Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Pre-Release Thread [ALPHA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Infinitron]

 

[tuluse]

KoTOR isn't phased based because you can change your actions at any time. For it be phased based you have to issue orders, wait for them to complete, and then issue more orders. No, the fact that KoTOR has animations you have to wait for doesn't count.

 

[Excidium]

Also some people seem to think that phase-based = simultaneous resolution but that's not necessarily the case.

 

[Infinitron]

Shrek: Inform yourself. Get Frozen Synapse next time there's a Steam sale.

PB is more than just a hybrid, since it has greater enemy unpredictability than both TB and RT.

 

[BigWeather]

One problem I always have with PB is, however, what to do when enemies cross paths -- do you just assume that they are like two ships passing in the night or do you throw an interrupt and let them decide what to do on the spot?

I imagine that the default behavior would be for them to start slashing at each other, but you could direct them to avoid combat and just keep on moving (going around the other guy, if necessary)

Yeah, that'd work nice. So a quick interrupt allowing the player to choose then carrying on with the phase resolution. Of course, doesn't that go against the basic idea that the orders can't be changed during resolution? If a choice like "do I enter combat or keep moving?" can be made then why not others? I guess it could be a choice of order up-front: "if I encounter somebody, enter combat" versus "if I encounter somebody, dodge them and keep moving" -- but then there'd be the tendency to want to tweak it even further -- "if I encounter somebody (weaker, not that ettin!!!), enter combat"...

PB is awesome, but sometimes it makes the head hurt.

You'd choose what to do before you started walking. Like a "walk while avoid combat" command. You wouldn't select it during resolution.

Awesome, thanks, that definitely makes it much easier to visualize -- no interrupts what-so-ever.

 

[Excidium]

No? It's about simulating combat which is what we're discussing here.

We are not discussing simulation of Real Life combat. We are discussing simulation of entertaining combat.

That's exactly what I'm talking about.

 

[skuphundaku]

Nobody keeps you from deep tactics and plans in RTwP. However, RT(wP) does inhibit you from efficiently micromanaging everything. I guess that people that are TB exclusivists have an overwhelming need to micromanage everything. I don't know about you, but for me Torment is not the type of game one plays for the thrill of combat micromanagement.

I was going to answer your earlier post first but I can do it here instead. Excidium some of this also deals with our conversation.

What I mean is this.

I picture only two distinct ways in which combat can be arranged in games:

(1) Pitched battles with large number of mobs
(2) Infrequent combat with small number of opponents.

Both are valid ways of having combat according to who you are designing combat for. Diablo for instance does combat the first way, AoD does it the second.

My central claim is: If there is an optimal way to do something then that is what should be employed to do that particular something.

As I see it TB combat is optimal when the game has deep tactics, lots of party members and options and less but really hard encounter based combat. RT is better when there are fewer party members, less options and more encounters.

I see PB as a mid-way solution and to my taste that is not optimal for a particular situation in computer games where combat is involved. This is because a hybrid of type (1) and (2) is not really viable option in most games, unless you invite the problem of trash mobs. Now I admit I have not given this enough thought, and there very well may be encounter types where PB is ideal. If you can suggest them to me I would be glad to hear you out.

Otherwise, I would say that there is no real need to go for PB when pure solutions are available and working.

The problem is that Torment is neither Diablo (DUH... so pure RT against trash mobs type of combat is out of the question) nor AoD (brutal TB combat for the sake of brutal combat) / JA2 (complex tactical TB combat with a large team and potentially large number of opponents as the core gameplay). Torment is a thought-provoking adventure with deep C&C and combat that is not central to the gameplay, but just a facet of a greater whole. That means that something inbetween pure RT and pure TB is needed in order to fit the pace of the game.

 

[Excidium]

JESUS CHRIST YOU ARE DENSE

WHAT THE HELL IS COMBAT IN AN RPG IF NOT A SIMULATION

 

[Koschey]

An abstraction.

 

[Mangoose]

Imagine If you can only walk one step per phase. In the extreme case. It would be like if you played RTwP with pause every 1

Thanks for explaining and you too Alex.

Yes. A PB system is indeed like RTwP if the number of action point in the preparatory phase are very low. But as I see it, that translates into abolition of the benefits of the TB, which is essentially deep tactics and plans.

Nobody keeps you from deep tactics and plans in RTwP. However, RT(wP) does inhibit you from efficiently micromanaging everything. I guess that people that are TB exclusivists have an overwhelming need to micromanage everything. I don't know about you, but for me Torment is not the type of game one plays for the thrill of combat micromanagement.

Then a RTwP game needs to have more strategic/macro-management options during combat (e.g. formations, stances, etc). Or perhaps even a rock-paper-scissors style of class competition. Look towards the Total War games as an example, or maybe King Arthur is a better fit.


