Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Thread

[agris]

heh, bad limited indeed.

 

[Lurker King]

I more or less stopped liking RPGs and fantasy in general a while ago

The problem is that not just cRPGs, but videogames in general tend to be time consuming.

And even AOD, I didn't bother to learn the combat system and just played it as talking characters..

If you are only looking for narratives in cRPGs, you will stopped liking cRPGs. I understand you may have no time, but if you dive in the mechanics, your whole appreciation of the genre will improve significantly. Even if you have no interest in killing things, the complexity of the systems are rewards in their own right. Mastering an interesting combat system is like learning a new kind of chess. It’s beautiful.

 

[Gunnar]

I'm enjoying the game despite it's faults. It's entertaining and that's all that really matters at the end of the day.

 

[Chamezero]

68%

 

[Lilura]

In every way, we tried to take what people loved about PS:T and push it even further. - Adam of inXile



Player response on GoG (source):

Yeah, tried and failed.

Planescape: Torment feels like a work of art. Like a coherent vision that came together harmoniously, put together with the tools the people who made it had available to them at the time.

Torment: Tides of Numenera feels like a dessicated corpse prancing around in PS:T's clothes desperately trying to form an association between the two in the audience's mind. Where you'd be hard pressed to find flaws with PS:T in much but the lacking combat and pathing and it's sometimes excessive writing, T:ToN does almost nothing right. It's hard to even know where to start. Though the start itself is a pretty good point: Don't overload me with text before I've even started playing the game! Let me get established as a character and THEN start having me interact with the game world. I can't made decisions in an RPG if I don't know who I am or what the consequences of my actions are! You're just wasting my time with all this text!

Then the second thing you notice is the characters. The characters are nearly to a man awful and unlikable. None of them (except the player character and arguably Erretis, the only companion who was even remotely likable just becuse at least the poor guy wasn't responsible for how he always acted like an obnoxious asshole) have sensible or often even coherent motivations for anything that they do.

The keystone figure that unleashes the entire storyline comes off in every scene you have from his perspective as a confused, blundering idiot who's constantly torn between doing one thing or doing another thing, making it feel totally unbelieavable that this guy could've continued doing what he has been doing for as long as he has. And where the goals of the antagonist(s) in PS:T make perfect sense (he just wants to live), the changing god's goals (which are not just living) are at times stupid almost beyond belief.

The second major antagonist, the sorrow, utterly fails to even put on a show of justifying its own existence, relying entirely on shallow anedcotes and spacious reasoning to justify the horrible atrocities it has enacted in the name of... something something, it's not really explained why what it's trying to stop it worse than a countless number of far more horrible things people do right out there in the open without the universe needing to manifest a literal god to stop them from doing it. The character may as well have carried a huge banner around with it that said in glowing, blinking neon letters: "THE AUTHOR NEEDS ME TO EXIST TO PROVIDE YOU WITH AN OBSTACLE".

And the final antagonist comes off as a clueless weakling who's mere moments away from simply killing themselves in their own stupidity before you show up to do it for them.

Then there are companions, which are just terrible. Where PS:T has amazing companions whose motivations feel sincere (Morte alone, once you finally know his full story and see that he isn't just a comic relief but as deeply tortured as anyone else in the game, is one of the best player companions in any game ever), T:ToN's companions rarely even manage to give a compelling reason for why they follow the final castoff around at all - to face almost certain death at the hands of the sorrow or the bloom or the changing god or any number of other unspeakable horrors at his side. They feel like they just follow you around because the game needs to have companions that follow you around. Add that to the way the first two are shoved right in your face it feels almost offensive in how shameless it is.

To add insult to that offense, some of them will even abandon you for utter trivialities, as if one moment ago they were able to tolerate the horrors they suffer at the side of you castoff body with its inherent associations to your disgusting leige, then the next some minor slight against their morality will suddenly cause them to abandon their entire life's goals to instead og sulk in a slum or something equally ridiculous. You even have a character like Rhin, which is perhaps the most shameless embodiment of the "predictable and stupid" trope that PS:T's mission statement stood in rejection of that has been put to text in years.

