Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Pre-Release Thread [ALPHA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Roguey]

Smudboys entire argument against the implementation of turn based combat (when he can keep his own story straight), as taken from his Youtube comments, can be boiled essentially down to down to this. He has no problem with turn based combat so long as its sufficiently explained in the narrative. So all Inxile really has to do is issue some fluff and that will save old Smud 18 minutes of bellyaching and butthurt and also let him save his stock of the word "metaphysics" for another time.

"It's an abstraction, fucking deal with it."

 

[Athelas]

That reminds me: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/...r_Matt_Findley_On_Hunted_The_Demons_Forge.php

Approaching this genre what was your go-to in terms of the way you wanted to present the action or player interaction? Because it's sort of a new spot for you guys as a developer.

Well, you know, we analyzed the long history of video games. I think these games always wanted to be action games at their heart. I think all those old turn-based games, it's just that's all the technology would allow.

 

[Sensuki]

LOL

 

[Sordid MCA/Prosper Hybryd]

 

[Nikolaj]

Only 18 minutes? Smuddy's losing his touch.

Sure, it's not the longest, but in my opinion it's the best episode so far. It has a plot twist where he reveals he's been comparing apples and oranges all along.

His small series of videos remind me a little bit of Lost, in that it's hard to understand what's going on and weird plot twists are abundant. I'd like him to make more videos, but on the other hand, it might be better to stop now, keeping in mind how Lost turned out.

 

[DraQ]

Somebody please ask him why stopping the time to give orders doesn't break his precious immersion the way TB does - them googles bork the comments for me with some update and I don't care enough about responding to random morons on YT to waste time fixing that.
And how clicking pause all the time isn't tedious.
Also why being able to order unquestioning party NPCs around or strip them of valuables and kick them out seconds after seeing them for the first time and recruiting them doesn't make them feel like mindless dolls, if ordering them around in TB does.

If anything the most lively party members I had were in Wizardry 8 - a TB game.

 

[Echo Mirage]

One thing I don't quite get about Smudboy is how he is willing to turn is back on Torment over one barely realized feature that no one really knows at this point how it will work let alone how it will be implemented. And very may end up being so minor as to be potentially avoided or skipped entirely. Yet he is willing dedicate over 60 plus videos about how the Mass Effect series fails at almost every feature, literary and otherwise. Yet he can't turn his back on it.

 

[undecaf]

One thing I don't quite get about Smudboy is how he is willing to turn is back on Torment over one barely realized feature that no one really knows at this point how it will work let alone how it will be implemented. And very may end up being so minor as to be potentially avoided or skipped entirely. Yet he is willing dedicate over 60 plus videos about how the Mass Effect series fails at almost every feature, literary and otherwise. Yet he can't turn his back on it.

It's not just Smuddy the Smudskipper. It's an epidemic. These people apparently pledged so they could start killing Hive thugs, fiends and cranium rats in rapid succession, and are now pissed because killing those hordes in TB apparently increases the games length for about 30 hours and makes it a drag. No matter that they've been told time and again that that will not be the case here; it will be for them and now the combat game they pledged for is ruined.

I'd like to believe that's not the case (and it probably isn't for the majority), but it certainly seems so from reading the comments.

 

[Ninjerk]

One thing I don't quite get about Smudboy is how he is willing to turn is back on Torment over one barely realized feature that no one really knows at this point how it will work let alone how it will be implemented. And very may end up being so minor as to be potentially avoided or skipped entirely. Yet he is willing dedicate over 60 plus videos about how the Mass Effect series fails at almost every feature, literary and otherwise. Yet he can't turn his back on it.

Because he is emotionally unstable, and probably terribly unsatisfied with his life so he backs a project and loads it with tons of unrealistic and misguided expectations, and at the first hint that it's any different he has given himself an excuse to cry for attention (even if it is an unintelligible cry).

 

[gromit]

Damn.

 

[Sensuki]

Yet he can't turn his back on it.

Mass Effect 3 critiques were made post-release, so it's like "This is shit, but I'll have some more please". Torment is two years away so he can't effectively do the same.

Perhaps it was as simple as the E cup breasted female models kept him coming back who knows.

