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Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Luckmann

Arcane
Zionist Agent
Joined
Jul 20, 2009
Messages
3,759
Location
Scandinavia
It's totally dead in Sweden. PC section is a shameful display at Gamestop.
Yeah, they've basically had to resaddle into selling gaming merchandise. Which is, honestly, pretty neat, considering that that has historically been pretty hard to find in Sweden. But damn if I don't miss good ol' gaming stores. These days you just get a copy that requires Steam and downloads anyway, not even GOG standalone installers, so why bother?

I miss the days of cool boxes with neat shit and games that were "really yours", to be dug out and installed years later.
 

Luckmann

Arcane
Zionist Agent
Joined
Jul 20, 2009
Messages
3,759
Location
Scandinavia


I hope people remember to ask about:
  • Foci.
  • Factions.
  • Legacies.
  • Stronghold.
  • Orchestral soundtrack.
  • Why a game pitched to and paid for by PC gamers have suffered the same consolization issues (UI, etc) as Wasteland 2: Director's Cut did, even though they promised the whole time that nothing like that would happen.
  • Why they kept all the cuts secret almost up until release, and only apologized after it was revealed.
  • Why they're dodging these questions instead of addressing them.
It's the questions that they keep dodging in a very obvious way, so if people could push those buttons, that'd be great. Bonus points if you manage to get banned, make them lose their temper, or actually get answers out of them.

Edit: Just for reference, here's the timezones.
 
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FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
Well, I mean you can type anything I think (well, I suppose short of whatever they forbid), but last time it was BN that was sending questions he chose to McComb, he didn't read the chat himself, I think.

Anyway, the stream is about PST so I don't mind if questions are limited to that, as long as I don't get to hear about McComb's great struggles for progressiveness again.
 
Last edited:

Luckmann

Arcane
Zionist Agent
Joined
Jul 20, 2009
Messages
3,759
Location
Scandinavia
Well, I mean you can type anything I think (well, I suppose short of whatever they forbid), but last time it was BN that was sending questions he chose to McComb, he didn't read the chat himself, I think.

Anyway, the stream is about PST so I don't mind if questions are limited to that
They're doing it as part of ToN campaigning, though, not PS:T for the sake of PS:T.

as long as I don't get to hear about McComb's great struggles for progressiveness again.
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
Jesus, that face looks even worse with more of the body shown. One of the worst photoshops I've seen... face badly pasted over hair and everything badly pasted over what I'm guessing is the 3d model from the game.
 

Sizzle

Arcane
Joined
Feb 17, 2012
Messages
2,473
Callistege said:
I'm a developing ultra-dimensional hive mind!

To all of you who extensively played the beta - does this come through in her personality and actions?

I only played a bit of the alpha (it was still horribly unoptimized back then, so I couldn't play too much), but I don't remember either her or Aligern being at all interesting.
 

Luckmann

Arcane
Zionist Agent
Joined
Jul 20, 2009
Messages
3,759
Location
Scandinavia
Jesus, that face looks even worse with more of the body shown. One of the worst photoshops I've seen... face badly pasted over hair and everything badly pasted over what I'm guessing is the 3d model from the game.
I actually think it looks marginally better, I just don't understand what the "card" is for. That's not how it's presented in the last early access version, and they had said that the UI was finalized. Am I missing something that's evident to everyone else?

I absolutely hate her voice, though. It's not that the voice-acting is bad or anything, it's just that instant hatred rises from the bowels of my soul when I hear her trashy hormonally-challenged middle-aged woman-who's-smoked-eighteen-packs-per-day voice. They could've done some auto-tuned dimensional-echo thing out of it instead, but nope, we're opting for "absolute normie, but wait; there's more!" here, apparently. If the voice files are accessible I'm actually thinking about adding some redundant and silly effect that can mask her voice yet still be considered in tune with the character. I dunno. Goddamn.

Callistege said:
I'm a developing ultra-dimensional hive mind!

To all of you who extensively played the beta - does this come through in her personality and actions?

I only played a bit of the alpha (it was still horribly unoptimized back then, so I couldn't play too much), but I don't remember either her or Aligern being at all interesting.

They're not. She basically tells you the whole deal once you get a chance to talk to her. It's not that interesting and you're pretty much lore-dumped on again.

