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Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Pre-Release Thread [ALPHA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Kirtai

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I feel that the second one was always going to be the most awkward. The neither have the first project to show nor the enthusiasm of the initial go. Assuming that they succeed I expect that future games will go easier since they can point to the successful releases (unless they colossally screw up of course)

I think they're going to need to have some really nice stuff to show from both Torment and W2 to make it work. Hopefully they'll have it.
 

Gondolin

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Umm, no. Bethesda's take is "We need to make Fallout popamole because that's what sells". inXile's take is "We need money to survive in this niche". If you're interested in their niche donate. If not, don't, I guess.

I'm interested in their niche, but less so in their business problems. I would've preferred to play Wasteland 2 before being asked to back another project.
 

Kz3r0

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I

Yeah, I know. But I don't think we can't afford to be their publisher. Nor Obsidian's for that matter.
And we aren't, or Kickstarter becomes a viable way for a studio to finance their projects, AKA a full fledged market, or is eternal popamole.
 

Kirtai

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I'm interested in their niche, but less so in their business problems. I would've preferred to play Wasteland 2 before being asked to back another project.
It's not an actual problem here, it's just one of the most effective ways to run this kind of business. Unfortunately it lends itself to teething problems when trying new funding methods like this.
 

Brother None

inXile Entertainment
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So I take it the campaign is starting soon? I understand InXile's reasons for that, but from what I've read on other forums (like SomethingAwful) most people expect them to only launch the Torment campaign when Wasteland 2 is released or at least close to release. I'm afraid starting it early will turn A LOT of potential backers off pledging. I hope Brian knows what he's doing.

Also, despite MCA "endorsing" the new Torment, I've seen a lot of people say "no MCA, no pledge". Truth be told I fear a bit for this campaign.


Oh believe me when I say we're very aware of all of this. From the very first time I had Brian on the phone about Torment - several months ago - to now we've been constantly considering this Kickstarter drive's rather steep challenges; no Planescape, no MCA, no Wasteland 2 being released yet. It's not an easy pitch for those reasons, but they're all reasons beyond our control. Brian can't wave a magic wand and make Planescape or Chris available (though we've kind of moved on from Planescape already), and the truth is we need the money for preproduction because inXile doesn't have the means to keep footing the bill, including my wages, haha.

Part of my job is to keep a close eye on different communities, looking shallow and deep to get an impression how people are taking things, and I am very well aware (and thus, transitively, Kevin and Brian are very well aware) of the criticisms leveled at this idea in many communities. All we can do is explain, though, list our reasonings, what we need and what we offer, and hope it works for the best. You can see me pop up all over the place, from NeoGAF to RPS to the GOG forums.

The thing is, once it's explained a lot of people seem to get it, all of it. Why Numenera makes more sense here than Planescape. How this team can be good enough to be worthy of the name without Chris. And - perhaps most important - why we're looking to establish a cycle of development time where pre-production of the next project starts now, because writers and concept artists have no significant work left to do on Wasteland 2, but how we're not going to fund that pre-production from Wasteland 2's money (that would be wrong) and do not have the means ourselves to fully fund it. You don't have to like it. Hell, you think we like it? You think we wouldn't rather have Wasteland 2 out there before going back for more funding? Heck yeah we would. But it's not just feasible from a production cycle perspective, and while inXile will certainly survive having to fire Kevin, Colin, Adam, cutting contracts with a bunch of concept artists and letting me go, it would create a negative workflow environment that would needlessly delay Torment *and* probably present a lesser team for it since a lot of us will have moved on before they get their funding together.

Now, we're full bore on this, working hard on documentation, art, presentations, doing everything to show what we want to do and why it's worth backing (and - I know this doesn't necessarily mean all that much since I work for them - but I am personally VERY impressed by some of the design and narrative ideas I'm reading in the internal documentation). But for communities...I'm going to be lame and say "we can always use your help". coz we could! Explain our concepts and why this needs to be done like this to people as you see misunderstandings crop up. I've been explaining it time and again here and there, but the more people get it, the better. Not that there's any obligation to get it. I mean, you can understand why it's being done but still feel uncomfortable with it and not look at Torment at all until you've played Wasteland 2. That's fine, but I would like people to understand our reasoning and make an informed decision on these questions.



