Game News Torment: Tides of Numenera announced for PS4 and Xbox One, gets new trailer

[a mod]

Lol no. It is true as long as society is christan, and it is a given of this aspect of society and not the law itself.
Look at Europe - it isn't a christian society for a very long time (those question that it never been christianic in full sense of that word because of Catholic heresy we leave behind brackets), moral decay has reached unprecedented abyss.

That's just fact. That is nothing to do with 'society'. Before it europe was christian it had much different laws. Since then they have basically stayed the same due to momentum. But they have a basis in morality that also has a basis in greek philosophy. Before that laws were much more arbitrary, just like the ideas people pull up out of thin air for the train 'problem'.

When someone starts to produce new entities, Occam's razor apper and kill him very violently.


Occam's razor is coming.

You are babbling and don't know the subject matter.

If you take real philosophy and logic then it is easy to spot marxist crap like this ala sartre. This is moderntarded nonsense and a giant step backwards in western philosophy to sophism bullshit of thousands of years ago which throws out thousands of years of philisophy.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

I doubt the console port is being funded by backers money. Backers money has ended long time ago. The game production is certainly being funded by Wasteland 2 revenue now. We can only guess for how long it has been funded that way, but I would be shocked if it was for less than a few months at least. My guess would be about a year.

About criticism of Lurker King's dilemma: you all don't get that this dilemma main point is that inaction is equal to an action. Both give their own specific results and it is erroneous to assume that if you don't push a fat man, you are less of a killer than if you let the train kill people on the rails.

 

[Lurker King]

The reality is YOU SIMPLY DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT to make such decisions. The fat guy's life belongs to him.

That is because you are only thinking in the original version of the dilemma, while I’m considering whether it makes sense to calculate the value of human lives. The point of the dilemma is to tease our intuitions about whether we should sacrifice one life to save more or not. The fact that you need to push the fat guy in the first version is implausible because the guy is just a bystander, you need to personally push him, etc. Of course you wouldn’t do that, that is murder. However, the fat guy just gets in the way of what really matters in the discussion and that is why I said that we should change the scenario a little bit to make it more plausible. Consider a different scenario: a mine collapsed and you have the resources to save one guy or a group of five people. What would you do? Would you still insist that this choice is not yours to make? Of course not. Notice that doctors, firefighters, and many others will be forced to make these difficult moral choices in emergencies and they will use some moral criteria. The question is which criteria they should use and why. If in the mine you have to choose between saving Louis Pasteur and five regular miners, what would you do? If you simply decide to save the biggest number under the excuse that all lives matter I would say that you are a lunatic.

 

[Fenix]

That's just fact.

What is "just the fact"?

That is nothing to do with 'society'. Before it europe was christian it had much different laws. Since then they have basically stayed the same due to momentum. But they have a basis in morality that also has a basis in greek philosophy. Before that laws were much more arbitrary, just like the ideas people pull up out of thin air for the train 'problem'.

That fucking load of assumptions.
Before? When? The same? Laws are stayed the same? You fucking kidding? Do you realize that todays Europe succesfully implemented twhat was proposed by Trotsky and what Nazis were doing, if we look at family institute - there were plans to take children from their parents and raise them out of family with state caregivers (luckily he ended with icepick in the skull, thanks to Stalin and Ramon Mercader), and such politic was used by Nazi German by the way - they took children whos they treat as arian enough torise them as Germans, don't remember the name of the unit which did so.
It is the same trend today, especially in Nordic countries. It is damn social engineering, nothing more.
Also if you say the same laws, and you mean constant pressure of various homo-paedo-zoo-philes that almost demand special privileges for them, and that shape society for their own needs "sexual education" included... I don't know what the fuck you talking about.

If you take real philosophy and logic

Occam's razor rip you into pieces. Let's not talk more, I don't ineterst in "real philosophy", it's better to ask about it some Afghani.

 

[Lurker King]

About criticism of Lurker King's dilemma: you all don't get that this dilemma main point is that inaction is equal to an action. Both give their own specific results and it is erroneous to assume that if you don't push a fat man, you are less of a killer than if you let the train kill people on the rails.