Basically, she got entangled with all(?) her parallel selves, and she now shares consciousness, but not persona, with them, on some level or another. Some have killed themselves, some want to stop it, and others (most) of them are fine with it. She's looking for The Changing God hoping he can help her with her "condition", so that should she ever want to undo it, she can. It's not very interesting, truth be told, and despite having teleportation in combat for some reason, I don't think it actually comes up mechanically in a narrative fashion (such as "could you teleport over there and pull that lever?" or "does this look the same in all realities?").

I swear to god, if the resolution to this ends up revolving around the player telling her whether she should sever the connection or not, and that severing it is the selfish choice (because the others die or whatever), I'm going to end up killing a writer for being this obvious.
 
Last edited:

Sizzle

Arcane
Joined
Feb 17, 2012
Messages
2,473
Callistege said:
I'm a developing ultra-dimensional hive mind!

To all of you who extensively played the beta - does this come through in her personality and actions?

I only played a bit of the alpha (it was still horribly unoptimized back then, so I couldn't play too much), but I don't remember either her or Aligern being at all interesting.

They're not. She basically tells you the whole deal once you get a chance to talk to her. It's not that interesting and you're pretty much lore-dumped on again.

Basically, she got entangled with all(?) her parallel selves, and she now shares consciousness, but not persona, with them, on some level or another. Some have killed themselves, some want to stop it, and others (most) of them are fine with it. She's looking for The Changing God hoping he can help her with her "condition", so that should she ever want to undo it, she can. It's not very interesting, truth be told, and despite having teleportation in combat for some reason, I don't think it actually comes up mechanically in a narrative fashion (such as "could you teleport over there and pull that lever?" or "does this look the same in all realities?").

I swear to god, if the resolution to this ends up revolving around the player telling her whether she should sever the connection or not, and that severing it is the selfish choice (because the others die or whatever), I'm going to end up killing a writer for being this obvious.

Fuck, that's weak.
 

Luckmann

Arcane
Zionist Agent
Joined
Jul 20, 2009
Messages
3,759
Location
Scandinavia
Hey, we can always hope that there's more to it than that. Being genuinely bamboozled by a NPC is something that hasn't occurred to me in a very, very, very long time. These days, when someone tells you that no, they're actually innocent, and you were sent to capture them on false pretenses, it's always true. The very idea that you could get genuinely tricked is apparently so upsetting to the modern player that it's just not done. Everyone is either obviously lying and can be called out on it (or you just have to go along with it as part of an on-rails narrative), or they're telling the honest truth and nothing but the truth.

But yeah, I honestly expect it to be pretty weak. Aligern is less snowflake-y, but still manages to be more interesting than that. At least his problem seems more genuine, although his whole character and the way he deals with it is painfully theatrical and melodramatic, as evidenced by his "paranoia" concerning the main character, which just comes off as off-key and unreasonable, rather than genuinely and believably unhinged.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,733
Location
California
Since the game's release is imminent, I figured I'd share some brief thoughts about my experience working on it. This doesn't include any interesting insider information, just fond musing, so be warned...

In April 2013, I sent Colin a rather ridiculous Codex PM that began: "I probably should've sent this while you were drunk with victory, rather than hungover, but I've never been good with timing..." Through many rambling and awkward paragraphs I proposed the possibility of my working on Torment. Because Colin is a mensch, he asked for my resume and we exchanged some pleasantries and things seemed more or less to stop there. (It turns out that Colin asked for my resume because Thomas Beekers had played and liked Primordia, and Thomas had learned about Primordia because of the generous coverage it had gotten here.)

Setting aside the fact that I would've had no means to contact Colin absent the Codex and he would never have heard of me but for the Codex's coverage of Primordia, it's unlikely I would've bothered to reach out had I not stumbled across this strange and fickle place some 12 years ago. Some odd sequence of events had made me interested in making a Wasteland-style RPG, and one search or another led me here, yielding many years of bickering and pondering RPG design. What had been a fairly superficial interest in a small number of computer RPGs (PS:T, Fallout, and Dark Sun, mostly) thus turned into a more serious interest not so much in the games themselves as in the ideas behind them.