Then you have what should be cardinal offenses, like dialogue trees that exist just to be exhausted, where you don't click on dialogue options because you're interested in talking to a character about what that text says, but because the game's dialogue is so poorly set up you know you have to click all the options before the game allows you to do the thing that you want to do. A thing that shouldn't logically - in context of the characters conversing with each other having a conversation - have follow from exhausting those dialogue options, but because the game thinks that the player is an idiot it refuses to let us choose any dialoge choices that we haven't asked to have explained to us whether we're allowed to choose or not. It's so unnecessary it's, again... it's offensive.

Like in the final conversation. There's an extremely obvious choice to make in that dialogue that players can easily miss being able to do, not because at any point in that exchange does it not make sense for the character to be able to do that, but because the player will not have asked THE POINTLESS RHETORICAL QUESTIONS necessary for the dialogue option to unlock. It is INCREIDBLY badly written. Just shameful. I could not believe people were paid money to write a scene that ended up so poorly executed. Maybe if it were some heavily combat-focused game and conversation was kind of half of the game and you were at the end of a 50 hour compaign or something, sure, I get it, it can be forgiven. But this is THE FINAL CONCLUSION to a VERY SHORT, ENTIRELY DIALOGUE FOCUSED GAME. You're fucking up the most important part of your game! That's not even touching upon all the other parts of that dialogue that was poorly written, such as the atrociously ambiguous descriptions of some of it that made it very unclear what choosing some options would actually do. Whoever wrote that should be ashamed. This is your JOB. You are incompetent!

It's not just unforgivable to my eyes, but in fact it stands in representation of the entire game. Where PS:T feels like... like the vision of someone who really knew what they wanted put together as well as they were able to do so, everything in T:ToN feels like it was the product of someone trying to put together what they thought someone else wanted, but not actually knowing how to do that. It's a shallow simulacrum robbed of the talent and passion that made its namesake good.

I could easily expand another 20,000+ words upon all the stuff that's awful about the game in excruciating detail. Yeah, this is harsh, and while the game did have some positive parts - few things are ever total shit - those few good parts do not even remotely begin to compensate for all the absolutely terrible parts. The pointless combat system, which really is A BIG DEAL in a GAME. PS:T's combat wasn't good, but T:ToN's is disgusting.

Then there's the small world with its tiny, cramped areas with near-MMO-level shamelessly obvious quest hubs and quest NPCs all situated within pissing distance of each other and makes everything FEEL artificial. Yeah, we know, it IS artificial, but it shouldn't FEEL that way. This is just terrible design. And the inventory and equipment system so anemic it's hard to believe it exists as anything but a vestige. The bland and uninspired character models so terrible that PS:T's decades old sprites look positively radiant by comparison. The pointless tide system that nobody would notice if was removed. The shallow classes and other character fluff. The terrible skillchecks that may as well not even exist by 'virtue' of how easy they were. The Choose Your Own Adventure-sections that jank you right out of the game so jarring and terrible that they're hard to see justified even as resource-saving efforts. The total absence of any kind of storytelling THROUGH THE GAME ITSELF; where are the in-game cutscenes, like those we got plenty of in PS:T, quaint though they were? Where are the videos that give flavour to the world?

The list goes on and on and on and on and on...

It is a terrible game that doesn't deserve to share association with it and should be forgotten by history.

Just like the inane rantings of this disappointed fan hopefully will be alongside it. I had to get this off my chest before I went to bed so it wouldn't keep me up for hours. Good night.

 

[Gepeu]

68%? It's time for Steam to intoroduce new, better, more objective and fair user score that's being planned and approved by an every game's publisher. Nobody believes this troll bombed user score anyway, so why not set it a few days after each release?

 

[HoboForEternity]

I'm enjoying the game despite it's faults. It's entertaining and that's all that really matters at the end of the day.

same. I mea. I have low ish expectation before and statisfaction is is reality minus expectation and the reality is quite better than my expectation.

It is an ok game with some brilliant parts, and some bad parts.

In the end of the day i dont regret playing or purchasing but i wont play it again anytime soon until major changes are patched

 

[Wilco]

Been playing it when I can and enjoying it so far. My expectations for these games are never high these days anyway.

Somewhat glad it's just a narrative heavy game because I haven't had the time to play stat heavy RPGs with complex character systems lately...

