Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Thread

[Metal Hurlant]

Oh, all the things you do to be an apologist for inXile and this stinking shit pile of a game.

Talking about apologists. I just went to the Obsidian forum and saw these beauties:

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/91936-torment-tides-of-numenera-released/?p=1895725

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/91936-torment-tides-of-numenera-released/?p=1895729

 

[Kaspar Hauser]

Wait, the Kingkiller Chronicle author wrote for Numenera?

How in shit did this game fail with all the talent on the project?

nice to have you back, buzz

 

[Wulfstand]

I've been pouring a few more hours into the game and am currently sitting on 17 points of intellect. My question is: where are all the intelligent dialogue options? Am I missing something? That was by far one of my favorite parts about PS:T (and Arcanum), how I could genuinely have more interesting dialogues with the right stats.

Am I right to assume that here, 17 points of intellect means I can pour more points into my Persuasion/Intimidation/etc checks, while still only being limited to 'What's a Paladin?' types of dialogue?

 

[Jarpie]

[...] Maybe even force people to do your bidding with them in a social context. Forcing the apparition to appear in the Labyrinth feels like that and may have had a tide requirement for you to do it.

Yes, you can do this, from time to time. It's not just in the Labyrinth.

Spoiler

It can be used for getting the alien-digger-people's eggs, purge an alien in the psychic bar from his doubts, and to get another alien to tell him why he's asking questions in the Circus Minor, for example.

I suspect the idea in this case was to have you affect them differently depending on your Tides, but there appears to be no difference; you just get major boosts in different tides, depending on who you use it on. I suspect that the idea (both for combat and for dialogues) was that if you were attuned to Gold, the outcome would be different from if you, say, were attuned to Red. It's also interesting to note that the game mentions that you may affect different characters differently or get extra options depending on your tides, but so far, I've noticed nothing of the sort. This description is consistent with how the Tides are described as being intended to be used in the Explorer's Guide supplement for the PnP, but there appears to be no actual implementation of it in Tides of Numenera.

Since we're on this topic anyway, I feel that I must also mention that how Tides are awarded in Tides of Numenera is completely different from how it's described in the PnP supplement. Tides of Numenera hands modifiers out for literally just asking questions, but that's pretty much opposite of intended implementation. This suggests that something changed drastically (for the worse) between the time of which the book was published and the game released, keeping in mind that these things were intended to complement eachother (to the point where Speaks with a Silver Tongue and Breathes Shadow are Foci that were created for the supplement based on the game or vice versa, for example).

I keep reloading because of various reasons.

Yeah, it turns out that a poorly written game has issues with how things play out based on the relative difference of meaning that can be inferred in single sentences. Absolutely haram.

Even if they would've implemented that the tides would affect the dialogue/quests wouldn't help the game much due the very mundane quests, unless all the better quests were left on the cutting room floor. They had chance to do something new and more experimental given the setting but no, they chose to make yet another "Plz find teh killer" (which is probably in every fucking rpg), plz halp useless twat, etc.

 

[AwesomeButton]

There are a few Youtubers doing PTs, colonel RPG for example.

I would actually pay monies for a fully narrated PT by Wayne June.

And you can watch Pat Rothfuss playing TTON (he wrote Rhin)

http://www.twitch.tv/patrickrothfuss/v/125536659?sr=a&t=5s

OMG, he actually enjoys the loredumps?!

Taking credit for Otero, the "I'll explain everything to you through dialogue, no need to go and actually explore" NPC is like taking credit for inventing the gas chambers at a hanukkah celebration. I stopped watching shortly afterwards.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Fulsom's quest with murders. I can name any name, but have no proof for any of the 3 suspects.

A question about the Circles in Red quest:
The only one I'm certain is not the killer is Mallet. The other two are shifty, but none of them give enough evidence to suggest either of them.

The effort to which the game goes to plaster the "right" conclusion to that quest all over your face is nothing short of insulting. I don't know how big of a cretin one would have to be to accuse the wrong culprit here when it's just spelled out to you at nearly every step.

well then

 

[Commissar Draco]

First Impression of game: I play as brown skinned Gypsy.
2nd one: game is buggy even fracking save games did not worked at start
3rd Dialogues and story are decent so far, just don't take mind scan cause it will spoil 50% of game for you on your first run. So the Game is not as good as I Commissar thought it will be 4 years ago but not as shit as some here claimed.... will give it a few hours before hitting the refund button on this one anyway.