Anyway, matters might not have gotten much farther than an awkward PM except that more than a year later, in August 2014, Infinitron and the gang gratuitously and unexpectedly offered me the Codex's invitation to the the WL2 launch party. This was itself a remarkable and wonderful experience, which I wrote about here. Apparently, it wound up being a kind of informal job interview, which, in the rather glacial way of things, turned into a real interview in February 2015, and ultimately a part-time job around the same time. From around March 2015 to August 2016, I worked on Torment in a piecemeal fashion, putting in around 500 hours overall.

I start with this background because -- despite my frequent dismay and occasional disgust at some aspects of the Codex -- I owe a real debt of gratitude to this place for the opportunity I had, which, as I explain below and as I've said before, was a wonderful one. It's unfortunate that the Codex's reaction to the game, or perhaps more to the game's marketing, has been negative. Ultimately, I have a very narrow window into Torment and even narrower window into its marketing. I never had time (or computing power) to play much of it, and I have had even less time to follow the publicity and various cycles of unhappiness about it. I really can't say whether the game will be good or not. Even if I had played it, I wouldn't trust my judgment, which is too close to be fair and too informed to experience it like a real player. (Though I haven't played it, I do know its plot, etc.) It's weird that the same site that, with boundless enthusiasm, made it possible for me to work on the game now awaits the game's coming by sharpening hatchets, but, as I wrote in my first post on this account, "The venerable tradition of the Codex is to love the past, hope for the future, and hate the present."

As I've said many times, the one thing I can say with certainty is that Torment is a product of love and hard work. Of course, people love stupid things and work hard on complete fiascoes. Love and labor aren't sufficient for success; they might not even be necessary. But it is hard to be mad at people who commit those things to their project. Literally everyone I worked with on Torment, from Brian down, seemed to deeply love classic RPGs, to deeply love PS:T, and to deeply love this project. That love doesn't mean blindness to economic considerations and deadlines, though to the extent people cared about those things I wasn't affected because (1) I worked for very little pay (making less per hour than I did at my college jobs 18 years ago) and (2) my work was sufficiently peripheral that no one much cared how quickly or slowly it came. But game development can't run on pure naivety, so I'm sure that managers were managing as well as simply expressing their passion.

But what I didn't see, ever, was a sense of glibness or corner-cutting. I didn't hear anyone ever withdraw from a challenge with "who cares." Codexers have repeatedly suggested that the game was dumbed down, but that kind of cynicism was completely absent from every conversation I heard and had and every email exchange I read. Of course I wasn't in every conversation or on every thread, and even Homer nods. But that kind of attitude -- which is at bottom contempt for your players -- isn't something that you can turn on and off. Either you love your game and your customers, or you don't, and however charming Brian is, even he wouldn't be able to fake that kind of affection. From everything I saw, the goal was to provide the richest, most engaging experience to the players, not to cut costs with simplifications or draw in crowds by eliminating depth.

This may sound defensive, and I am defensive because of the deep respect and admiration I feel for the people I worked with. I don't know if I can call them friends -- it's a status that always makes me uneasy to claim over someone else -- but I do know that they went out of their way to improve my writing, to enrich my experience on the project, and to help me in my other pursuits (like Primordia and Fallen Gods). They were kind and wise and generous with their time and experience. You're not necessarily a bad person if you say bad things about them, but I can't help but think you're wrong. Kevin, George, Colin, Adam, Chris, and Brian -- in fact, all the writers and artists I worked with -- never ceased to impress me with their curiosity and passion and commitment to the game. The sense of star-struck awe that permeates my report of the WL2 launch party never went away. These guys are who they seemed to be. Working with them was an opportunity of a lifetime; not the opportunity because, candidly, writing stories for computer games isn't the be-all and end-all of life, but it was still something very special.

None of this means that the game is good. None of it means that Codexers shouldn't criticize the game, or be pissed over a cancelled interview or the lack of features discussed in Kickstarter updates. None of it even means that people shouldn't engage in the Codexian game of semi-ironically saying mean things about developers, though I think that's a pretty crappy practice and one that drives away and hurts a lot of good people. At the end of the day, complaining about things is one of the pleasures of life, and complaining hyperbolically is part of being on the Internet. And, contrary to Gandalf, I don't believe that "he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom." Sometimes tearing things apart and pawing through their guts actually advances us down the path of wisdom quite a bit, and the Codex does that very well.