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

Ok turns out I can play this on my girlfriends laptop with a decent framerate. Still, the whole experience feels kinda sluggish, so I decided to put this off for a while and replay...the original PS:T instead after 15 years or so.
Maybe they'll manage to optimize the game and restore some of the cut content with patches until I have a new computer and monitor.
I'm pretty certain the game will be somewhat dissapointing compared to PS:T but still decent enough. Half of you assclowns keep bitching about the graphics and the music, both seem perfectly fine based on the first 1-2 hours of play.

 

[Lord Andre]

Every time I play this game for a couple of hours, I get a powerful craving for fried chicken and grape soda. Can immersion go to far ?

 

[Lilura]

From a CRPG perspective tranny is a better game.

Which says a lot.

 

[Jools]

BTW, my google-fu is shit. Anyone knows when is the next major patch due?

 

[Luckmann]

Beat the game today as a story fag game this games okay if you a BIG story fag. From a CRPG perspective tranny is a better game. I wouldn't recommend playing it.

As a storyfag, I'm afraid I must inform you that you're wrong and also homosexual.

 

[Gunnar]

I'm enjoying the game despite it's faults. It's entertaining and that's all that really matters at the end of the day.

same. I mea. I have low ish expectation before and statisfaction is is reality minus expectation and the reality is quite better than my expectation.

It is an ok game with some brilliant parts, and some bad parts.

In the end of the day i dont regret playing or purchasing but i wont play it again anytime soon until major changes are patched

I didn't follow the development of it so I'm not bothered by the disparity in some of the early screenshots and the final product, and I'd much rather they cut promised stretchgoals than leave them in and do a shitty job, which is what Obsidian did.

Like any game, including PST, it has good parts and bad parts. Hundreds of pages of autistic nerd rage, bandwagon haters who either didn't play the game or sprinted through it / don't like story games, and an extremely shitty hit job of a 'review' by PJ of all people does not reflect well on the codex at all. That review especially is embarrassing and makes the site look like somebodies shitty blog and should be scrubbed immediately until someone competent can write one up.

 

[hexer]

Greeks definitively aren't impressed

http://thegeeksociety.gr/torment-tides-of-numenera-review-en/

 

[Lurker King]

We need moar greeks on the Dex.

 

[Lilura]

just do not expect something as impressive as Baldur's Gate, Planescape: Torment or Witcher 3.

Lumping Twitcher 3 in with two great Infinity Engine games. Disgusting!

 

[Luckmann]

Greeks definitively aren't impressed

http://thegeeksociety.gr/torment-tides-of-numenera-review-en/

I can only assume that they are all members of Golden Dawn, because they're clearly based.

 

[undecaf]

just do not expect something as impressive as Baldur's Gate, Planescape: Torment or Witcher 3.

Lumping Twitcher 3 in with two great Infinity Engine games. Disgusting!

Mentioning it at all...

 

[Fairfax]

Panel with MCA, George Ziets, Leanne Taylor-Giles, Colin McComb, Gavin Jurgens-Fyhrie:

http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1024206/Everything-s-on-Fire-and

Everything's on Fire and No One Knows What to Do is about developing a common knowledge base for game writers, narrative designers, and cross-discipline communication. This panel focuses on the day-to-day aspects of game writing and working within a team, namely problem-solving, clear communication, and uncovering constraints after all the dialogue has already been recorded. Five industry experts share their experiences working on everything from AAA to indie and tabletop, discuss their strategies for remaining creative on varying budgets, and define common terms that may just result in you not needing to set everything on fire after all.

 

[Cromwell]

Panel with MCA, George Ziets, Leanne Taylor-Giles, Colin McComb, Gavin Jurgens-Fyhrie:

http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1024206/Everything-s-on-Fire-and

Everything's on Fire and No One Knows What to Do is about developing a common knowledge base for game writers, narrative designers, and cross-discipline communication. This panel focuses on the day-to-day aspects of game writing and working within a team, namely problem-solving, clear communication, and uncovering constraints after all the dialogue has already been recorded. Five industry experts share their experiences working on everything from AAA to indie and tabletop, discuss their strategies for remaining creative on varying budgets, and define common terms that may just result in you not needing to set everything on fire after all.

