Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Pre-Release Thread [ALPHA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Captain Shrek]

Mangoose and skuphundaku especially the latter.

Just read each other's post and you will realize that you actually agree and there is no need to debate.

 

[Rake]

Right now most RTwP games do not bring any macromanagement mechanics/options/benefits over TB games. Instead, the most fun you have is when you are micromanaging in a RTwP game, a la mage battles in the IE games. A Fighter, on the other hand, right-clicks and... that's neither micromanagement or macromanagement.. It's just lack of gameplay. As RTwP are not the optimal choice for micro- gameplay, then it has to bring more macro- gameplay features. Otherwise there just results in inferior micromanagement, which is what we see in almost all RTwP games today.

You can call it "lack of gameplay" but you consider that combat is a make-or-break component. I don't consider combat as a make-or-break component in Torment. Quite the contrary, I consider that too much combat/too slow combat/too difficult combat will actually detract from me enjoying the game... unless combat is completely avoidable like in AoD (or Fallout). In PS:T it wasn't completely avoidable, but it was so piss-easy that it wasn't an inconvenience.

^This.

 

[Excidium]

People on the codex live under the idea that combat is some rocket science that can only be done right at the expense of other parts of the game.

 

[skuphundaku]

When talking about combat, how does it matter what kind of game Torment is, beyond what kind of encounter it wishes to implement? I thoroughly agree that the game is more related to the story and elements associated with the story. But honestly I can not fathom why that affects the core combat mechanics beyond the scarcity and the type of the encounters. Having said that, the way I read it and get impressions, is from the Kickstarter page. I have highlighted the relevant portion:

Torment will emphasize the quality of combat encounters over quantity. We have different combat systems in mind to reach this goal and will engage backers on this topic throughout the process. The game will be a more cerebral RPG than most, with less hack-and-slash and accumulation of items and more NPC interaction, problem solving, and reflection. Torment will have thrilling combat and fantastic items, of course, but the game isn’t an action RPG. The items you find will be awe-inspiring, not just through the powers they provide but through their rich histories and their relevance to the narrative.

This sounds suspiciously like the second type of combat I mentioned in relation to Turn based mechanics. Now the argument bounces back to the claim I made earlier that such a encounter type has an ideal solution which is TB combat. AoD is just an example. Turn based combat encompasses quite a bit of variety going from JA2 to DnD based systems. So there is a lot of choice in terms of how exact design requirements can be met if there are nuanced issues.

AoD is not, by any stretch of imagination, a good example of how combat in Torment should be. The people that loved PS:T for the adventure part (story, C&C, setting, lore) would have massive trouble with AoD style of combat and the people that love AoD style of combat would be bored shitless by the adventure part. You can't cut the PS:T style adventure part out of Torment, otherwise it would be AoD (inXile Edition), so the only rational alternative is to tone down the combat and make it more painless and quicker. You can't do that by making the combat TB. What remains is either PB or RTwP and the details surrounding the implementation of their chosen alternative.

 

[Mangoose]

Right now most RTwP games do not bring any macromanagement mechanics/options/benefits over TB games. Instead, the most fun you have is when you are micromanaging in a RTwP game, a la mage battles in the IE games. A Fighter, on the other hand, right-clicks and... that's neither micromanagement or macromanagement.. It's just lack of gameplay. As RTwP are not the optimal choice for micro- gameplay, then it has to bring more macro- gameplay features. Otherwise there just results in inferior micromanagement, which is what we see in almost all RTwP games today.

You can call it "lack of gameplay" but you consider that combat is a make-or-break component. I don't consider combat as a make-or-break component in Torment. Quite the contrary, I consider that too much combat/too slow combat/too difficult combat will actually detract from me enjoying the game... unless combat is completely avoidable like in AoD (or Fallout). In PS:T it wasn't completely avoidable, but it was so piss-easy that it wasn't an inconvenience.

^This.

Designing for easy combat is a waste of $$$ and time. If the result of the combat will be that obvious, then make it a dialogue choice and move on.

If you are going to force me to experience gameplay for an XX number of minutes, then it better not be wasting my time - in other words, piss-easy combat.

 

[Excidium]

People need to stop with this fucking myth that TB combat is slow. AoD is slow because of the snail animations and the fact that even an unarmored old man needs to be filled with crossbow bolts to the face to finally die.

 

[Mastermind]

Noone disagrees that TB is more tactical.

There is nothing more or less inherently tactical about TB. A while back i played a jrpg with TB combat that introduced twitch elements to it (you did more damage if you pressed the button at the right time during your attack, which was basically a qte). Turn-based = tactical is the product of codex retardation.