Can't read that thread, I'm not registered on SA (never have been). I know I probably should now, but I'll freely admit to being a bit less than kindly inclined towards Something Awful, since they once tries to DDoS and hack NMA and my own personal computer, and banned everyone associated with NMA. Would they still ban me from being from NMA, I wonder?

Not sure how I feel about that. It's like if Obsidian Kickstarted Baldur's Gate 3, and "Set in the Faerun D&D setting" was a stretch goal instead of a core feature. For me 2D is as integral to Torment as the writing, but I realize I may be in the minority here.
Well, Real Talk® time, 2D is expensive. It takes up a large part of your budget and time compared to Wasteland 2's graphic style. Now even if we can't do hand-painted 2D, we'll look at ways to emulate the painterly feel, it's never an either-or question, but doing hand-painted 2D is expensive. Eternity was a huge success so they can pull it off, but honestly, if you work on a one million budget and are going to do 2D backgrounds, you're going to end up allocating too much of your budget to graphics which will end up severely limiting the amount you have to spend on, y'know, writing, level design, C&C. We're not comfortable starting with 2D promised because for this particular project that balance does not make sense. We'd love to do it tho, but it depends on the funding.
 

Infinitron

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Can't read that thread, I'm not registered on SA (never have been). I know I probably should now, but I'll freely admit to being a bit less than kindly inclined towards Something Awful, since they once tries to DDoS and hack NMA and my own personal computer, and banned everyone associated with NMA. Would they still ban me from being from NMA, I wonder?

I hate to say this, but they're an important community and I think it's important that you join. I don't think they'll ban you.
 

Zeriel

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Well, Real Talk® time, 2D is expensive.

I'm sorry, but I still don't believe this saw when you're talking about just average 2D, especially in a party-based top-down RPG. Let's look at Temple of Elemental Evil. Simple (almost painfully so) 3D models for the characters, and 2D backgrounds that are basically no more than .BMPs. Are you trying to tell me that that costs more than developing truly 3D environments for every area? I have a hard time believing 2D is significantly more expensive for something like ToEE, but I'd love to hear otherwise from the source (i.e people like Tim Cain who have actually developed said assets or been around people doing them), not industry commenters. I tried to Google the development costs for ToEE since it seems like such a ready-made example, but finding budgets for video games is virtually impossible it seems.
 

Infinitron

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Well, Real Talk® time, 2D is expensive.

I'm sorry, but I still don't believe this saw when you're talking about just average 2D, especially in a party-based top-down RPG. Let's look at Temple of Elemental Evil. Simple (almost painfully so) 3D models for the characters, and 2D backgrounds that are basically no more than .BMPs. Are you trying to tell me that that costs more than developing truly 3D environments for every area? I have a hard time believing 2D is significantly more expensive for something like ToEE, but I'd love to hear otherwise from the source (i.e people like Tim Cain who have actually developed said assets or been around people doing them), not industry commenters. I tried to Google the development costs for ToEE since it seems like such a ready-made example, but finding budgets for video games is virtually impossible it seems.

The 2D backgrounds in Infinity Engine-style games were originally high quality 3D models. They were pre-rendered and touched up manually by artists. That's a more expensive design process than just rendering a simple 3D environment in real time.

.BMP is just a file format, man.
 

Zeriel

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Well, Real Talk® time, 2D is expensive.