One would assume that in Order to hold panels about good game writing and narrative design there would be actually games with good writing and narrative design that aren't a gazillion years old

 

[Sentinel]

Panel with MCA, George Ziets, Leanne Taylor-Giles, Colin McComb, Gavin Jurgens-Fyhrie:

http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1024206/Everything-s-on-Fire-and

Everything's on Fire and No One Knows What to Do is about developing a common knowledge base for game writers, narrative designers, and cross-discipline communication. This panel focuses on the day-to-day aspects of game writing and working within a team, namely problem-solving, clear communication, and uncovering constraints after all the dialogue has already been recorded. Five industry experts share their experiences working on everything from AAA to indie and tabletop, discuss their strategies for remaining creative on varying budgets, and define common terms that may just result in you not needing to set everything on fire after all.

Colin McComb looking for a job at the end. Did Torment flop that badly?

PS: Nevermind this was before the launch. Got excited for a moment there

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Panel with MCA, George Ziets, Leanne Taylor-Giles, Colin McComb, Gavin Jurgens-Fyhrie:

http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1024206/Everything-s-on-Fire-and

Everything's on Fire and No One Knows What to Do is about developing a common knowledge base for game writers, narrative designers, and cross-discipline communication. This panel focuses on the day-to-day aspects of game writing and working within a team, namely problem-solving, clear communication, and uncovering constraints after all the dialogue has already been recorded. Five industry experts share their experiences working on everything from AAA to indie and tabletop, discuss their strategies for remaining creative on varying budgets, and define common terms that may just result in you not needing to set everything on fire after all.

Colin McComb looking for a job at the end. Did Torment flop that badly?

PS: Nevermind this was before the launch. Got excited for a moment there

Well, Gavin is going to be lead for WL3...maybe therre's a reason.

 

[Lurker King]

Panel with MCA, George Ziets, Leanne Taylor-Giles, Colin McComb, Gavin Jurgens-Fyhrie:

http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1024206/Everything-s-on-Fire-and

Everything's on Fire and No One Knows What to Do is about developing a common knowledge base for game writers, narrative designers, and cross-discipline communication. This panel focuses on the day-to-day aspects of game writing and working within a team, namely problem-solving, clear communication, and uncovering constraints after all the dialogue has already been recorded. Five industry experts share their experiences working on everything from AAA to indie and tabletop, discuss their strategies for remaining creative on varying budgets, and define common terms that may just result in you not needing to set everything on fire after all.

So a team of experts, including the ones responsible for the T:ToN fiasco, is trying to teach everyone else how to do games? Thanks, but no thanks.

 

[MRY]

If you are only looking for narratives in cRPGs, you will stopped liking cRPGs. I understand you may have no time, but if you dive in the mechanics, your whole appreciation of the genre will improve significantly. Even if you have no interest in killing things, the complexity of the system is a reward in its own right. Mastering an interesting combat system is like learning a new kind of chess. It’s beautiful.

I think it depends what you mean "only looking for narratives." I'm not "only looking for narratives" in the sense of being primarily interested in RPGs as literary works. IMO, from a literary standpoint, PS:T probably sits somewhere in the top 15% of mass market fantasy, not even close to the masterworks of fantasy which are themselves generally not the highest form of literature. And most RPGs [edit: with good stories] are somewhere around the level of a good cartoon, say, between Pirates of Darkwater and Batman the Animated Series. It would be profoundly silly to play them "for the narrative." But to play them for the narrative control is something else, and it's one reason why AOD fascinates me.

To me, the most rewarding part of role-playing games is making significant choices. I tend to get bored fairly quickly with extremely complex game systems in which "hacking" the system is the goal -- for example, I've always liked Warlords and Master of Orion more than Heroes of Might and Magic and Civilization because those games tend to involve broad-level decisions rather than low-level logistical investments. I do find resource management interesting, but more in terms of the hard choices than in terms of the minmaxing. I have enough complexity to deal with in ordinary life, I suppose, and find there to be relatively low rewards for making that kind of investment in games.

I do like chess, though I'm not very good at it, but my enjoyment of it is in any event tightly connected to the social and historical aspects of the game: you are playing it with someone and by playing it, you are linking yourself to this great chain of human endeavor. Being very good at AOD's combat has none of that reward, though it may have other rewards that matter a lot to other people, and I certainly don't begrudge them that.