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Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Pre-Release Thread [ALPHA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

skuphundaku

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Codex 2012 Codex 2013 MCA Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2 My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
That's just as retarded as what the waifu crowd are clamoring for. It's retarded because there are no consequences for your choices... it's plain old Bioware C&C. So Bioware C&C is bad, but when we do it to satisfy our pettiness it's all good? Fuck that shit! Grow up!

Did you miss 'multiple outcomes'? There are more ways to sling it than 'win or lose', if you care to use your brain.
You said:
it blows up in the PCs face no matter what, before it goes anywhere - multiple outcomes, but all of them denying 'ye olde happy ending'
It blowing up in one's face in various ways no matter what is not multiple outcomes. It's like claiming that a different critical death animation in Fallout is a different outcome. No, it's not, it's just different sprinkles on the same outcome.
 

taxalot

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Codex 2013 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
Wasn't PS:T a story based on romance ? :pete:

Ah, technically you could add Deionarra as a "romance" too. Damn, now I want to play that game again. :/

The whole game and situation in PS:T is because TNO's relationship to Deionarra , PS:T is basically a game about a love story that went wrong.

I disagree, Deionarra played a pretty big role in the eventual success of the incarnation we are playing, but it for sure wasn't the main one. She is just another piece of preparation the practical incarnation put in action...

I might be remembering the game wrong, but didn't TNO become immortal because he wanted to be with Deionerra forever ?
 

Surf Solar

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I might be remembering the game wrong, but didn't TNO become immortal because he wanted to be with Deionerra forever ?

He wanted to become immortal because of some "unspeakable crimes" he once did to do good things and pay back for the rest of his live.
 

Zeriel

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Maybe I missed something major, but I didn't think it was ever spelled out why he became immortal, and I seem to remember the incarnation that actually met and got together with Deionarra when she was alive didn't even give a shit about her, was just manipulating her for his own ends.
 

uaciaut

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Wasn't PS:T a story based on romance ? :pete:

Ah, technically you could add Deionarra as a "romance" too. Damn, now I want to play that game again. :/

The whole game and situation in PS:T is because TNO's relationship to Deionarra , PS:T is basically a game about a love story that went wrong.

I don't get how the Deionarra thing is that important for the plot.
If you want to minimize i think PS:T is more a story that revolves around everyone of relative importance wanting TNO's dick in one form or another, starting from Ravel who's the most pivotal in bringing him to his current state to Deionarra, Annah, Fall from Grace. Then the male components just show a raving obsession for TNO because one reason or another too, Dakkon threads on his beliefs to become his slave, Vhailor endures death to wait for him, Morte stays with him time and time again despite his treasonous nature, etc.

Truth be told i still like to see Planescape as a fantasy-weird variation of the Odyssey, that may be just my imagination though D:
 

Infinitron

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Planescape's locations were done in 3D. Prerendered 3D.

I don't believe it will be as big a hassle on the engine as you think, skup. The main expense is in creating the backgrounds themselves. Getting the game to work with them once they're done is probably easier than getting a real time 3D environment to work smoothly.
 

Mangoose

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Someone mentioned earlier, maybe tuluse, that PE will have formations or stances or something of that ilk. Did I misread? If not, can you link me to the source and some expanded details? I'm mighty curious, thanks!
 

skuphundaku

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Planescape's locations were done in 3D. Prerendered 3D.

I don't believe it will be as big a hassle on the engine as you think, skup. The main expense is in creating the backgrounds themselves. Getting the game to work with them once they're done is probably easier than getting a real time 3D environment to work smoothly.
I don't recall who or in which thread already said it, but it goes like this:
2D:
1. Create 3D scene in motherfucking hi-res
2. Render it offline with the latest next-gen renderer to make it as shiny as possible
3. Add the characters (which in P:E are 3D and it would be the same in Torment) on top of the newly rendered 2D backdrops and make sure they blend in nicely with the environment (which may or may not be that easy, you may even have to go back to 1. or 2. and iterate until everything fits)
3D:
1. Create everything in 3D with enough details to look good but don't go overboard because it needs to be rendered in real time
2. Add everything to the scene, set a camera somewhere high up and render everything in real time - everything will always fit perfectly

On top of this, going 2D would mean that modding would be much more difficult... and I mean serious modding, like in adding new locations and stuff, not just new characters and other content using the existing locations.
 

winterraptor

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Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera
You said:
it blows up in the PCs face no matter what, before it goes anywhere - multiple outcomes, but all of them denying 'ye olde happy ending'
It blowing up in one's face in various ways no matter what is not multiple outcomes. It's like claiming that a different critical death animation in Fallout is a different outcome. No, it's not, it's just different sprinkles on the same outcome.