 

[Mangoose]

A RTwP game should require the player to make fewer but more important/wider-affecting (<- strategic) choices in battle.

A TB game kinda has more free reign, though if you have too few choices to make, you're not taking advantage of the system and could very well be done as a RTwP instead.



en general

 

[Rake]

A RTwP game should require the player to make fewer but more important/wider-affecting (<- strategic) choices in battle.

A TB game kinda has more free reign, though if you have too few choices to make, you're not taking advantage of the system and could very well be done as a RTwP instead.



en general

This. Now tell me based on that you wrote why RTwP in Torment would be such a travesty.
By no means i'm against TB for this game. Having said that i think RTwP will be a better fit.
Torment's combat wasn't bad because of RTwP. It was bad because combat was an afterthought. If P:T had BG2's or IWD's combat much fewer people would have problem with it.

 

[Akarnir]

KoTOR isn't phased based because you can change your actions at any time. For it be phased based you have to issue orders, wait for them to complete, and then issue more orders. No, the fact that KoTOR has animations you have to wait for doesn't count.

You can't cancel an action that's already begun (i.e. if character started swinging his sword and you cancel it to queue something else you have to wait for the attack to actually take place first).

I'm probably gonna get an pitchfork army attacking me for saying this but i don't understand why people love TB SO much and hate RTwP about as much as they like TB. Well i shouldn't say that i don't entirely understand - i think in some aspects TB is easier to balance around since you're giving limited resources for action but what stands out most compared to RTwP is that you get limited resources for movement which adds a strategical aspects to positioning and planning ahead in combat. The main reason this falls off for RTwP (at least in my opinion) is because most of the time people don't really implement the movement part properly in the game - in BG2 for example kiting and blocking became obsolete because movement haste made movement pretty much irrelevant. Within a round (6 seconds iirc) which was the same time you could either cast a spell or do a certain, capped number of attacks, you could move almost half a map with haste or boots of speed.
This is easily fixed by simply making sure movement in general is an important resource relative to your other resources (attacks, spells, etc). Sure i don't think anyone pulled it off perfectly but i think it's doable - you just need to try to effectively convert the value of action points into a relatively equal/similar value of action (attack, move, cast spell) speed, since time is a non-issue in TB.

Unless i'm missing something about the whole TB argument, hopefully you guys won't pound my anus too hard about it D:

I approve. Especially the movement part.

 

[Mangoose]

A RTwP game should require the player to make fewer but more important/wider-affecting (<- strategic) choices in battle.

A TB game kinda has more free reign, though if you have too few choices to make, you're not taking advantage of the system and could very well be done as a RTwP instead.



en general

This. Now tell me based on that you wrote why RTwP in Torment would be such a travesty.

I did not say anything negative about properly done RTwP.

The typical RTwP is a combination of shoehorned micromanagement (clickable abilities, spells, etc.), and outside of target priority, complete lack of choice.

 

[Excidium]

Would be cool to know the actual numenera mechanics since they are adapting it for Torment.

 

[Rake]

A RTwP game should require the player to make fewer but more important/wider-affecting (<- strategic) choices in battle.

A TB game kinda has more free reign, though if you have too few choices to make, you're not taking advantage of the system and could very well be done as a RTwP instead.



en general

This. Now tell me based on that you wrote why RTwP in Torment would be such a travesty.

I did not say anything negative about properly done RTwP.

If the combat system is not properly done, combat will be shit anyway. In fact shit TB would be even worse than shit RTwP for a Torment game.

 

[skuphundaku]

AoD is not what I am suggesting for Torment 2. I just quoted that as an example.

Don't get me wrong, if each and every combat encounter would be avoidable, and avoiding combat would come with both downsides as well as benefits, in order to make you seriously consider whether getting into a fight is worth it, then AoD style combat wouldn't be an issue. What I think is a bad idea is to have too difficult, unavoidable combat in game in which combat is not the main focus.

 

[Jaesun]

Would be cool to know the actual numenera mechanics since they are adapting it for Torment.

Exactly.

 

[Mangoose]

A RTwP game should require the player to make fewer but more important/wider-affecting (<- strategic) choices in battle.

A TB game kinda has more free reign, though if you have too few choices to make, you're not taking advantage of the system and could very well be done as a RTwP instead.



en general

This. Now tell me based on that you wrote why RTwP in Torment would be such a travesty.

I did not say anything negative about properly done RTwP.

If the combat system is not properly done, combat will be shit anyway. In fact shit TB would be even worse than shit RTwP for a Torment game.