Who should I take to RP as Fist Diplomacy, collar grabbing Renegade Comrades? Cause I do have suspicion I will be railroaded to RP as librul cuck otherwise. And if there are some cool chain swords and Lazors to justify play-through as Glaive? Is Combat in this game any good or should I just take Nano as get thru this as CHYOA with cool graphics?

 

[Luckmann]

Even if they would've implemented that the tides would affect the dialogue/quests wouldn't help the game much due the very mundane quests, unless all the better quests were left on the cutting room floor. They had chance to do something new and more experimental given the setting but no, they chose to make yet another "Plz find teh killer" (which is probably in every fucking rpg), plz halp useless twat, etc.

Well, yeah, I mean, most of my comments and critique are by themselves not game-shattering, nor would fixing any single one of them completely redeem the game. The issues with Tides of Numenera are many and varied, from the significant content cuts to the general approach to how the story is being told, and from the insane content density to the supremely poor flow of combat.

It's all these things taken together that makes the overall experience rather poor, rather than just having some aspects that are bad. And I maintain that that's a real shame, because the game comes very close to truly being amazing. But to actually fix it, significant alterations to the flow of the narrative, the mechanics of the game, and the addition of substantial content would have to be made, and while some retards thinks that "Directors Cut will fix it", apparently the new go-to excuse in contexts where "mods will fix it" cannot possibly apply, I just don't see that happening. We're talking months of work for a full team, most likely.

Sadly, I think that Tides of Numenera will never attain the glory that it came so close to achieving. The game is a weak 6/10, but it could've quite easily been a 8/10 or even a 9/10. I'm still convinced that it could've been as good as Planescape: Torment. It really could've been.

If nothing else comes out of this, I think that Tides of Numenera can be a good example of what not to do when trying to make a Torment-like game. By examining what went wrong with Tides of Numenera, a spiritual sequel to Torment can become a very real possibility through a relatively simple iterative progress as part of an evolutionary approach. I can always hope, I guess? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Quillon]

just don't take mind scan cause it will spoil 50% of game for you on your first run.

Huh, looked up & its exclusive to nanos... whaaaaaaaaat? As if playing a mage is so unpopular & needs further perks somehow. Fuck this shit. Whole levelling up is clustershit but how is this not a universal ability....

 

[Luckmann]

[...]

Who should I take to RP as Fist Diplomacy, collar grabbing Renegade Comrades? Cause I do have suspicion I will be railroaded to RP as librul cuck otherwise. And if there are some cool chain swords and Lazors to justify play-through as Glaive? Is Combat in this game any good or should I just take Nano as get thru this as CHYOA with cool graphics?

The combat is awful and weapons are scarce. I think a good case could be made for a ranged speed Jack, because it'd allow you to go crazy with the Intimidations and shit, and later on in the game (after leaving Sagus) there's some (expensive) ranged weapons that I'm pretty sure would be amazing. There's not really any cool chain-swords or lazors that I've found so far, but Glaives can absolutely melt faces, and if you want to go the asskicking route, there will be quite a few minor fights. My recommendation would be to go for Speed, however, because I simply haven't found any good Might-based weapons, me having initially wanting to make one of the CNPC:s a Might-based combatant.

Since you're not going Scan Thoughts, don't go Nano, since you'll probably do that anyway if you ever replay the game. Honestly, going an ass-kicking asshole of a Glaive is probably pretty fun, but you will miss out on a lot of content and progression will be faster, and the experience will probably be pretty significantly different, so that's more or less actually my plan if I ever replay. But yeah, the combat is awful. Simply awful and awkward and mostly avoidable to the point where it becomes almost forced how easily avoided it is, and hard to justify fighting under most circumstances without breaking character - unless you're actually playing someone that wants to fight at every turn, which isn't.. sane.

just don't take mind scan cause it will spoil 50% of game for you on your first run.