In a few days, I guess I'll be able to find out second-hand whether the game is good or not, whether any of what I worked on stayed close enough to the critical path to even be noticed, and whether the Codex's past exuberance or present gloom is more apropos. But before that happens and my view of my months working on Torment is unavoidably altered by the reception of what came out of it, I just wanted to note what a great experience it was, and to say thanks to everyone here who made it possible. I'm grateful for the dumb luck that got me here and from here to there.
 
Last edited:

J_C

One Bit Studio
Patron
Developer
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
16,947
Location
Pannonia
Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Since the game's release is imminent, I figured I'd share some brief thoughts about my experience working on it. This doesn't include any interesting insider information, just fond musing, so be warned...

In April 2013, I sent Colin a rather ridiculous Codex PM that began: "I probably should've sent this while you were drunk with victory, rather than hungover, but I've never been good with timing..." Through many rambling and awkward paragraphs I proposed the possibility of my working on Torment. Because Colin is a mensch, he asked for my resume and we exchanged some pleasantries and things seemed more or less to stop there. (It turns out that Colin asked for my resume by Thomas Beekers had played and liked Primordia, and he'd learned about Primordia because of the generous coverage it had gotten here.)

Setting aside the fact that I would've had no means to contact Colin absent the Codex and he would never have heard of me but for the Codex's coverage of Primordia, it's unlikely I would've bothered to had I not stumbled across this strange and fickle place some 12 years ago. Some odd sequence of events had made me interested in making a Wasteland-style RPG, and one search or another led me here, yielding many years of bickering and pondering RPG design. What had been a fairly superficial interest in a small number of computer RPGs (PS:T, Fallout, and Dark Sun, mostly) thus turned into a more serious interest not so much in the games themselves as in the ideas behind them.

Anyway, matters might not have gotten much farther than an awkward PM except that more than a year later, in August 2014, Infinitron and the gang gratuitously and unexpectedly offered me the Codex's invitation to the the WL2 launch party. This was itself a remarkable and wonderful experience, which I wrote about here. Apparently, it wound up being a kind of informal job interview, which, in the rather glacial way of things, turned into a real interview in February 2015, and ultimately a part-time job around the same time. From around March 2015 to August 2016, I worked on Torment in a piecemeal fashion, putting in around 500 hours overall.

I start with this background because -- despite my frequent dismay and occasional disgust at some aspects of the Codex -- I owe a real debt of gratitude to this place for the opportunity I had, which, as I explain below and as I've said before, was a wonderful one. It's unfortunate that the Codex's reaction to the game, or perhaps more to the game's marketing, has been negative. Ultimately, I have a very narrow window into Torment and even narrower window into its marketing. I never had time (or computing power) to play much of it, and I have had even less time to follow the publicity and various cycles of unhappiness about it. I really can't say whether the game will be good or not. Even if I had played it, I wouldn't trust my judgment, which is too close to be fair and too informed to experience it like a real player. (Though I haven't played it, I do know its plot, etc.) It's weird that the same site that, with boundless enthusiasm, made it possible for me to work on the game now awaits the game's coming by sharpening hatchets, but, as I wrote in my first post on this account, "The venerable tradition of the Codex is to love the past, hope for the future, and hate the present."

As I've said many times, the one thing I can say with certainty is that Torment is a product of love and hard work. Of course, people love stupid things and work hard on complete fiascoes. Love and labor aren't sufficient for success; they might not even be necessary. But it is hard to be mad at people who commit those things to their project. Literally everyone I worked with on Torment, from Brian down, seemed to deeply love classic RPGs, to deeply love PS:T, and to deeply love this project. That love doesn't mean blindness to economic considerations and deadlines, though to the extent people cared about those things I wasn't affected because (1) I worked for very little pay (making less per hour than I did at my college jobs 18 years ago) and (2) my work was sufficiently peripheral that no one much cared how quickly or slowly it came. But game development can't run on pure naivety, so I'm sure that managers were managing as well as simply expressing their passion.

