Game News Torment Kickstarter Update #25: Combat System Vote!

[MicoSelva]

Now goddamit, the codex is supposed to be loud and opinionated. Where the fuck is an angry and articulate supporter or denouncer of either type?

TToN will have relatively few encounters compared to a combat-heavy game like Project Eternity, so the main argument towards RTwP (it's faster) is invalidated, as we won't need to be swiftly mowing through trash mobs.

For me TB combat also usually looks better, as my attention is usually focused on the currently active unit, instead of the whole battlefield moving at once, so I can enjoy the carefully-crafted animations.

 

[Scruffy]

I'm trying to understand why the codex is so overwhelmingly in support of TB (which I like in F1/2, Disciples 2, Expeditions: Conquistador, Silent Storm 2, Underrail, Worms, etc), so I looked through the TToN thread (after Update 24, the combat one). I also checked the backer-only combat forum-thing. I'm having trouble finding well articulated arguments in support of or against either mode, with the most discernible and consistent arguments being:

• TB is slow and clunky, not as well suited for a noncombat-focused game
  
• RTwP relies on less character (PC) skill, and more on the player's physical reflexes, thus making it less RPG and more ARGP
  
• The resource (AP) management of TB allows for more diversity of character builds (can create more unique combat builds, since you could presumably affect the amount of AP and cost of certain actions based on skills, traits or whatever)

Now goddamit, the codex is supposed to be loud and opinionated. Where the fuck is an angry and articulate supporter or denouncer of either type?

Real time is ok when you have shitloads of trash mobs coming at you, like in icewind dale. Since this game is NOT supposed to be about combat anyway, my idea was that the combat encounters would be few but meaningful. Turn Based works well in that case, because combat is more tactical and, I’ll dare say, “deep” in TC than in the RTwP used in the infinity engine games. The combat in the original Torment was meh, you pause, you queue up some spells, put the tanks in front and unpause. At least in BG2 combat was a bit more tactical and interesting. And that’s why you had to pause it continually to decide the next move, which is what turn base is anyway. When 20 kobolds came at you, you just activated the artificial intelligence and let your companions do the work with their bows and arrows anyway.

So, if the combat is to be scarce but meaningful, TB is better. The alternative is continually pausing to ponder the next move. Which is… turn based anyway then.

Of course, if instead the combat will be a lot of meaningless filler a la first BG, then the promises made were broken and I’ll sue everyone everywhere.

 

[Scruffy]

i looked around but can't seem to find it anywhere, so maybe i'm wrong, but wasn't this supposed to be TB since the very beginning?

No.

My bad then

 

[Machocruz]

I'm having trouble finding well articulated arguments in support of or against either mode

Because it's not cut and dry, it's conditional, imo. These different combat modes are simply methods of management. Any argument for or against either has to consider what kind of things there will be to managed, and to what degree, which only InXile know, unless they want people to vote on everything else that goes into combat as well.

 

[AstroZombie]

From NeoGAF

I would like combat akin to Dragon Age: Origins. Being able to give my followers priority orders to follow and watching them execute them was all kinds of satisfying.

Remember, your vote is worth as much as his.

 

[Black]

I don't feel the need to go to OPINION wars with neogaf/reddit/4chan/whatever since I'm oh so above that.
If inXile doesn't know which system is better (and they do) and lets plebes affect their game that much, well, too bad..

 

[Aurelius]

Voted for indifference, since I honestly don't care. Either is fine with me.

 

[agris]

oasis789 That's pretty faint condemnation. You'll see a lot of supporting posts in the TB vote option voicing ignorance over contextual pausing.

 

[Machocruz]

From NeoGAF

Being able to give my followers priority orders to follow and watching them execute them was all kinds of satisfying.

I bet. Modern video game audience: wants movies they can sometimes have a say in.

 

[hiver]

With turn based combat you feel the game controls you whereas with real-time pause and play you feel you control the game!

for fuck sake...

 

[Athelas]

Can't wait for the poll about whether or not to include romanceable waifu's.

 

[Machocruz]

I fail to see the reason in your argument Eli. All the classic western RPG like Baldur's Gate, Planescape Torment etc were all games that opened up for some tactics. I don't see how turn based combat would mean more tactics.

Now compare those games to ToEE, JA2, FFT, which were TB and allowed even more tactics. Then maybe you will see, hmm?

 

[Frusciante]

Normally I prefer RTWP. But from the way they've described the crises and combat in general I think TB is a much better fit for this game.

So voted TB.

Some reasons:
- few, meaningfull combat encounters instead of plenty of combat. So likely very challenging fights that require a lot of planning. Also not trash mobs so no need for quick solutions for fights.
- Crises sound like they contain puzzle-like elements. So I would like to carefully plan every move. Especially if there are time constraints (as in the example crisis) I prefer the control of TB.
- no need for team AI so hopefully more time for enemy AI, scope, dialoque etc.