No, it's like claiming that the standard ye or nay of 'tap it or don't' is not the end-all-be-all. That is pretty absurd, to essentially equate me saying that eliminating the success of a romance removes all choice and consequence, all possibilities beyond 'sprinkles of the same outcome'. You're saying the only definition of different outcomes is if one can 'win'. If you can't, no other outcomes matter. That you can't fathom 'failure', even horrible doomed failure, as having worthwhile differentiated branches beyond the simplicity of win/lose then you aren't very creative. Just because Bioware set a crap standard doesn't mean a branching scenario like this is impossible.

By all means, though, if they can't accomplish better than Bioware, so be it: leave it alone...

I'm fairy neutral in terms of what some romance is going to do for my enjoyment of the game. If they are going for it, twist it on it's head, do something different with it, without catering to some niche fetishes and/or trying to spread around 'equality'. Snub the debate. It's risky, granted, and ultimately I wouldn't want anything just crammed in artificially if it doesn't jive with the rest of their plans.
 

Zeriel

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And the actual process isn't really very different.

It's more like:

3D:

1. Create 3D scene in motherfucking hi-res.
2. Render it offline with the latest next-gen renderer to make it as shiny as possible.
3. Take all your assets and run them through a converter to make them less expensive to render in real-time.

2D:

1 and 2, then
3. Touch things up for a few minutes, then bake.

Either way, making good-looking 3D assets is basically identical, anything that is significantly cheaper is just shittier quality, not a vastly different production pipeline.
 

skuphundaku

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And the actual process isn't really very different.

It's more like:

3D:

1. Create 3D scene in motherfucking hi-res.
2. Render it offline with the latest next-gen renderer to make it as shiny as possible.
3. Take all your assets and run them through a converter to make them less expensive to render in real-time.

2D:

1 and 2, then
3. Touch things up for a few minutes, then bake.

Either way, making good-looking 3D assets is basically identical, anything that is significantly cheaper is just shittier quality, not a vastly different production pipeline.
Until this post, I thought I was arguing with a rational, informed being, but I see that you're either irrational, completely ignorant, or a moron.
 

skuphundaku

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You said:
it blows up in the PCs face no matter what, before it goes anywhere - multiple outcomes, but all of them denying 'ye olde happy ending'
It blowing up in one's face in various ways no matter what is not multiple outcomes. It's like claiming that a different critical death animation in Fallout is a different outcome. No, it's not, it's just different sprinkles on the same outcome.

No, it's like claiming that the standard ye or nay of 'tap it or don't' is not the end-all-be-all. That is pretty absurd, to essentially equate me saying that eliminating the success of a romance removes all choice and consequence, all possibilities beyond 'sprinkles of the same outcome'. You're saying the only definition of different outcomes is if one can 'win'. If you can't, no other outcomes matter. That you can't fathom 'failure', even horrible doomed failure, as having worthwhile differentiated branches beyond the simplicity of win/lose then you aren't very creative. Just because Bioware set a crap standard doesn't mean a branching scenario like this is impossible.

By all means, though, if they can't accomplish better than Bioware, so be it: leave it alone...

I'm fairy neutral in terms of what some romance is going to do for my enjoyment of the game. If they are going for it, twist it on it's head, do something different with it, without catering to some niche fetishes and/or trying to spread around 'equality'. Snub the debate. It's risky, granted, and ultimately I wouldn't want anything just crammed in artificially if it doesn't jive with the rest of their plans.
But the standard ye or nay of 'tap it or don't' IS the end-all-be-all of all life. That's the no. 1 biological imperative that govern all living things.

Failing in various ways can influence other things apart from the romance itself. But then, we're not talking just about the romance plot and the point is moot. The romance plot itself can have only two outcomes: success or failure. If it succeeds in more than one way and/or fails in more than one way, then these variations necessarily influence other things/events in the game world, and, as I was saying, we're not talking just about romances anymore, but about the wider C&C. In that case, yes, some of the romance failure states can give you advantages in other areas. But the romance itself, if it lacks both possible outcomes, then it comes across just as a silly gotcha created by bitter omegas.
 

winterraptor

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Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera
But the standard ye or nay of 'tap it or don't' IS the end-all-be-all of all life. That's the no. 1 biological imperative that govern all living things.