You are not a killer if you don't take action because you are not responsible for the unstoppable Trolley in the first place.

 

[Fenix]

Consider a different scenario: a mine collapsed and you have the resources to save one guy or a group of five people. What would you do? Would you still insist that this choice is not yours to make? Of course not.

Of course not because it absolutely different scenario lol. You decide only for whom you will save, and not who you will kill.

If in the mine you have to choose between saving Louis Pasteur and five regular miners, what would you do?

Five miners?

If you simply decide to save the biggest number under the excuse that all lives matter I would say that you are a lunatic.

From which country are you from?
Because someone on the top of the society piramide need your mother's, wife's, daughter's, girlfrend's, friend's, dog's organs, because they are so much more important then your relatives lifes.
Why the fuck you never read?

About criticism of Lurker King's dilemma: you all don't get that this dilemma main point is that inaction is equal to an action.

True.

Both give their own specific results and it is erroneous to assume that if you don't push a fat man, you are less of a killer than if you let the train kill people on the rails.

Not true.
You are not a killer if you didn't do anything because to did anything mean to kill fat guy.
It is the same wrong dihotomy.

You are not a killer if you don't take action because you are not responsible for the unstoppable Trolley in the first place.

Wrong. You are responsible for failure to render aid, it is the Law of state and moral Law. No matter if you are accountant and not a firefighter or someone else who should deal with that kind of troubles.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

About criticism of Lurker King's dilemma: you all don't get that this dilemma main point is that inaction is equal to an action. Both give their own specific results and it is erroneous to assume that if you don't push a fat man, you are less of a killer than if you let the train kill people on the rails.

You are not a killer if you don't take action because you are not responsible for the unstoppable Trolley in the first place.

Choice you made of not intervening resulted in someone death. You killed someone. Maybe "killer" is a bad word due to negative connotations, but the results are the same.

 

[Lurker King]

Divinity Original Sin was decline, right Lurker King ? Another tryhard. Not that it means anything, just mentioning, but wasn't D:OS Codex GOTY?.

The only reason why you perceived me as tryhard is that you have lower standards than I do. I always thought that Disneyland: Original Sin was overrated garbage. Let us see: MMO drag queen shitty art, broken combat system, absurd amounts of trash mobs, horrible writing, retarded story, etc. You are talking as if GOTY was an infallible indicator of quality. It is not. You would see that if you were not a gullible individual that is so easily impressed by fads and hype. The only thing it took was a majority of BG fans unhappy with an unimaginative PoE beta. They praised D:OS environment effect combos as if they were the best thing since the invention of chocolate cake because they wanted another broken BG2 with overpowered spells. The fact is that the combos are not that great and they cannot compensate for the game flaws. I bet that most people that voted for D:OS didn’t finish the game.

 

[Fenix]

Choice you made of not intervening resulted in someone death.

Take an action - is a action, not to take a ation is an action too, evryone who played any wargame/tactical/strategic game know that.
Superfluous to say it is all a choice.
A mean I agree.

I bet that most people that voted for D:OS didn’t finish the game.

I didn't, but I didn't vote.

 

[Lurker King]

Wrong. You are responsible for failure to render aid, it is the Law of state and moral Law.

Choice you made of not intervening resulted in someone death. You killed someone. Maybe "killer" is a bad word due to negative connotations, but the results are the same.

You are not morally (or legally) responsible for not providing aid if the only way to provide aid is by murdering innocent people. The deaths were not caused by your indisposition to murder an individual, but by whoever is the responsible for the ungoverned Trolley.

 

[Sordid MCA/Prosper Hybryd]

The only usefulness of the trolley dilemma is to show the difference between consequentialist and deontological approaches to ethics. Consequentialists try to calculate the best possible outcome. So they think like... 5 lives matter more than 1 life, but, on the other side, this one guy is cooler than others, hence maybe his life is more important, and so on, and so on. Deontologists don't care about outcome, they believe only in principles. E.g. killing is just wrong so I shouldn't do anything at all, or I can't sacrifice one guy to save others, because I shouldn't treat him only as a tool, blah-blah-blah (Kantian staff about categorical imperative and respect towards humanity in yourself and others).