I'm sorry, but I still don't believe this saw when you're talking about just average 2D, especially in a party-based top-down RPG. Let's look at Temple of Elemental Evil. Simple (almost painfully so) 3D models for the characters, and 2D backgrounds that are basically no more than .BMPs. Are you trying to tell me that that costs more than developing truly 3D environments for every area? I have a hard time believing 2D is significantly more expensive for something like ToEE, but I'd love to hear otherwise from the source (i.e people like Tim Cain who have actually developed said assets or been around people doing them), not industry commenters. I tried to Google the development costs for ToEE since it seems like such a ready-made example, but finding budgets for video games is virtually impossible it seems.

The 2D backgrounds in Infinity Engine-style games were originally high quality 3D models. They're pre-rendered and touched up. They are higher quality than regular real-time 3D rendered environments and therefore more expensive.

".BMP" is just a file format, man.

There's a massive difference between developing a 3D environment in a modeling program, and having a 3D environment in a game engine (especially since that often entails a camera that rotates in various degrees of freedom). Look at Dragon Age 1, then look at Baldur's Gate 2. Look at the number of people who worked on the former as compared to the latter. Look at the respective scale (i.e, size) of each's gameworld.
 

Zeriel

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Now if you're talking about using the same set of generic 3D assets to build dozens of levels, I'd agree. Obviously if you don't mind samey looking levels, you can do a lot with an engine like NWN2. But when it comes to creating levels that all use unique assets? I have a hard time believing 3D is significantly cheaper than 2D.
 

Infinitron

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
There's a massive difference between developing a 3D environment in a modeling program, and having a 3D environment in a game engine (especially since that often entails a camera that rotates in various degrees of freedom). Look at Dragon Age 1, then look at Baldur's Gate 2. Look at the number of people who worked on the former as compared to the latter. Look at the respective scale (i.e, size) of each's gameworld.

Dragon Age's environment needs to support a third person perspective, which is more expensive to design since it needs to look good from many angles. You're also talking about very different production values compared to a low budget 3D game like Wasteland 2.

What I'm saying is, Wasteland 2's environments will be cheaper compared to Project Eternity's. Unless you think Kevin Saunders is bullshitting us.
 

Crooked Bee

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Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire MCA Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
BN, sure, I see all the reasons you've listed - and you surely understand the reasons the other side of this debate has, because they're perfectly logical, too. Now it's just the empirical matter of seeing how convincing Brian and co. are going to be, I guess, and the quality of the material they present for their campaign.

Actually, I know that any man of business would do the same thing that Brian is doing, i.e. press for an earlier campaign for Torment 2. Not just from the standpoint of keeping the team intact (which is of course highly important), but also because, in the worst case scenario that Brian can't exclude no matter how excited he is for how W2 is shaping up, Wasteland 2 might just fall short of being great and get a not-so-warm reception from the fans and the press alike - which would completely doom any future Torment (or other) kickstarter. So in a way, from a business standpoint, it is actually less risky to start the Torment campaign before Wasteland 2 is released than after the fact.

Can't read that thread, I'm not registered on SA (never have been). I know I probably should now, but I'll freely admit to being a bit less than kindly inclined towards Something Awful, since they once tries to DDoS and hack NMA and my own personal computer, and banned everyone associated with NMA. Would they still ban me from being from NMA, I wonder?

Well, they haven't banned me even though I openly associate myself with with Codex and post links to Codex content - and the Codex is usually seen as being worse than NMA, so I don't think they're going to ban you. They might see you as a "shill" though if you press the role of InXile's advocate too far - they have a thing for jumping on the hate bandwagon, just like the Codex - but as long as you just pop up from time to time to explain things and clear up some misconceptions you should be fine. I think it's actually a pretty good and, ahem, "diverse" community, all things considered.
 

J_C

One Bit Studio
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Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Accurate parts:
"the style of play is stagnant, repetitive, tedious, shallow, irritating, and to put it simply, just mechanically stupid." (mostly accurate when it comes to describing Ultima, Fallout, AD&D, M&M, and Wizardry)
:rage::xWhat the fuck are you talking about?
 