Right now most RTwP games do not bring any macromanagement mechanics/options/benefits over TB games. Instead, the most fun you have is when you are micromanaging in a RTwP game, a la mage battles in the IE games. A Fighter, on the other hand, right-clicks and... that's neither micromanagement or macromanagement.. It's just lack of gameplay. As RTwP are not the optimal choice for micro- gameplay, then it has to bring more macro- gameplay features. Otherwise there just results in inferior micromanagement, which is what we see in almost all RTwP games today.

 

[Jashiin]

art

 

[Jaesun]

Torment Tactics.

 

[tuluse]

Also some people seem to think that phase-based = simultaneous resolution but that's not necessarily the case.

True, I'm using phase based to mean phase based and simultaneous turn based. You could use phased based with traditional one after another turn based, but then it loses a lot of what makes it interesting.

 

[Akarnir]

Imagine If you can only walk one step per phase. In the extreme case. It would be like if you played RTwP with pause every 1

Thanks for explaining and you too Alex.

Yes. A PB system is indeed like RTwP if the number of action point in the preparatory phase are very low. But as I see it, that translates into abolition of the benefits of the TB, which is essentially deep tactics and plans.

Nobody keeps you from deep tactics and plans in RTwP. However, RT(wP) does inhibit you from efficiently micromanaging everything. I guess that people that are TB exclusivists have an overwhelming need to micromanage everything. I don't know about you, but for me Torment is not the type of game one plays for the thrill of combat micromanagement.

Then a RTwP game needs to have more strategic/macro-management options during combat (e.g. formations, stances, etc). Or perhaps even a rock-paper-scissors style of class competition. Look towards the Total War games as an example, or maybe King Arthur is a better fit.


Right now most RTwP games do not bring any macromanagement mechanics/options/benefits over TB games. Instead, the most fun you have is when you are micromanaging in a RTwP game, a la mage battles in the IE games. A Fighter, on the other hand, right-clicks and... that's neither micromanagement or macromanagement.. It's just lack of gameplay. As RTwP are not the optimal choice for micro- gameplay, then it has to bring more macro- gameplay features. Otherwise there just results in inferior micromanagement, which is what we see in almost all RTwP games today.

Isn't that what they are trying to do with Project Eternity?

 

[Zeriel]

So, it's confirmed that combat in Torment 2 is going to be total garbage, then?

 

[Mangoose]

One problem I always have with PB is, however, what to do when enemies cross paths -- do you just assume that they are like two ships passing in the night or do you throw an interrupt and let them decide what to do on the spot?

I imagine that the default behavior would be for them to start slashing at each other, but you could direct them to avoid combat and just keep on moving (going around the other guy, if necessary)

Yeah, that'd work nice. So a quick interrupt allowing the player to choose then carrying on with the phase resolution. Of course, doesn't that go against the basic idea that the orders can't be changed during resolution? If a choice like "do I enter combat or keep moving?" can be made then why not others? I guess it could be a choice of order up-front: "if I encounter somebody, enter combat" versus "if I encounter somebody, dodge them and keep moving" -- but then there'd be the tendency to want to tweak it even further -- "if I encounter somebody (weaker, not that ettin!!!), enter combat"...

PB is awesome, but sometimes it makes the head hurt.

Yes, that's one complication with PB... In that it's difficult to cover all the angles in your order. Complexity increases and then it can get hard or even tedious for the player to fine tune each order. But I've only tried Frozen Synapse (where failures occur often due to forgetting something in my order) so I'm not sure how simpler PB games play.

 

[Helly]

Torment Tactics.

Tormented Alliance

 

[Captain Shrek]

Torment Tactics.

Tormented Alliance

Oh please.

JA2 is TB. You can make that clear and absolve JA2 of the blame by saying. TNO:BIA.

EDIT: Scratch that.

The Soulless one : Back in action

 

[Captain Shrek]

Right now most RTwP games do not bring any macromanagement mechanics/options/benefits over TB games. Instead, the most fun you have is when you are micromanaging in a RTwP game, a la mage battles in the IE games. A Fighter, on the other hand, right-clicks and... that's neither micromanagement or macromanagement.. It's just lack of gameplay. As RTwP are not the optimal choice for micro- gameplay, then it has to bring more macro- gameplay features. Otherwise there just results in inferior micromanagement, which is what we see in almost all RTwP games today.

Although I still have gripes about having a 6 member party in RTwP.

 

[Jaesun]

The Soulless one : Back in action

 

[uaciaut]

KoTOR isn't phased based because you can change your actions at any time. For it be phased based you have to issue orders, wait for them to complete, and then issue more orders. No, the fact that KoTOR has animations you have to wait for doesn't count.

You can't cancel an action that's already begun (i.e. if character started swinging his sword and you cancel it to queue something else you have to wait for the attack to actually take place first).