Huh, looked up & its exclusive to nanos... whaaaaaaaaat? As if playing a mage is so unpopular & needs further perks somehow. Fuck this shit. Whole levelling up is clustershit but how is this not a universal ability....

Yeah, from a "see everything" perspective, Nanos are fucking broken. Not only do Nanos get Scan Thoughts, but they also benefit the most (overwhelmingly so) from Intellect, and there's just about four times more Intellect-based checks in the game than there are Might- or Speed-related ones. The number of Smashing tests are abysmal, and the number of Quick Fingers tests are likewise very low; and either of them can be handled by party members.

Meanwhile, only the main character can make observations in dialogues and choose answers (obviously), so there's already a natural disparity.

Additionally, Nanos can get an ability that gives a passive +1 to Mystical, Mechanical and Natural Lore at Tier 2, which unlocks even more observations in conversations, and since they excel as skillmonkeys and don't really need the bonuses to Intimidation/Persuasion/Deception (because they have such high Intellect anyway, and almost all of those checks are Intellect), they easily grab Perception to... further unlocking dialogue observations and actions.

Edit: Just to be clear, I think it'd be a shit thing to make Scan Thoughts non-exclusive to Nanos - but the game could absolutely use more Might- and Speed-related checks, as well as more Smashing and Quick Fingers tests that are unlocked in dialogues by having those skills, in the same way options are unlocked by having Perception and/or Scan Thoughts. The disparity is simply enormous.

I want Might-dependent Quick Fingers tests to break the arms of people in dialogues, that are only revealed if you've actually got the skill(s), dammit.

 

[Lacrymas]

well then

Finding out who the killer is is moon logic.

Spoiler

The only sign the cannibal alien gives you that doesn't point to her is that she says she won't leave a perfectly good arm. She might be lying. Everything else points to her - her complete consumption of the corpses and she is the only one who has seen the circle. Sure, she doesn't have a motive, but the only one who does is obviously not the killer (Mallet). There is almost NOTHING to suggest the other chick. They tell you she has eaten alone, that doesn't mean she's a murderer. In the end I picked her because I thought she had become impatient on her quest to find her "father", but it turns out that random corpse she ate is a member of a cannibal murderers organization, who aren't even in the city, and got 'infected' with their 'disease'. I.e. she isn't even liable, because her disease made her do it. Even with the blackouts she experiences, she flees before Fulsome's men can catch her, so she knows she did it, which means there wasn't even a blackout involved.

Seriously, no, the game doesn't give you any coherent evidence, it's simply moon logic.

 

[Darth Roxor]

You say it's moon logic without coherent evidence. Meanwhile I didn't have to spend even 5 minutes on thinking who it could have been. Fuck, I even ran around the city looking if there was anything I could have missed because I thought the way the answer was handed to me on a silver platter like that was suspiciously convenient and maybe a red herring. It wasn't. Everything points to the woman and nothing to the other two.

 

[Jarpie]

Even if they would've implemented that the tides would affect the dialogue/quests wouldn't help the game much due the very mundane quests, unless all the better quests were left on the cutting room floor. They had chance to do something new and more experimental given the setting but no, they chose to make yet another "Plz find teh killer" (which is probably in every fucking rpg), plz halp useless twat, etc.

Well, yeah, I mean, most of my comments and critique are by themselves not game-shattering, nor would fixing any single one of them completely redeem the game. The issues with Tides of Numenera are many and varied, from the significant content cuts to the general approach to how the story is being told, and from the insane content density to the supremely poor flow of combat.

It's all these things taken together that makes the overall experience rather poor, rather than just having some aspects that are bad. And I maintain that that's a real shame, because the game comes very close to truly being amazing. But to actually fix it, significant alterations to the flow of the narrative, the mechanics of the game, and the addition of substantial content would have to be made, and while some retards thinks that "Directors Cut will fix it", apparently the new go-to excuse in contexts where "mods will fix it" cannot possibly apply, I just don't see that happening. We're talking months of work for a full team, most likely.

Sadly, I think that Tides of Numenera will never attain the glory that it came so close to achieving. The game is a weak 6/10, but it could've quite easily been a 8/10 or even a 9/10. I'm still convinced that it could've been as good as Planescape: Torment. It really could've been.