Brother None

inXile Entertainment
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I'm sorry, but I still don't believe this saw when you're talking about just average 2D, especially in a party-based top-down RPG. Let's look at Temple of Elemental Evil. Simple (almost painfully so) 3D models for the characters, and 2D backgrounds that are basically no more than .BMPs. Are you trying to tell me that that costs more than developing truly 3D environments for every area? I have a hard time believing 2D is significantly more expensive for something like ToEE, but I'd love to hear otherwise from the source (i.e people like Tim Cain who have actually developed said assets or been around people doing them), not industry commenters

You misunderstand the process. For both Infinity as for Eternity levels have to be built complete in 3D and rendered, saved and then "hand-painted" over. And after that you have to use some clever tricky to integrate 3D with 2D and have the exceedingly difficult task of getting lighting and shadows working properly in this hybrid style. *Could* you do cheaper 2D? Sure, but that's not the process that leads to a game looking "2D painterly" a la Planescape: Torment or Eternity. You're basically adding a layer of work, because everything that is present in the levels has to be built as a 3D object first.

Am I saying 2D is significantly more expensive than 3D period? No. Am I saying this particular approach to 2D will generally end up bottom line costing more than it does if you do the game in 3D? Yip.

BN, sure, I see all the reasons you've listed - and you surely understand the reasons the other side of this debate has, because they're perfectly logical, too.

They are, yes, and it is our job to alleviate their concerns and get them interested. But I would really like any rejection of our ideas to be on the basis of a fair understanding of our reasoning, not knee-jerk "greed!" reactions or lack of information. That's why I like to drone and repeat these explanations over and over and over

Wasteland 2 might just fall short of being great and get a not-so-warm reception from the fans and the press alike - which would completely doom any future Torment (or other) kickstarter. So in a way, from a business standpoint, it is actually less risky to start the Torment campaign before Wasteland 2 is released than after the fact.

That's always a risk but I can't say that's a major factor. Brian is really bullish about Wasteland 2's quality and future.
 

Zeriel

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There's a massive difference between developing a 3D environment in a modeling program, and having a 3D environment in a game engine (especially since that often entails a camera that rotates in various degrees of freedom). Look at Dragon Age 1, then look at Baldur's Gate 2. Look at the number of people who worked on the former as compared to the latter. Look at the respective scale (i.e, size) of each's gameworld.

Dragon Age's environment needs to support a third person perspective, which is more expensive to design since it needs to look good from many angles. You're also talking about very different production values compared to a low budget 3D game like Wasteland 2.

What I'm saying is, Wasteland 2's environments will be cheaper compared to Project Eternity's. Unless you think Kevin Saunders is bullshitting you?

I've been taught to be cynical by my experience with certain developers whose public statements are just a smokescreen for what they've already decided they want to do (i.e justification as opposed to honest explanation). It's entirely possible I'm horribly wrong, but I get the feeling it's more a case of "we're used to developing things this way now" rather than it truly being cheaper on a basic level.

I'm sorry, but I still don't believe this saw when you're talking about just average 2D, especially in a party-based top-down RPG. Let's look at Temple of Elemental Evil. Simple (almost painfully so) 3D models for the characters, and 2D backgrounds that are basically no more than .BMPs. Are you trying to tell me that that costs more than developing truly 3D environments for every area? I have a hard time believing 2D is significantly more expensive for something like ToEE, but I'd love to hear otherwise from the source (i.e people like Tim Cain who have actually developed said assets or been around people doing them), not industry commenters


You misunderstand the process. For both Infinity as for Eternity levels have to be built complete in 3D and rendered, saved and then "hand-painted" over. And after that you have to use some clever tricky to integrate 3D with 2D and have the exceedingly difficult task of getting lighting and shadows working properly in this hybrid style. *Could* you do cheaper 2D? Sure, but that's not the process that leads to a game looking "2D painterly" a la Planescape: Torment or Eternity. You're basically adding a layer of work, because everything that is present in the levels has to be built as a 3D object first.