I'm probably gonna get an pitchfork army attacking me for saying this but i don't understand why people love TB SO much and hate RTwP about as much as they like TB. Well i shouldn't say that i don't entirely understand - i think in some aspects TB is easier to balance around since you're giving limited resources for action but what stands out most compared to RTwP is that you get limited resources for movement which adds a strategical aspects to positioning and planning ahead in combat. The main reason this falls off for RTwP (at least in my opinion) is because most of the time people don't really implement the movement part properly in the game - in BG2 for example kiting and blocking became obsolete because movement haste made movement pretty much irrelevant. Within a round (6 seconds iirc) which was the same time you could either cast a spell or do a certain, capped number of attacks, you could move almost half a map with haste or boots of speed.
This is easily fixed by simply making sure movement in general is an important resource relative to your other resources (attacks, spells, etc). Sure i don't think anyone pulled it off perfectly but i think it's doable - you just need to try to effectively convert the value of action points into a relatively equal/similar value of action (attack, move, cast spell) speed, since time is a non-issue in TB.

Unless i'm missing something about the whole TB argument, hopefully you guys won't pound my anus too hard about it D:

 

[Mangoose]

I think it's funny developers (well, Bioware) keep shoehorning micromanagement-heavy mechanics into RTwP frameworks. IE mage battles would've worked fine in a TB system. The WoW-bar-style RTwP in DA/2 is just retarded. Don't get me started on Cyanide's games.

But RTwP is more visceral than TB so choice made.

This is easily fixed by simply making sure movement in general is an important resource relative to your other resources (attacks, spells, etc). Sure i don't think anyone pulled it off perfectly but i think it's doable - you just need to try to effectively convert the value of action points into a relatively equal/similar value of action (attack, move, cast spell) speed, since time is a non-issue in TB.

Uh... The "real-time" component of RTwP already takes care of this.

 

[skuphundaku]

Right now most RTwP games do not bring any macromanagement mechanics/options/benefits over TB games. Instead, the most fun you have is when you are micromanaging in a RTwP game, a la mage battles in the IE games. A Fighter, on the other hand, right-clicks and... that's neither micromanagement or macromanagement.. It's just lack of gameplay. As RTwP are not the optimal choice for micro- gameplay, then it has to bring more macro- gameplay features. Otherwise there just results in inferior micromanagement, which is what we see in almost all RTwP games today.

You can call it "lack of gameplay" but you consider that combat is a make-or-break component. I don't consider combat as a make-or-break component in Torment. Quite the contrary, I consider that too much combat/too slow combat/too difficult combat will actually detract from me enjoying the game... unless combat is completely avoidable like in AoD (or Fallout). In PS:T it wasn't completely avoidable, but it was so piss-easy that it wasn't an inconvenience.

 

[Mangoose]

Right now most RTwP games do not bring any macromanagement mechanics/options/benefits over TB games. Instead, the most fun you have is when you are micromanaging in a RTwP game, a la mage battles in the IE games. A Fighter, on the other hand, right-clicks and... that's neither micromanagement or macromanagement.. It's just lack of gameplay. As RTwP are not the optimal choice for micro- gameplay, then it has to bring more macro- gameplay features. Otherwise there just results in inferior micromanagement, which is what we see in almost all RTwP games today.

You can call it "lack of gameplay" but you consider that combat is a make-or-break component. I don't consider combat as a make-or-break component in Torment. Quite the contrary, I consider that too much combat/too slow combat/too difficult combat will actually detract from me enjoying the game... unless combat is completely avoidable like in AoD (or Fallout). In PS:T it wasn't completely avoidable, but it was so piss-easy that it wasn't an inconvenience.

Then design the encounters to not be annoying. Limit them. Or make them avoidable. Or if they're going to be piss-easy anyways, just scrap combat altogether and have the battle take place in dialogue.

Don't nerf the underlying combat mechanics. This is not rocket science. There are more choices in designing a game than combat mechanics, and you don't sacrifice the quality of one aspect of the game framework when a different part can be modified with less problems.

And, from my point of view, the combat encounters in PST are really fucking annoying.

 

[Rake]

Torment Tactics.

Tormented Alliance

Oh please.

JA2 is TB. You can make that clear and absolve JA2 of the blame by saying. TNO:BIA.

EDIT: Scratch that.

The Soulless one : Back in action

You come from the position that RTwP is inherently worse than TB in every situation except Diablo's mindless hack and slash. Noone disagrees that TB is more tactical. But how much tactics do you need in a Torment game anyway? And no, the "few and difficult encounters" doesn't cut it. What kind of difficulty are you excpecting? Because i read somewhere up in the comments (in the Codex af all places) to have one difficulty be Godmode because we can't have a difficult encounter keeping players away from the story.
Torment was not a hard game.
And a large part of the backers( Biodrones,extreem storyfags, people who don't play games but read books) were fans of the original, but if you had a difficult encounter which demanded thought, tactics, and 3 tries to beat it would puke.
To have better and more fun combat is good. To have significantly harder combat i think would be a wrong move for inXile.