Which can change in a billion years and with entities that defy convention...their romances might not equate to the same thing.

Failing in various ways can influence other things apart from the romance itself. But then, we're not talking just about the romance plot and the point is moot. The romance plot itself can have only two outcomes: success or failure. If it succeeds in more than one way and/or fails in more than one way, then these variations necessarily influence other things/events in the game world, and, as I was saying, we're not talking just about romances anymore, but about the wider C&C. In that case, yes, some of the romance failure states can give you advantages in other areas.

Not just influence other things, the romance can influence the relationship to the NPC in general, and choices could change the nature of it going down the path of inevitable separation. Circumstances outside the relationship can further influence it, creating separate problems. Problems in and of themselves probably do not equate to 'romance path continues or ends', which is too simplistic, though some of them may, whether they're immediately obvious or not. But choices alter the ongoing impression of the NPC, which also should not always be obvious with such shit as numbers flashing across the screen and queues from behavior. Kept entirely in the background, and a more sophisticated gradient than an ascending or descending number, anyway, preferably. Sometimes it 'ends' without even seeing why. Oh, that's frustrating? Too fuckin bad, that's life. Get over it. Play a *character* and see what happens, don't try and game it. Guess your way through.

Unseen variables can create more or less random scenarios to further challenge the Path. Including things simply happening in the greater plot. The path being inevitably doomed, its like a slow attrition. Depending on choices, the circumstances on how it happens can be entirely different, and the aftereffects in different gradients of consequence. In many cases, the consequences coming down from the choices are beneficial, and even the end can have a saving grace, despite the fact the 'romance' part is done, killed. The key to dismissing the win/loss formula is a battery of effects, some good, some bad, some in-between, some hard to even say. In the relationship, in the world, in the NPC, in the PC, etc. The possibilities seem endless to me. Just depends on the designers and how much time is allocated to it.

As a random thought, one interesting conclusion might be with a telepath character, where the PC and they form a permanent mental link/communion (by whatever means, maybe even by accident or outside influence). Perhaps this act alone concludes in their minds that the bond is not what they thought it was. Perhaps they learn this in the exploration. Perhaps they cannot handle it, and after an arduous, scarring ordeal, they find a way to break it, and their once seemingly-promising relationship is entirely shattered on a psychic level, with many different aftereffects of it's own.

But the romance itself, if it lacks both possible outcomes, then it comes across just as a silly gotcha created by bitter omegas.

A matter of taste, as to me, its perfectly natural in a game like this to assign static 'themes' (in this case, tragedy, or, less dramatically, simple relational doom) over characters or relationships. The whole game is arrayed around themes. If the failed romance adds another reflection of the whole, another layer in the onion of the unfolding narrative, it can add something despite completely dodging the 'get it on' phase, or the 'sweetie-pie' stage, whatever...insert non-contributing feel good scenario here.

If I designed this, and someone asked me 'why does it always have to end badly?', I'd just say, 'This is how it's themed. You have many opportunities for consolation prizes along the way, sweetheart.'

Anyway, I know, expanded things into a big pipedream, but ah well, is fun to consider.
 

Kem0sabe

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I don't recall who or in which thread already said it, but it goes like this:
2D:
1. Create 3D scene in motherfucking hi-res
2. Render it offline with the latest next-gen renderer to make it as shiny as possible
3. Add the characters (which in P:E are 3D and it would be the same in Torment) on top of the newly rendered 2D backdrops and make sure they blend in nicely with the environment (which may or may not be that easy, you may even have to go back to 1. or 2. and iterate until everything fits)
3D:
1. Create everything in 3D with enough details to look good but don't go overboard because it needs to be rendered in real time
2. Add everything to the scene, set a camera somewhere high up and render everything in real time - everything will always fit perfectly

On top of this, going 2D would mean that modding would be much more difficult... and I mean serious modding, like in adding new locations and stuff, not just new characters and other content using the existing locations.

Have you seen their 3d efforts with Wasteland? These are the same artists, modelers, designers we are talking about. What point is it to have a wonderful world to work with if the level art doesn´t do it justice?