If nothing else comes out of this, I think that Tides of Numenera can be a good example of what not to do when trying to make a Torment-like game. By examining what went wrong with Tides of Numenera, a spiritual sequel to Torment can become a very real possibility through a relatively simple iterative progress as part of an evolutionary approach. I can always hope, I guess? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yeah, especially the narrative flow of the mainstory so far has been utterly confounding. You can basically get through it very fucking quickly in Sagus Cliffs and it makes me wonder how much they actually cut out of it, and the game feels like a lot. I suspect it started as lot more complicated and more mysterious and shit, but midway through the development they scrapped it and threw the final game together in less than two years, because there's no way they've worked on this since 2012-2013, or even 2014. I wonder though how early or late they cut out Oasis.

 

[Lacrymas]

You say it's moon logic without coherent evidence. Meanwhile I didn't have to spend even 5 minutes on thinking who it could have been. Fuck, I even ran around the city looking if there was anything I could have missed because I thought the way the answer was handed to me on a silver platter like that was suspiciously convenient and maybe a red herring. It wasn't. Everything points to the woman and nothing to the other two.

The cannibal alien even says she doesn't consider this to be a murder! There is simply no evidence to suggest the real murderer.

 

[Luckmann]

moon logic

muh evidence

I dunno, I have to agree with Roxor here. It's fairly obvious who did it, just listening to the conversations and studying the characters. That being said, no, there are no hard evidence, but that's actually a good thing, I think, because in quests of this type, I think that it's often far too easy to work your way to the hard evidence and then just make the accusation, presto, done. And that's extremely boring. I think that that quest is actually fairly well-written, but lacks an emphasis on clarifying that you don't have any hard evidence, but that hard evidence isn't necessary in this case, because we're operating on feudal assumptions in what amounts to a criminal underworld context, so what you say, your interpretation, is what matters, not whether you've got DNA evidence or not.

But I absolutely think that the correct answer is fairly evident, partly because the other two are "too obvious", and are very straight-forward in their dodgy dishonesty, and very honest with the fact that they're shitty people. Moon logic? Maybe. You certainly cannot reduce this to pure logic, but with some narrative/game familiarity and provided you can read characters and social contexts (also known as not being a raging autist), it's fairly evident who the killer is, once you've exhausted all options. It would've been a far more interesting plot-twist if one of the more obvious bad guys turned out to actually be the bad guy. We've reached a level of post-post-irony in the age of cultural hipsterism where it's practically impossible to expect anyone but the not-villain to be villainous.

I would've had her run off if you actually leave the Dendra O'Hur to ask Fulsom if the alibi of the cult leader is actually legit (that he spent time with Fulsom), auto-pinning the blame on her, concluding the quest, but if you actually keep digging or when you catch up with her, reveal that it was one of the other two actual-assholes, possibly for completely unrelated reasons. Or something along those lines. I think that the quest as-is is too predictable and one-dimensional, especially as a quest connected to a would-be major arch/confrontation that comes later (which is tragically mishandled as well, but that's a separate issue).

 

[Lacrymas]

Yeah, sure, there is no hard evidence, but there is no motive either. It turns out there really isn't a motive. Just accusing people of murder because they don't look murderous is backwards. Not to mention that one of the stories checks out, so it doesn't matter if that individual looks murderous.

 

[Father Foreskin]

Here is my review of the game, i hope it gets on the front page.

Tl:dr 6/10 Fuck Fargo.

 

[Luckmann]

Yeah, especially the narrative flow of the mainstory so far has been utterly confounding. You can basically get through it very fucking quickly in Sagus Cliffs and it makes me wonder how much they actually cut out of it, and the game feels like a lot. I suspect it started as lot more complicated and more mysterious and shit, but midway through the development they scrapped it and threw the final game together in less than two years, because there's no way they've worked on this since 2012-2013, or even 2014. I wonder though how early or late they cut out Oasis.