Still, in general I find TB to be a little bit too sterile or something. I like the dynamic, simultaneous nature of RTWP. But as said, TB seems to fit the concept of the crises much better.

Also I hope the turns for TB are party based and not seperate (the sequantial TB they're talking about) for each individual on the battlefield.

Edit: they clearly feel that TB is the better choice for their game themselves. I'm fine with them asking for opinions but hopefully they will stick to their vision. Going for the suboptimal choice based on popular opinion would be a sign of very weak character.

 

[The Brazilian Slaughter]

https://torment.inxile-entertainment.com/store



It's an advisory vote. Also note that a vote for "undecided/don't care" is a vote for what inXile prefer, which is currently turn-based.

Top expensive.

 

[agris]

oasis789 That's pretty faint condemnation. You'll see a lot of supporting posts in the TB vote option voicing ignorance over contextual pausing.

[...] a preponderance of voters on one side appears to more uninformed or poorly reasoned than the other. Not that every individual on one side is a fields medalist.

That's exactly my counter point, I'm seeing that ignorance on both sides.

 

[hiver]

Still, in general I find TB to be a little bit too sterile or something. I like the dynamic, simultaneous nature of RTWP. But as said, TB seems to fit the concept of the crises much better.

Try Age of decadence. I usually forget to breathe when im in a fight.

That feeling comes from systems that are not designed to the full potential - not from Tb itself.

 

[hiver]

oasis789 That's pretty faint condemnation. You'll see a lot of supporting posts in the TB vote option voicing ignorance over contextual pausing.

[...] a preponderance of voters on one side appears to more uninformed or poorly reasoned than the other. Not that every individual on one side is a fields medalist.

That's exactly my point, I'm seeing that ignorance on both sides.

I see much more ignorance on one side.

And then i dont see a single mention of wanting combat encounters to be deep and tactical affairs at all. Just the "better flow" - actionz! - visceral and other such mass market mindless drone shit.
Which isnt something that fits a Torment game, is it?

 

[agris]

oasis789 That's pretty faint condemnation. You'll see a lot of supporting posts in the TB vote option voicing ignorance over contextual pausing.

[...] a preponderance of voters on one side appears to more uninformed or poorly reasoned than the other. Not that every individual on one side is a fields medalist.

That's exactly my point, I'm seeing that ignorance on both sides.

I see much more ignorance on one side.

And then i dont see a single mention of wanting combat encounters to be deep and tactical affairs at all. Just the "better flow" - actionz! - visceral and other such mass market mindless drone shit.
Which isnt something that fits a Torment game, is it?

No, but I don't think deep and tactical combat was part of PST either (not that I wouldn't like that, just that it isn't the mold in which PST was cast).

edit: clarified, it could be, just isn't presently

 

[hiver]

Really? Am i supposed to just accept that because you say so?

And pay attentionto the fact that combat cannot be deep if it isnt tactical.
And explain to me how a deeper, more important combat is not in the mold of PST?

was that game not deep or tried to be as best as it could? Was it supposed to be an action fest?

 

[agris]

No, I'm trying to be unbiased. There appear to be pretty equal proportions of uninformed voters in both threads. I don't have a dog in this fight, so to speak, and could be convinced either combat mode could fit. That's why I'm posting in this thread actually, because I assumed the community here has thought about it a lot harder than me.

hiver not sure if you're trolling me or not.. but do you think PST combat was deep and tactical? We're talking combat, right? To pivot and discuss narrative or other mechanics would be irrelevant to the TB vs RTwP discussion in the context of TToN.

 

[Infinitron]

Joined:
Apr 16, 2004
Messages:
19

Troll sleeper account detected.

 

[agris]

Nah, just haven't been active in this community. Anyway, I'm asking for arguments and purposefully trying to not be inflammatory!

 

[Fargus]

Voted for real-time with pause combat

 

[Infinitron]

Nah, just haven't been active in this community. Anyway, I'm asking for arguments and purposefully trying to not be inflammatory!

Let me demonstrate, then.

oasis789 That's pretty faint condemnation. You'll see a lot of supporting posts in the TB vote option voicing ignorance over contextual pausing.

[...] a preponderance of voters on one side appears to more uninformed or poorly reasoned than the other. Not that every individual on one side is a fields medalist.

That's exactly my point, I'm seeing that ignorance on both sides.

No, I'm trying to be unbiased. There appear to be pretty equal proportions of uninformed voters in both threads.

wat??

 

[Black]

Joined:
Apr 16, 2004
Messages:
19

Troll sleeper account detected.

Not every fucking one is a troll because they don't feel it's necessary to spam site news with inane bs, FFS!!