 

[Nikolaj]

One thing I don't quite get about Smudboy is how he is willing to turn is back on Torment over one barely realized feature that no one really knows at this point how it will work let alone how it will be implemented. And very may end up being so minor as to be potentially avoided or skipped entirely. Yet he is willing dedicate over 60 plus videos about how the Mass Effect series fails at almost every feature, literary and otherwise. Yet he can't turn his back on it.

It's not just Smuddy the Smudskipper. It's an epidemic. These people apparently pledged so they could start killing Hive thugs, fiends and cranium rats in rapid succession, and are now pissed because killing those hordes in TB apparently increases the games length for about 30 hours and makes it a drag. No matter that they've been told time and again that that will not be the case here; it will be for them and now the combat game they pledged for is ruined.

I'd like to believe that's not the case (and it probably isn't for the majority), but it certainly seems so from reading the comments.

I think it's worth remembering that only about 20% of the backers (probably less if you include paypal pledges) even bothered to vote, and only about 10% voted for RTwP. Of those only a minority bothered to post on the forums or in the update comments, and not all of those who did were particularly upset about the decision. I haven't read through all the angry threads on the forums, or all of the update comments, but it seems to me that a lot of the tantrum posts seem to be written by the same handful of people. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

 

[Blaine]

Holy fuck, turn-based wins the vote, and we get Biodrone tears in the bargain... Christmas came early this year.

What's really amusing is that although TB zealots feel very strongly that TB is preferable to RTwP, I seriously doubt we'd have thrown tantrums anywhere near this entertaining, nor cried about how we're now boycotting the game (although I agree with Nikolaj; it's a vocal minority). Typical Westerners—democracy is great, unless we don't get what we voted for.

And in fairness, I think TB won largely because TB advocates turned out in comparatively high numbers (knowing that TB would need every vote it could get), while the majority of backers would indeed prefer RTwP, but aren't as active as a whole, nor are they as aware of what's going on day to day. But low voter turnout has never been a reason to overturn a vote.

 

[undecaf]

I think it's worth remembering that only about 20% of the backers (probably less if you include paypal pledges) even bothered to vote, and only about 10% voted for RTwP. Of those only a minority bothered to post on the forums or in the update comments, and not all of those who did were particularly upset about the decision. I haven't read through all the angry threads on the forums, or all of the update comments, but it seems to me that a lot of the tantrum posts seem to be written by the same handful of people. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Oh, I'm not really "worrying" and you are right about that. Some of that shit just pokes a stick through my eye to my brain and, this being the internet, something must be said to vent off the unhealthy leaks of pressure and puss the poke produces.

 

[Cynic]

You know who's to blame for all this shit?

Bioware.

And story fags.

And cosplayers.

Fuck all of them.

 

[VioletShadow]

You know who's to blame for all this shit?

Bioware.

And story fags.

And cosplayers.

Fuck all of them.

Wha..what did we do?

 

[Athelas]

Torment's unorthodox design makes it probably the only oldschool RPG that appeals to the unwashed masses. I wonder what that says about us?

 

[Cynic]

Like it or not, combat is an intrinsic part of any classic role playing experience. All of these games' systems have been born out of turn based combat. It's the fucking story fags who find combat gets in the way of them playing the game like reading their fucking fanfics.

TB combat takes time because THATS THE FUCKING GAME! Take time, plan your moves, execute them. Do these people understand the concept of a "game"?

RTwP can be not shit, but honestly? After playing ToEE I wished that all the IE games could have been converted into that rule set with those mechanics (minus bugs of course).

Seriously, speaking of the mainstream, isn't FFT one of the most beloved final fantasy games? It's as turn based as it gets. I can't understand that so many of these people exist. My brain can't comprehend how someone can think that TB is worse. The only conclusion I can draw is that they want to read some kind of interactive book, and TB combat slows that down slightly more than RTwP because they have to think.

 

[Zombra]

After playing ToEE I wished that all the IE games could have been converted into that rule set with those mechanics.

That thought never occurred to me. Oh man. That would be amazing.

 

[Ogg]

Somebody please ask him why stopping the time to give orders doesn't break his precious immersion the way TB does - them googles bork the comments for me with some update and I don't care enough about responding to random morons on YT to waste time fixing that.
And how clicking pause all the time isn't tedious.
Also why being able to order unquestioning party NPCs around or strip them of valuables and kick them out seconds after seeing them for the first time and recruiting them doesn't make them feel like mindless dolls, if ordering them around in TB does.

