Game News Tim Cain is dead

[Brother None]

Do you honestly believe Zenimax paid 6 million dollars to purchase a license which wasn't amazingly profitable and which the majority of the present market, especially the lucrative console section, doesn't really remember or care about?

I believe ZeniMax justifiably mistrusted the creative ability of Bethesda. Bethesda hasn't produced an original RPG IP since TES: Arena, and all those guys are gone. ZeniMax might not have trusted Todd and co to come up with something of their own. From a business viewpoint, that makes buying an IP "safe".

Then couple that to the fact that Fallout was simply the biggest available RPG IP.

Then couple that to the fact that fantasy was on a downhill slope at the time of Oblivion's release, and we're currently in a wave of run-and-gun action-RPGs; Mass Effect, Alpha Protocol, Fallout 3. Their timing really is quite good, with both a resurgence of PA titles right now (Rage, Borderlands, Hellgate: London, STALKER) and of said run-and-guns, ZM has a staff of marketers to keep track of those kind of trends.
Fantasy is always stronger than other genres, but there are also always sporadic uphill waves of genres like Sci Fi and even post-apocalyptic (like the PA film wave in the 80's).

Only after all of the above comes the consideration that yes, Todd Howard probably sent a pitch up to the ZM heads (the whole "we asked for it and got a note "you got it""-story is of course a lot of bull). That might have served to get their attention, to notify them of the IP or to give them an idea. It sure as hell wasn't the most important factor.

 

[Futile Rhetoric]

No, you're trying to be tricky and play word games.

Oh ho ho.

 

[Naked Ninja]

I believe ZeniMax justifiably mistrusted the creative ability of Bethesda

This is the statement I have a problem with. You're projecting your negative bias.

For the vast majority of the world Oblivion was an overwhelming success. You think Zenimax doesn't trust Bethesda's creativity? Come on. From their point of view Todd is a creative genius. Producers measure these things in dollars. I've little doubt that they (Beth) have won themselves the clout necessary to make requests like this, due to Oblivion. In the same way that Will Wright had the clout due to past success to prevent EA from killing a game they thought would sink (Sims).

 

[Brother None]

For the vast majority of the world Oblivion was an overwhelming success.

Oblivion was a financial success, which is all that matters to ZeniMax.

But making a sequel that's basically its predecessor but hacked down and making a whole new setting and world are two different things.

 

[hiver]

Zenimax cares only for the profit it will make, not for how good or correct sequel it will be.
They dont either care how hacked and cut up it is as long as they can hype it and sell it.

Thats probably where all that effort to make fallout fans look like some minority, hard corers and other trash talk came from. Minimizing damage in advance.

And they are developing it and PR-ing it to the Oblivion audience, thats clear to everyone.

 

[Naked Ninja]

Thats probably where all that effort to make fallout fans look like some minority, hard corers and other trash talk came from. Minimizing damage in advance.

No, that's the point I was making. "They" aren't going to any effort to make the fallout fans look like hardcore nuts. There is no need. The fans are doing it to themselves with this kind of overboard reaction to every single statement.

 

[hiver]

No, because people going overboard are few and Fallout fans are many.
I wasnt talking about that exactly.

 

[Brother None]

Your point is a fair one, NN, and one I have postulated myself multiple times, though less with a contrarious attitude (you're always contrarious, to be honest with you)

But I hope you realise that when someone says "attitude doesn't matter in this case", he's right when it comes to Fallout 3. It doesn't matter how nicely we might have spoken of Fallout 3 and its pen and paper heritage, Bethesda sees us a bunch of regressive, anti-immersive loonies.

 

[Krancor]

Thats probably where all that effort to make fallout fans look like some minority, hard corers and other trash talk came from. Minimizing damage in advance.

No, that's the point I was making. "They" aren't going to any effort to make the fallout fans look like hardcore nuts. There is no need. The fans are doing it to themselves with this kind of overboard reaction to every single statement.

Do you ever say anything that isn't completely retarded, o halfwit version of Cleve?

 

[galsiah]

No, that's the point I was making.

It might have made a little more sense to start with: "He made a daft analogy - so what? Why's that such a big deal?"
than to indulge in pointless, illogical justification for a clearly daft analogy.

Of course things look reasonable if you ignore what he said, think about what he might have been trying to say, then come to logical conclusions based on the facts. However, that doesn't make what he said any less daft - since it was daft.