I think that very little was done on The Oasis. I think that Sagus Cliffs was intended to be larger than it is today, and as they were working on Sagus Cliffs and The Bloom, they realized that it was simply impossible to do the same with The Oasis of M'Ra Jolios/Jerboa, so they scaled back Sagus Cliffs, scrapped both The Oasis and Jerboa, and possibly expanded upon The Bloom a little bit to make it comparable to Sagus Cliffs in size.

My only "evidence" of this is the fact that The Oasis was pitched very early as the second city, and in most contexts, The Bloom was more of a side area, and in the material for the PnP, which details much of the background and content of the setting surrounding the game in the context of Numenera as a wider setting, Sagus Cliffs is bigger than it is in the game, and The Bloom is basically a satellite community/region directly relating to Sagus Cliffs, while M'Ra Jolios and Jerboa had a similar relationship of Jerboa being a satellite community/region directly relating to M'Ra Jolios (or possibly vice-versa). See maps (in spoiler) and links here for reference.

Yeah, sure, there is no hard evidence, but there is no motive either. It turns out there really isn't a motive.

Which makes the whole thing even weirder, honestly. It's just very sloppy writing. I pointed out earlier how odd it is that this cult was driven out of Sagus Cliffs decades (or was it even centuries?) ago, and how the Dendra O'Hur already appears to be a relatively minor sect, but then suddenly there's an army and a half of Endless Gate cultists in the very next section of the game (however short that section is). That the murderer-woman became a cultist because she ate someone that was, proceeded to kill and eat someone, leave a hand, and then draw the cult's symbol there as a message, just to then flee to the Cult is all very odd. It's all very irrational, but she doesn't come off as feral at all, but rather rational, both at first and later.

I get the feeling that the cult encroaching on Sagus Cliffs was supposed to have a much bigger story arch, involving the corruption of members of the Dendra O'Hur, digging more into the motivations at play, but that it was all scrapped, making her immediately flee to join a cult she's apparently never interacted with before, yet felt compelled to not only practice their murder-eating habits, but also their rituals and locations. I liked the quest itself, but in a wider context, it's actually pretty unhinged and disjointed.

 

[Iznaliu]

Here is my review of the game, i hope it gets on the front page.

Tl:dr 6/10 Fuck Fargo.

Here is my review of your review, I hope it gets on the front page.

Tl:dr 6/10 Fuck Father Foreskin.

 

[FeelTheRads]

P.S. retroactively rating my other posts as retarded tells more about your intelligence and attitude than it does about the content of my message. If you want to avoid getting negative ratings from me, you should stop posting stupid shit and having shitty opinions. Cheers.

What's retarded is you thinking that your opinion or tastes are somehow better than anyone else's. I'm certainly not the only one who thought the mortuary wasn't that great.

Yeah, but it's typically dumbfucks who think so.

Case in point:

Took me 4 attempts until I managed to get out of mortuary before getting bored out of my ass. Never would have if people wouldn't keep pestering me that the game is amazing.

Also the mortuary is perfectly suitable in tone and in gameplay with the rest of the game. You're just a dumbfuck.

And if you think me rating one of your posts is somehow proof of anything, you haven't seen anything:

Stop crying about that. I remember clearly when I butthurt you so much at some point that you went into a rating frenzy going through my post history to rate "retarded" left and right.

 

[Jarpie]

Yeah, especially the narrative flow of the mainstory so far has been utterly confounding. You can basically get through it very fucking quickly in Sagus Cliffs and it makes me wonder how much they actually cut out of it, and the game feels like a lot. I suspect it started as lot more complicated and more mysterious and shit, but midway through the development they scrapped it and threw the final game together in less than two years, because there's no way they've worked on this since 2012-2013, or even 2014. I wonder though how early or late they cut out Oasis.

I think that very little was done on The Oasis. I think that Sagus Cliffs was intended to be larger than it is today, and as they were working on Sagus Cliffs and The Bloom, they realized that it was simply impossible to do the same with The Oasis of M'Ra Jolios/Jerboa, so they scaled back Sagus Cliffs, scrapped both The Oasis and Jerboa, and possibly expanded upon The Bloom a little bit to make it comparable to Sagus Cliffs in size.