I think the trolley problem is too formal and abstract. While I am more leaning to deontological ethics (i.e. -> "don't do anything"), I don't think that it's possible to find right answer without getting into a real situation. Because in a real situation there will be a shitload of morally relevant facts which may change my attitude completely. I mean, in any case, killing of the fat guy is morally wrong, but maybe I will find that not killing him is even more morally problematic.

In any case, I think, maybe we (you) should continue this discussion about the handbook thought experiments in applied ethics in some more apropriate place, i.e. (((Retardo Land))).

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

I wonder why there hasn't been as much whining about Larian also making console version.

In Torment's case the console port is coming out at the same time as the PC release. So there is a very distinct possibility that backer money funded the console "port".

What? That's not how budgeting works, mate. They've designed the budget for $4 million, 3 years ago, and at that point backer money was locked into the PC version. They can't just go and spend the backer money on something else this late in development, because the backer money is effectively already spent.

It's like you people think companies keep a "Kickstarter" pool of money on the side and only use it for Kickstarter games. Christ Almighty.

[
In D:OS's case, the console port was released long after the PC title, was funded by their profits of retail sales rather than backer money, and added lots of features for PC players. Comparing the two makes InXile look very, very bad.

Nope. In Wasteland 2 case, console paort was released a year after the PC title, but don't didn't stop people from whining.

Got any other theories?

 

[Zeriel]

Kickstarter is mostly about how things look. Obviously they didn't literally save a bunch of Kickstarter money for a console port months down the line, but it doesn't look good, and it reflects a lack of respect for the people who handed them money. Ultimately it doesn't matter whether this is true or not. That the question arises at all is enough to erode trust, and trust is the bankable resource you're drawing on when you try to raise money with Kickstarter.

By the way, these aren't "theories". They are my opinion of how people view what's going on with Torment.

 

[DeepOcean]

The problem here isn't even the announcement of the console version, there isn't objective proof the game is being dumb down for the consoles but the true issue is that developers when placed on a corner are known to BS ALOT to save face. Peeople are just assuming the worst because if you think they lied to you and the game was indeed dumb down for consoles, you aren't disappointed and don't think yourself as a fool. We live on a kickstarter cynism overload era for a series of reasons and in great part for InXile, people didn't forget the Ubisoft style marketing Fargo was doing for Wasteland 2. If Wasteland 2 were a good quality RPG, Fargo's reputation wouldn't leave his company open to questioning like this.

You see a guy doing BS PR spinning all around, it is natural for you to expect every single move from him being evil after a point.

 

[FeelTheRads]

It's a belief, until I see the game itself.

Based on what. No, really, I'm terribly curious to know where such a belief comes from? From all the successful ventures into multiplatform development? From inXile's long track record of providing what they promise?

If you actually think that at no point did they stop and consider how the features they implement will work on consoles, you are not only retarded, you are braindead.

No one claiming TToN is getting dumbed down has anything to go on apparently.

Actually history is something to go by. You, on the other hand, you have "belief". Cool story, bro.

that have no console versions, no dumbed down gameplay, no crappy writing - BG:EE + Siege of Dragonspear, Pillars of Eternity.

Oh yeah, you have strawman arguments too. Even better.

At least not until we see the game.

And then? Let me guess, if it's shit then I have to wait for the director's cut and consoles never had anything to do with it.

 

[prodigydancer]

Backers money has ended long time ago.

I understand that a million isn't quite what it used to be but we're talking about spending $5m in four years and most of that time the game wasn't even in full production - by inXile's own admission. So, unless they spent backers' money on something entirely unrelated to TToN - which is a fraud anyway because nobody gave that right - I really don't see how your math works.

 

[Hoodoo]

They got more than 4 millions out of it after the kickstarter cut and taxes. Obsidian even gave them their engine. That's enough to pay a full time 20 man team for a bit more than 2 years. Or a full time 10 men team over 4 years. If you aren't developing the next AAA 4KHD cinematic experience for nu-gen consoles it should be fine. But it looks like they changed their plans

 

[AwesomeButton]

The only reason why you perceived me as tryhard is that you have lower standards than I do.
...
You are talking as if GOTY was an infallible indicator of quality. It is not.