You can't understand: it's all about metaphysics.

 

[Infinitron]

Like it or not, combat is an intrinsic part of any classic role playing experience. All of these games' systems have been born out of turn based combat. It's the fucking story fags who find combat gets in the way of them playing the game like reading their fucking fanfics.

TB combat takes time because THATS THE FUCKING GAME! Take time, plan your moves, execute them. Do these people understand the concept of a "game"?

RTwP can be not shit, but honestly? After playing ToEE I wished that all the IE games could have been converted into that rule set with those mechanics (minus bugs of course).

Seriously, speaking of the mainstream, isn't FFT one of the most beloved final fantasy games? It's as turn based as it gets. I can't understand that so many of these people exist. My brain can't comprehend how someone can think that TB is worse. The only conclusion I can draw is that they want to read some kind of interactive book, and TB combat slows that down slightly more than RTwP because they have to think.

Your enthusiasm is commendable, but it's probably not a good idea to rage about "storyfags" in a thread about a Torment game.

 

[Cynic]

Your enthusiasm is commendable, but it's probably not a good idea to rage about "storyfags" in a thread about a Torment game.

Why not? I love a great story in a game. I loved Torment. But I want great combat too. I want everything to be great.

Having TB combat doesn't make the story any less impactful or immersive, anyone who thinks this way should be purged.

 

[VioletShadow]

Like it or not, combat is an intrinsic part of any classic role playing experience. All of these games' systems have been born out of turn based combat. It's the fucking story fags who find combat gets in the way of them playing the game like reading their fucking fanfics.

TB combat takes time because THATS THE FUCKING GAME! Take time, plan your moves, execute them. Do these people understand the concept of a "game"?

RTwP can be not shit, but honestly? After playing ToEE I wished that all the IE games could have been converted into that rule set with those mechanics (minus bugs of course).

Seriously, speaking of the mainstream, isn't FFT one of the most beloved final fantasy games? It's as turn based as it gets. I can't understand that so many of these people exist. My brain can't comprehend how someone can think that TB is worse. The only conclusion I can draw is that they want to read some kind of interactive book, and TB combat slows that down slightly more than RTwP because they have to think.

Combat is not an intrinsic part of Monte Cook's Numenera and I'm pretty sure won't be in TToN.

TToN Vision Document

 

[kenup]

Check it out:

You can pause the game in TB combat, too. The difference is it's non interactive.

In TB, there's a different metaphysic. The narrative doesn't explain that. Inconsistency. Hence, problem.

Pausing, going to your Settings menu (which also pauses the game), selecting something in your inventory (also pauses), a dialogue system (pauses) -- these are all normal gaming interfaces for the player to control things. Aside from dialogue, they are not part of the narrative.

Showing a character in a level in real time exploration, and then showing that same character in the same level in turn based combat, is the problem. Both Exploration and Combat are part of the narrative.

Learning how to exploit a game system is learning how to beat a game. We could say the same of min/maxing in any RPG rule set.

A spiritual sequel should improve it: but that doesn't mean replacing anything. Plenty of people were expecting the same type of game play from P:T. If it's not broken, don't fix it.

Combat is avoidable in P:T...so? I've never avoided combat. I wanted TNO to be in combat, to see what he and his party could do. He was one of the most powerful humans in existence, and his incarnations spanned the ages. Near the end of the game his END healing was akin to Wolverine. He was more of a force than a person at that point. What would be the point of having an inventory screen, and stats, and spells, if you're not going to see them in action? And why would a player run away from 10 bats or so? Is TNO scared of bats? Or gods, or his mortality for that matter?

Combat was part of the game, even if a minor point. And it had problems. But it didn't need to be replaced just because Mr. Cook had a new setting and rule set

 

[Delterius]

How interesting. Somehow, a combat's superficial form -- wether it is TB or RTwP -- isn't a staple of gaming. Players totally haven't yet internalized that a turn based game is structured in turns and that a RTwP have a unnatural and unrealistic pause button. Strangely enough, this seems to be an issue only for the form of combat that he doesn't like. TB is unnatural and monotonous, RTwP is gripping and awesome.