But what I didn't see, ever, was a sense of glibness or corner-cutting. I didn't hear anyone ever withdraw from a challenge with "who cares." Codexers have repeatedly suggested that the game was dumbed down, but that kind of cynicism was completely absent from every conversation I heard and had and every email exchange I read. Of course I wasn't in every conversation or on every thread, and even Homer nods. But that kind of attitude -- which is at bottom contempt for your players -- isn't something that you can turn on and off. Either you love your game and your customers, or you don't, and however charming Brian is, even he wouldn't be able to fake that kind of affection. From everything I saw, the goal was to provide the richest, most engaging experience to the players, not to cut costs with simplifications or draw in crowds by eliminating depth.

This may sound defensive, and I am defensive because of the deep respect and admiration I feel for the people I worked with. I don't know if I can call them friends -- it's a status that always makes me uneasy to claim over someone else -- but I do know that they went out of their way to improve my writing, to enrich my enrich my experience on the project, and to help me in my other pursuits (like Primordia and Fallen Gods). They were kind and wise and generous with their time and experience. You're not necessarily a bad person if you say bad things about them, but I can't help but think you're wrong. Kevin, George, Colin, Adam, Chris, and Brian -- in fact, all the writers and artists I worked with -- never ceased to impress me with their curiosity and passion and commitment to the game. The sense of star-struck awe that permeates my report of the WL2 launch party never went away. These guys are who they seemed to be. Working with them was an opportunity of a lifetime; not the opportunity because, candidly, writing stories for computer games isn't the be-all and end-all of life, but it was still something very special.

None of this means that the game is good. None of it means that Codexers shouldn't criticize the game, or be pissed over a cancelled interview or the lack of features discussed in Kickstarter updates. None of it even means that people shouldn't engage in the Codexian game of semi-ironically saying mean things about developers, though I think that's a pretty crappy practice and one that drives away and hurts a lot of good people. At the end of the day, complaining about things is one of the pleasures of life, and complaining hyperbolically is part of being on the Internet. And, contrary to Gandalf, I don't believe that "he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom." Sometimes tearing things apart and pawing through their guts actually advances us down the path of wisdom quite a bit, and the Codex does that very well.

In a few days, I guess I'll be able to find out second-hand whether the game is good or not, whether any of what I worked on stayed close enough to the critical path to even be noticed, and whether the Codex's past exuberance or present gloom is more apropos. But before that happens and my view of my months working on Torment is unavoidably altered by the reception of what came out of it, I just wanted to note what a great experience it was, and to say thanks to everyone here who made it possible. I'm grateful for the dumb luck that got me here and from here to there.
Thank you for sharing this. Feels good to have people like you on the Codex. :love:
 

Prime Junta

Guest
I worked for very little pay (making less per hour than I did at my college jobs 18 years ago)
Fargo confirmed as capitalist bloodsucker. Again.

Edit: It would be interesting to hear what went wrong during production, because something clearly did. You don't just accidentally forget to do stuff, or magically poop out a console version. If it isn't malice, it must be incompetence -- and that's pretty puzzling too, given the CVs of the people involved.
 

J_C

One Bit Studio
Patron
Developer
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
16,947
Location
Pannonia
Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
I worked for very little pay (making less per hour than I did at my college jobs 18 years ago)
Fargo confirmed as capitalist bloodsucker. Again.

Edit: It would be interesting to hear what went wrong during production, because something clearly did. You don't just accidentally forget to do stuff, or magically poop out a console version. If it isn't malice, it must be incompetence -- and that's pretty puzzling too, given the CVs of the people involved.
What went wrong with Torment? Seriously, what are the things that went wrong? That some of the features which were promised in the Kickstarter were cut? This is the curse of the kickstarter you see. Everybody is so hung up on the promises, but do you really think that you can plan every little detail 3 years ahead? They are developers, not fortune tellers. They made an estimate about how much features they can do in a given time and given money, but a lot of things can change in three years. And they decided to cut some. Like when Larian cut the NPC schedules and the Phantom forrest area.

It is simply unbelievable that people can't understand that things change in a 3 years long development cycle, and you either adapt or risk crashing the project because you ran out of time and money?

As for the console version, Fargo have seen a good business opportunity which he thinked is profitable to the company, without risking the base game. And am I remembering right that the console version was not even their work, but their business partner Techland?
 

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