Since it's a PR statement, it's not necessarily reasonable to judge it in a "Clearly he meant..." sense, since it's quite possible that the misleading analogy was intentional. Of course the general meaning makes sense - but the analogy is also in there for a reason: to make Bethesda look good through association. Since the analogy doesn't actually match the facts, it's reasonable to call them on it.

Is there an over-reaction? Very possibly.
Your defence of a clearly flawed point remains daft either way.

 

[Naked Ninja]

Your point is a fair one, NN, and one I have postulated myself multiple times, though less with a contrarious attitude (you're always contrarious, to be honest with you)

Cool, glad you can see my point. I'm not trying to be an ass, I just feel this kind of thing is pretty self sabotaging. Any legitimate feedback you give will get ignored because no one cares to look past the hijinx. I've fallen prey to it myself.

But I hope you realise that when someone says "attitude doesn't matter in this case", he's right when it comes to Fallout 3. It doesn't matter how nicely we might have spoken of Fallout 3 and its pen and paper heritage, Bethesda sees us a bunch of regressive, anti-immersive loonies.

Perhaps they do, perhaps they don't. But I think they'd certainly be more open to hearing from you without the constant whipping out of that photo of Pete and pages of forum derision. It does nothing but weaken ones position as a voice of reason. And after the 800th repeat of the same set of insults, what the hell's the point?

Do you ever say anything that isn't completely retarded, o halfwit version of Cleve?

Yeah, that time on the ITS forums, where I showed how your understanding of graphics rendering techniques/game engines is poor and your rants against Torque founded in said ignorance? There.

 

[Gnidrologist]

What are you, Ninja, some rabid fanboy? Be more open minded, mkay.

 

[Krancor]

Do you ever say anything that isn't completely retarded, o halfwit version of Cleve?

Yeah, that time on the ITS forums, where I showed how your understanding of graphics rendering techniques/game engines is poor and your rants against Torque founded in said ignorance? There.

That was you, too?

I was trying to be nice over there since you seemed to be trying to help (at least at first), but wow, you are a fucking retard.

Good luck scraping your rickety, pathetic game together with that piece of shit. I'd like to be more charitable towards anyone trying to make a game, but I hear everything you say as "Hit me!".

 

[Naked Ninja]

That was you, too?

I was trying to be nice over there since you seemed to be trying to help (at least at first), but wow, you are a fucking retard.

Good luck scraping your rickety, pathetic game together with that piece of shit. I'd like to be more charitable towards anyone trying to make a game, but I hear everything you say as "Hit me!".

A pleasure talking with you as always Krancor. :wink:

 

[hiver]

Your point is a fair one, NN, and one I have postulated myself multiple times, though less with a contrarious attitude (you're always contrarious, to be honest with you)

I'm not trying to be an ass, I just feel this kind of thing is pretty self sabotaging. Any legitimate feedback you give will get ignored because no one cares to look past the hijinx.


Perhaps they do, perhaps they don't. But I think they'd certainly be more open to hearing from you without the constant whipping out of that photo of Pete and pages of forum derision. It does nothing but weaken ones position as a voice of reason. And after the 800th repeat of the same set of insults, what the hell's the point?

It was made clear many times so far that they dont want to pay attention to any kind of suggestions from Fallout fans.
And majority of fans that registered on beth forums tried to do exactly that, make suggestions and talk about it in a reasonable manner.

And all that has been heard from the other side is some equivalnet of "those hardcorers are living in the past" or " yes we read forums... hehe... ", like just reading them makes any sense.
While whole threads get shreded after some time, automatically.

Since they are making a game for Oblivion audience, only in another setting any suggestion from Fallout fans about a Fallout game doesnt make any sense.
So there is no "be nicer and they will ...whatever."

 

[NiM82]

For the vast majority of the world Oblivion was an overwhelming success. You think Zenimax doesn't trust Bethesda's creativity? Come on. From their point of view Todd is a creative genius. Producers measure these things in dollars. I've little doubt that they (Beth) have won themselves the clout necessary to make requests like this, due to Oblivion. In the same way that Will Wright had the clout due to past success to prevent EA from killing a game they thought would sink (Sims).

If ZM trusted Todd/Bethesda to that extent and saw him as a real creative genius, why didn't they hand him the keys to their valuable MMO division (which, let's face it, has the potential to be their biggest earner)?. Instead, they've ground up created a new studio nearby and cherry picked external talent, who they've no experience in working with, and have given them their most important project.

That doesn't say much regarding their faith in Todd/Bethesda to me, espescially if it really is TES:O they are creating.