My only "evidence" of this is the fact that The Oasis was pitched very early as the second city, and in most contexts, The Bloom was more of a side area, and in the material for the PnP, which details much of the background and content of the setting surrounding the game in the context of Numenera as a wider setting, Sagus Cliffs is bigger than it is in the game, and The Bloom is basically a satellite community/region directly relating to Sagus Cliffs, while M'Ra Jolios and Jerboa had a similar relationship of Jerboa being a satellite community/region directly relating to M'Ra Jolios (or possibly vice-versa). See maps (in spoiler) and links here for reference.

What's curious is that they apparently showed Oasis in trailer or gameplay video/teaser last year, might've even been in the fall, so either they used the areas they had built and abandoned long time ago, or they cut the final remnants of it very late in the development. So either they tried string the audience along and keep them in the dark about the cuts, or they tried to keep it around, even in a very minor capacity till the last minute. It's a shame that we'll probably never hear what really went on during the development unless someone talks, which I can't sadly see happening.

Yeah, sure, there is no hard evidence, but there is no motive either. It turns out there really isn't a motive.

Which makes the whole thing even weirder, honestly. It's just very sloppy writing. I pointed out earlier how odd it is that this cult was driven out of Sagus Cliffs decades (or was it even centuries?) ago, and how the Dendra O'Hur already appears to be a relatively minor sect, but then suddenly there's an army and a half of Endless Gate cultists in the very next section of the game (however short that section is). That the murderer-woman became a cultist because she ate someone that was, proceeded to kill and eat someone, leave a hand, and then draw the cult's symbol there as a message, just to then flee to the Cult is all very odd. It's all very irrational, but she doesn't come off as feral at all, but rather rational, both at first and later.

I get the feeling that the cult encroaching on Sagus Cliffs was supposed to have a much bigger story arch, involving the corruption of members of the Dendra O'Hur, digging more into the motivations at play, but that it was all scrapped, making her immediately flee to join a cult she's apparently never interacted with before, yet felt compelled to not only practice their murder-eating habits, but also their rituals and locations. I liked the quest itself, but in a wider context, it's actually pretty unhinged and disjointed.

I got that impression too, same from the two other cults; Cult of the Changing God and Order of Truth. There'd be so much they could do with those both, especially as you are playing as one of the castoffs and make them believe you are the changing god...god that's so frustating (pun intended) as the player because it would give so many fucking possibilities from the gameplay and story possibilities. It hardly even comes into the play that you are castoff, let alone that you can convince people you are a fucking -changing god-. Bllrhhghghga.

 

[Lacrymas]

I suppose that Sagus Cliffs' arc was supposed to revolve around the cults. As it stands now, it doesn't have an overarching story, or any story at all, it's just random vignettes that don't matter. You can leave the moment you find Matkina (I'm not sure though, because I didn't try it, that machine atop the Cave of Last Words says it can transport you to Miel Avest, so I just assume you can leave). Numanuma looks like a mangled corpse.

 

[Lurker King]

Now that I mentioned slavery, how does THAT make sense in this setting? I can accuse Rhin's slaver of being evil, yet slavery is legal?

Yeah, that pissed me off to no end. There's no way to treat it as natural and perfectly OK, even though it appears to be a widely accepted practice. And what's worse, even the others - including the fucking slavers themselves - recognize it as a reprehensible practice.

:incloosive:

 

[Luckmann]

I suppose that Sagus Cliffs' arc was supposed to revolve around the cults. As it stands now, it doesn't have an overarching story, or any story at all, it's just random vignettes that don't matter. You can leave the moment you find Matkina (I'm not sure though, because I didn't try it, that machine atop the Cave of Last Words says it can transport you to Miel Avest, so I just assume you can leave). Numanuma looks like a mangled corpse.

Spoiler

The teleporter does not work. I think you also need to resolve the matter of Erritis having fucked the Airship Captain, but that's extremely short, so yeah, you can pretty much leave as soon as you've found Matkina. You technically do not even need to go to all the areas of Sagus Cliffs - you could theoretically avoid going to the Gubermint District.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Hey, it's an evil necessity, maybe. They don't have to like being slavers.

Anyway, probably didn't pay enough attention, but is it specified that it's a widely accepted practice?