Not just me, it seems the majority of the Codex has lower standards than you do

In your previous post you said it contains decline, but you don't mention it in this post. What I would call decline is Fallout 3 for example. Whatever shortcomings D:OS has, be they widely acknowledged or a matter of taste, I don't think the game is seen as "decline" here.

I always thought that Disneyland: Original Sin was overrated garbage. Let us see: MMO drag queen shitty art, broken combat system, absurd amounts of trash mobs, horrible writing, retarded story, etc.

Ok, you are not a tryhard, it's just your posts and reasoning that wrongly portray you like one.

You would see that if you were not a gullible individual that is so easily impressed by fads and hype.

I approached the game without following the evolution of Codex opinion or arguments about it. I don't think you'll see me present in any D:OS discussions here on the Codex if you do a search. I had played a pirated version of the original, dropped it (for the Underrail alpha, I believe). A friend of mine finished D:OS and recommended it, and I bought the enhanced edition which was at 50% off during Siege of Dragonspear's launch. You can find the post where I proclaim this discount as the best thing about SoD.

It's the same approach I have towards TToN. I have hardly (if at all) posted in the TToN thread, and I don't read it, just because I want to approach it when it's released, without any opinions influencing me, although I wouldn't go as far as Roguey and wait a full year or so for the final patch.

The PoE beta taught me that getting burned out on a game before it's released affects my perceptions of it too much when I see the release. I'm pretty sure that's the trap some people are falling into with TToN, when they start issuing verdicts based on information that's so incomplete and inconclusive. This way one rigs one's own opinion and that of people who are listening to him.

That's much more fitting the description of "a guillable individual" - one who declares a game shit based on a bit of news about changes to a work in progress, and conditions himself to believe it's shit before having seen it.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Kickstarter is mostly about how things look. .

How things look to ignorant cretins with no comprehension of how budgeting works?

Obviously they didn't literally save a bunch of Kickstarter money for a console port months down the line

Correct. In other words, we're now at page 16 of discussing a problem that only exists in people's heads.

and it reflects a lack of respect for the people who handed them money

Giving someone money doesn't give you a license to accuse them of scams , fraud and theft, based on absolutely nothing other than your own hallucinations.

We know that they didn't spend backer money on console ports, because backer money is simply already spent. And there's no evidence whatsoever of any dumbing-down going on, either. That's it, those are the facts. The rest is just people hallucinating after sniffing their own farts a little bit too much, because the basements usually have poor ventilation.

 

[Daedalos]

TLDR;

- UI changes, healthpool changes and more, are not enough to warrant the "dumbed down for consoles" sticker, since it's not finished in the iterative phases, and since we don't have the full product to judge yet. The beta also don't have a "console" feel in any way.
- No proof has been put forth, that the kickstarter money was used for anything other than the development of the PC version first and foremost.
- It's not as hard to do a console port of a PC-game anymore, and certainly not a game like Torment. Which means the ressources put into it, are manageable let alone cost-effective.
- Techland paid for the console port

 

[Kev Inkline]

The only usefulness of the trolley dilemma is to show the difference between consequentialist and deontological approaches to ethics. Consequentialists try to calculate the best possible outcome. So they think like... 5 lives matter more than 1 life, but, on the other side, this one guy is cooler than others, hence maybe his life is more important, and so on, and so on. Deontologists don't care about outcome, they believe only in principles. E.g. killing is just wrong so I shouldn't do anything at all, or I can't sacrifice one guy to save others, because I shouldn't treat him only as a tool, blah-blah-blah (Kantian staff about categorical imperative and respect towards humanity in yourself and others).

I think the trolley problem is too formal and abstract. While I am more leaning to deontological ethics (i.e. -> "don't do anything"), I don't think that it's possible to find right answer without getting into a real situation. Because in a real situation there will be a shitload of morally relevant facts which may change my attitude completely. I mean, in any case, killing of the fat guy is morally wrong, but maybe I will find that not killing him is even more morally problematic.

In any case, I think, maybe we (you) should continue this discussion about the handbook thought experiments in applied ethics in some more apropriate place, i.e. (((Retardo Land))).