 

[Naked Ninja]

Well, I suppose you could break up a team of people who are producing products which make you large amounts of money for a large gamble. Or you could get them to keep making large profits on investment to offset the risk of your gamble? Thats what I'd do. Thats the smart thing to do.

Also, maybe Todd likes being at Bethesda and making sp RPGs.

 

[Claw]

What the fuck are you doing here? I thought you had a game to develop.

 

[elander_]

Isnt the Todd Howard one who really, really wanted it?
And he got the zenimax to give the cash for it promising who knows what.
I somehow doubt zenimax even knows what the heck is Fallout.

The story is that Bethesda publisher simply decided to acquire Fallout without ever consulting it's game studio which they are the owners. This happens all the time. It's considered a much lower financial risk to make a game like this than build your own setting. The market is full of old classic game remakes and movie adaptations.

If they truly love the setting, is irrelevant. Warren Specter loved DeusEx and look at DeusEx IW. Look at what Bethesda did with their own series with Oblivion.

Bethesda studios are property of the publisher and if they say they want a game based on Oblivion sandbox and dumbed down action combat then that's what they will have to do, no matter if they love it or not. Does anyone have doubts that if they have to chose between a dumbed down Fallout game that gives them maximum profit and a Fallout quality game what will be their choice in this matter?

 

[MetalCraze]

becoming an heroes.

 

[Balor]

Finally, a thread with that menaces with spikes of wit and nerd rage!
While we have those, Codex will not die.

And NN, while I appreciate your adoration of Bethesda from a business standpoint, it does not mean that they are perfect at everything, including PR.
Pete DID make a daft analogy indeed, and by defending it with 'mouth-frothing rabidness' you make yourself to look daft too.

 

[Black]

[*] We'll miss you Tim.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

No, Pete's talking about wanting to use the material after its originator is gone. Fallout's originator is gone no matter how much you want to put Tim Cain on a pedestal.

You keep saying that and yet Interplay is still here and they're still using the Fallout license. As you say, it may suck but they're certainly not dead. Unless of course, you mean the people behind Fallout but we've been over that ground too. Fallout's originator is either the people (who attempted to buy the license) or the company (which is still using the license). Pick one. Neither is dead. Seems like Pete's analogy is full of fail to me.

Trying to be tricky, again. Failing, again. But I do give you points for trying to tie Hellgate's failure in with its camera viewpoint and thus the hardcore fallout fans hatred of the non-isomentric view in F3. Good try.

Yes, I thought it was quite good pointing out how they broke a successful formula which worked quite well in the originals, only to have their game suck. Lessons might be learned there.

In the same way that the bits of the Star Wars empire have been scattered around and "no longer exist" in their original form

Except the originators of the original Star Wars property exist and continue to produce the movies/use the licence.

So you missed Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel as well then along with the planned Fallout MMO? I'd say those are attempts to continue using a licence right there.

because if you're going to make a post-apocalyptic RPG, it may as well be Fallout, right?

Oh please, a tiny percentage of their customer base give a damn about the Fallout license. After Oblivion they could just as easily have made anything else. I genuinely believe they paid that money and have gone to that effort because they actually loved the games and want to take a go at it.

Yeah because we all know companies spend millions of dollars on a license when "nobody gives a damn about it". I know that's cute for an indie developer but it doesn't work in the real world.

They may not be competent in the execution but your attempts to paint this perfectly benevolent sentiment as some sort of cape-swirling villainy are just tired.

You know, if this is all too much for you, you can just give up. Again.

Before:

Do you honestly believe Zenimax paid 6 million dollars to purchase a license which wasn't amazingly profitable and which the majority of the present market, especially the lucrative console section, doesn't really remember or care about?

Come on, your average Producer, on discovering that a fantasy game made lots of profit, goes to their developers and says "make another fantasy game"

After:

Well, I suppose you could break up a team of people who are producing products which make you large amounts of money for a large gamble. Or you could get them to keep making large profits on investment to offset the risk of your gamble? Thats what I'd do. Thats the smart thing to do.

Also, maybe Todd likes being at Bethesda and making sp RPGs.

Wow, it took less than a page for you to do a complete Flip-Flop.

 

[Acleacius]

If bethseda was the bush administration, who would each represent?

pete hines = dana Perino? Maybe da bush himself? He's got the lying and stupidity down.



Damn, I wish I could find that photoshop of pete as hitler riding in that vehicle giving the zig hiel salute, posted here in the forums. Maybe the finest piece of aritistic works in the 21st century.

 

[Cimmerian Nights]