I´m not a graphics whore, far from it but part of what made me fall in "love" with PS:T was the beautiful world they visually crafted, i haven´t yet seen a 3D RPG that even comes close to games like PS:T and IWD 2. So if these same guys have shown that they haven´t the time, inclination or capacity to make the first of it´s kind isometric 3D RPG that looks amazing, then why go that route?

As you said before, i always have a choice of not pledging if they don´t go for the isometric 2D look. *shrug*
 

Kem0sabe

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You are not a graphics whore? You are a graphic whore.





You don't care about the gameplay or the story it seems, but about the graphics.




And that would somehow suddenly make them inclined to do undertake 2D graphics with fervor?

How quaint.

I´ve posted before about PS:T and have always talked about the story and how great it was along with the C&C, dunno why discussing the graphics and how i loved them in PS:T makes me a graphics whore.

Didn´t understand your last comment, haven´t they shown that they have the capacity to make incredible 2D games before? These guys are legends in that regard and i´m sure they will get as much if not more funding than P:E, why not follow their lead and make something we all can enjoy?

I know that P:E was pitched from the start as having 2D rendered backgrounds, but i think most people assume that when you are speaking about a PS:T sequel, it would be 2D.
 

skuphundaku

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I don't recall who or in which thread already said it, but it goes like this:
2D:
1. Create 3D scene in motherfucking hi-res
2. Render it offline with the latest next-gen renderer to make it as shiny as possible
3. Add the characters (which in P:E are 3D and it would be the same in Torment) on top of the newly rendered 2D backdrops and make sure they blend in nicely with the environment (which may or may not be that easy, you may even have to go back to 1. or 2. and iterate until everything fits)
3D:
1. Create everything in 3D with enough details to look good but don't go overboard because it needs to be rendered in real time
2. Add everything to the scene, set a camera somewhere high up and render everything in real time - everything will always fit perfectly

On top of this, going 2D would mean that modding would be much more difficult... and I mean serious modding, like in adding new locations and stuff, not just new characters and other content using the existing locations.

Have you seen their 3d efforts with Wasteland? These are the same artists, modelers, designers we are talking about. What point is it to have a wonderful world to work with if the level art doesn´t do it justice?

I´m not a graphics whore, far from it but part of what made me fall in "love" with PS:T was the beautiful world they visually crafted, i haven´t yet seen a 3D RPG that even comes close to games like PS:T and IWD 2. So if these same guys have shown that they haven´t the time, inclination or capacity to make the first of it´s kind isometric 3D RPG that looks amazing, then why go that route?

As you said before, i always have a choice of not pledging if they don´t go for the isometric 2D look. *shrug*
I don't know what you're talking about. The graphics in the WL2 video were great. I have no taste for the whole "graphic-whore/anti-graphic-whore" posturing, but, personally, the WL2 graphics are more than adequate to carry the game (WL2 I mean). For Torment, some more effort would be needed to create more alien/weird locations, but that's far from impossible to realize with the WL2 engine.
 

Captain Shrek

Guest
I find it incredible that everyone keeps on claiming that 2D graphics are superior because they were used in IE games. No you IDIOTS, IE graphics are good because they were done by GOOD artists!!!
 

Kem0sabe

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I don't know what you're talking about. The graphics in the WL2 video were great. I have no taste for the whole "graphic-whore/anti-graphic-whore" posturing, but, personally, the WL2 graphics are more than adequate to carry the game (WL2 I mean). For Torment, some more effort would be needed to create more alien/weird locations, but that's far from impossible to realize with the WL2 engine.

I enjoyed the WL2 video for what it was, and i'm certainly buying it due to what it will be, an amazing trek through post-apocalyptic America with a heavy use of turned based combat. The world art was never something i was expecting to be great, especially when they pitched it as 3D, and art being art, it's subjective to everyone's eye, so as you enjoyed the design, i most certainly didn't.

Torment on the other hand, is a journey through an alien world, the world itself is as part of the story and appeal as the characters, Numenera sounding as amazing as it does and all, in my mind, the only way to do it justice would be with beautiful almost surreal 2D maps, and budget and time constraints aside, wouldn't everyone here want that?

If they are forthright and simply say that "sorry but our budget or our development tools don´t allow us the time to spend crafting a 2D world", then no problem, but they have been pretty noncommittal about it, and that leaves me anxious. :)
 

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