I couldn't agree more with most of what you said.

However, when it comes to abstractness of the trolley probllem, self-driving cars (or rather their programmers) are already facing that.

cf.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...e-famous-and-creepy-trolley-problem/#comments

But please, mods relocate this idle commentary in this thread so that TTON bash-fest may continue.

 

[a mod]

The only usefulness of the trolley dilemma is to show the difference between consequentialist and deontological approaches to ethics. Consequentialists try to calculate the best possible outcome. So they think like... 5 lives matter more than 1 life, but, on the other side, this one guy is cooler than others, hence maybe his life is more important, and so on, and so on. Deontologists don't care about outcome, they believe only in principles. E.g. killing is just wrong so I shouldn't do anything at all, or I can't sacrifice one guy to save others, because I shouldn't treat him only as a tool, blah-blah-blah (Kantian staff about categorical imperative and respect towards humanity in yourself and others).

I think the trolley problem is too formal and abstract. While I am more leaning to deontological ethics (i.e. -> "don't do anything"), I don't think that it's possible to find right answer without getting into a real situation. Because in a real situation there will be a shitload of morally relevant facts which may change my attitude completely. I mean, in any case, killing of the fat guy is morally wrong, but maybe I will find that not killing him is even more morally problematic.

In any case, I think, maybe we (you) should continue this discussion about the handbook thought experiments in applied ethics in some more apropriate place, i.e. (((Retardo Land))).

I couldn't agree more with most of what you said.

However, when it comes to abstractness of the trolley probllem, self-driving cars (or rather their programmers) are already facing that.

cf.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...e-famous-and-creepy-trolley-problem/#comments

But please, mods relocate this idle commentary in this thread so that TTON bash-fest may continue.

I think it's a pretty good metaphor for 2orment dev cycle.

Plz dont push the fat man on me, I will get off the tracks sir.

Just imagine azrael pushes the fat man and his bulk kills all three of us, At the same time infinitron switches tracks and hits the other passenger. Then azrael jumps off the bridge out of guilt.

Everyone dead now. Oops sozzy.

 

[LizardWizard]

because backer money is simply already spent..

On porting W2 to consoles.... fig and probably lots of blow.

 

[Darkzone]

The only usefulness of the trolley dilemma is to show the difference between consequentialist and deontological approaches to ethics. Consequentialists try to calculate the best possible outcome. So they think like... 5 lives matter more than 1 life, but, on the other side, this one guy is cooler than others, hence maybe his life is more important, and so on, and so on. Deontologists don't care about outcome, they believe only in principles. E.g. killing is just wrong so I shouldn't do anything at all, or I can't sacrifice one guy to save others, because I shouldn't treat him only as a tool, blah-blah-blah (Kantian staff about categorical imperative and respect towards humanity in yourself and others).

I think the trolley problem is too formal and abstract. While I am more leaning to deontological ethics (i.e. -> "don't do anything"), I don't think that it's possible to find right answer without getting into a real situation. Because in a real situation there will be a shitload of morally relevant facts which may change my attitude completely. I mean, in any case, killing of the fat guy is morally wrong, but maybe I will find that not killing him is even more morally problematic.

In any case, I think, maybe we (you) should continue this discussion about the handbook thought experiments in applied ethics in some more apropriate place, i.e. (((Retardo Land))).

I agree that this trolly case is to abstract for a simple answer. But i disagree that this belongs into the (Retardo Land), because this is the direct question that T:ToN asks: What does one live matter? And by talking about it we talk about T:ToN or at least about what McComb wanted to do with it.
At the end (when all possible conclusions are drawn) this trolley example shows us that we are living in an imperfect universe.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

Backers money has ended long time ago.

I understand that a million isn't quite what it used to be but we're talking about spending $5m in four years and most of that time the game wasn't even in full production - by inXile's own admission. So, unless they spent backers' money on something entirely unrelated to TToN - which is a fraud anyway because nobody gave that right - I really don't see how your math works.

Wasteland 2 production which was shorter than Torment, cost about 5 million dollars. Art for W2 was not made in house but bought on the flea market. Heard 2d assets are more expensive than 3d assets to make.