The problem is that RTwP is not properly done, unless you look outside of RPGs.

What I think is a bad idea is to have too difficult, unavoidable combat in game in which combat is not the main focus.

Combat is not being the main focus doesn't mean that your choices shouldn't carry the risk of difficult combat sometimes. Otherwise you are diluting the C&C/writing aspect of the game, by diluting a possible consequence.

And while it is not the main focus, it is a mentioned focus.

 

[Zeriel]

People need to stop with this fucking myth that TB combat is slow. AoD is slow because of the snail animations and the fact that even an unarmored old man needs to be filled with crossbow bolts to the face to finally die.

This. Multiplayer games of XCOM are super quick, probably average a few minutes per game. Unfortunately, good games of any sort tend to be rare, and good turn-based games were (I suppose) rare enough that this notion that turn-based had to be slow and klunky got wedged in people's heads.

 

[tuluse]

The problem is that RTwP is not properly done, unless you look outside of RPGs.

One could say the same for turn based, and only have a few exceptions proving them wrong

 

[Zeriel]

People need to stop with this fucking myth that TB combat is slow. AoD is slow because of the snail animations and the fact that even an unarmored old man needs to be filled with crossbow bolts to the face to finally die.

This. Multiplayer games of XCOM are super quick, probably average a few minutes per game. Unfortunately, good games of any sort tend to be rare, and good turn-based games were (I suppose) rare enough that this notion that turn-based had to be slow and klunky got wedged in people's heads.

We talked about this before.

The new XCOM is way simplified.

Yet it's still hugely superior to pretty much every mainstream turn-based or RTwP game on the market in recent years. (Yeah, yeah, low bar.) It also demonstrates for the purposes of this argument that turn-based is not necessarily slow or kludgy. I'd argue the same thing of the original X-COM too, to a certain extent.

 

[Zeriel]

My personal experience is that the best turn-based systems trump the best of any other system in RPGs/Strategy games that don't revolve around true, real-time gameplay. So if it's not going to be a corridor shooter, I'd prefer it to be turn-based. Apparently Good Things Are Never Allowed To Happen, though, so we'll get some phase-based abomination that we all try to avoid as much as possible. Oh well, there's always Wasteland 2. I suppose one out of three old school revival games getting it right ain't bad.

 

[Mangoose]

The problem is that RTwP is not properly done, unless you look outside of RPGs.

One could say the same for turn based, and only have a few exceptions proving them wrong

ToEE, KotC, Tactics Ogre, FFT, Pokemon (yes), Hammer & Sickle,

And basically any PnP game with good combat will work design-wise for a computer game.

Name one RTwP RPG done right.

 

[Gozma]

You know why the combat in Fallout felt pretty good, despite being fairly rare and very shallow? Comedy gib criticals. That's how the entirety of the combat in that game was able to interest you when you first played it. If you liked Fallout you gotta admit to yourself that's enough to carry a game's combat for you.

I think combat being charming somehow would be fine, but I really mostly just want to avoid shit combat deathmarches like Curst Prison or one of the other terrible stretches of PS:T

 

[tuluse]

The problem is that RTwP is not properly done, unless you look outside of RPGs.

One could say the same for turn based, and only have a few exceptions proving them wrong

ToEE, KotC, Tactics Ogre, FFT, Pokemon (yes), Hammer & Sickle,

And basically any PnP game with good combat will work design-wise for a computer game.

Name one RTwP RPG done right.

Well I completely disagree that Pokemon has good combat. It has good character creation which is represented well in combat, but the actual combat is boring.

Also, I liked BG2, sue me.

 

[tuluse]

KoTOR isn't phased based because you can change your actions at any time. For it be phased based you have to issue orders, wait for them to complete, and then issue more orders. No, the fact that KoTOR has animations you have to wait for doesn't count.

You can't cancel an action that's already begun (i.e. if character started swinging his sword and you cancel it to queue something else you have to wait for the attack to actually take place first).

The fact that things take time and are not interruptible does make it phased based.

You can issue orders at any time, there are no "phases", it's not phased based.

 

[Mangoose]

Well I completely disagree that Pokemon has good combat. It has good character creation which is represented well in combat, but the actual combat is boring.

Is that due to the combat system, or is that due to the AI, or is it due to the encounter design? There are many factors in determining whether combat is "boring" or not.

Also, I liked BG2, sue me.

Well, think about why you liked it. Did the aspect that you like actually take advantage of the combat system being RTwP? If the game were changed to turn-based while leaving most or all of the rest of the elements intact, would that improve or worsen the game, or change it at all?