Am I saying 2D is significantly more expensive than 3D period? No. Am I saying this particular approach to 2D will generally end up bottom line costing more than it does if you do the game in 3D? Yip.

Actually, I completely understand the process. I just am not entirely convinced the budget cost is as high as people are making it out to be. Ultimately this is the sort of thing that no one here can really settle--you just need first-hand experience with doing it, and if the people at Obsidian or inXile say it is measurably more expensive to do 2D, then I guess I just have to take them at their word. I do find it a little strange that it was apparently a fairly affordable process ten years ago, but hugely expensive now.

Torment was profitable (though not massively so) at 80,000 copies sold. And that's considering the total budget, including marketing and quite a few CG movies that were fairly advanced for their time. I'm really wondering how much money making that game all over again would cost now, minus the speech (very well done) and CGI movies.
 

Infinitron

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Am I saying 2D is significantly more expensive than 3D period? No. Am I saying this particular approach to 2D will generally end up bottom line costing more than it does if you do the game in 3D? Yip.

They could make Fallout-style 2D tile-based graphics. But I think that would disappoint the fans almost as much as 3D graphics.
 

Zeriel

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Am I saying 2D is significantly more expensive than 3D period? No. Am I saying this particular approach to 2D will generally end up bottom line costing more than it does if you do the game in 3D? Yip.

They could make Fallout-style 2D tile-based graphics. But I think that would disappoint the fans almost as much as 3D graphics.

Yeah, this is where I disagree with most fans, then, I suppose. I find Fallout 1's graphics (ESPECIALLY the kill animations) vastly superior to most modern games, and astronomically superior to Wasteland 2's aesthetic. I don't mind it so much with W2 because it looks like it's shaping up to be almost as much a tactical wargame like XCOM or JA2 as an RPG, but Torment is very different in its cachet.
 

Infinitron

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Yeah, this is where I disagree with most fans, then, I suppose. I find Fallout 1's graphics (ESPECIALLY the kill animations) vastly superior to most modern games, and astronomically superior to Wasteland 2's aesthetic.

Well, the kill animations are characters, not background - that's a different story altogether.
 

Zeriel

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Yeah, this is where I disagree with most fans, then, I suppose. I find Fallout 1's graphics (ESPECIALLY the kill animations) vastly superior to most modern games, and astronomically superior to Wasteland 2's aesthetic.

Well, the kill animations are characters, not background - that's a different story altogether.

So Fallout 1's low-res sprites (pretty sure that's what they were) would be more expensive than 3D characters made in the year 2013?
 

Infinitron

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
So Fallout 1's low-res sprites (pretty sure that's what they were) would be more expensive than 3D characters made in the year 2013?

No, but they might be more expensive than a 3D character of roughly the same quality.

FF7 Cloud Strife model is simpler to make nowadays than a Baldur's Gate character.
 

FeelTheRads

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So Fallout 1's low-res sprites (pretty sure that's what they were) would be more expensive than 3D characters made in the year 2013?

Sprites, yes. But sprites made from 3D characters which were animated and then rendered as a sequence of images. It really takes a lot of time to work with sprites. Each weapon or armor or whatever you want to show on a sprite requires a different sequence of images, for example. Or a different sequence for each direction in which the character can move.
Definitely would not be more expensive than, I don't know, Far Cry-level graphics, but likely more expensive than what W2 has.

Edit:
And I'm not sure exactly what you understand by sprites, but they really don't necessarily mean "hand painted". You wouldn't get that amount of detail on hand painted AND animated sprites. It's just insane and nobody would even try that.
 

Roderick

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They should hire the guy that does STASIS for doing the graphics, or do a similar style
 

Jaesun

Fabulous Ex-Moderator
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MCA Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech
Fuck no! Leave the STASIS guy alone, so he can finish STASIS and then finish his PA RPG.

Then he can go work for inXile.
 

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