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Warhammer Total War: Warhammer 2

Delterius

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played balthasar gelt

spent 40 turns in my starter province because of multiple stacks from von carstein, 2 orc tribes and a skaven clan to my east

ok
 

Delterius

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played balthasar gelt

spent 40 turns in my starter province because of multiple stacks from von carstein, 2 orc tribes and a skaven clan to my east

ok

Isn't Golden Order considered to be a hard start? If so, you were warned :P
Have you tried baiting the enemy into an ambush to destroy their stacks and rush their settlements?
definitely, rivers and making huge squares with my shitty pikemen are my best friends, i eventually regrouped after retreat and managed to pursuing army

but ffs balthasar is considered 'normal'
 

kris

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played balthasar gelt

spent 40 turns in my starter province because of multiple stacks from von carstein, 2 orc tribes and a skaven clan to my east

ok

Isn't Golden Order considered to be a hard start? If so, you were warned :P
Have you tried baiting the enemy into an ambush to destroy their stacks and rush their settlements?
definitely, rivers and making huge squares with my shitty pikemen are my best friends, i eventually regrouped after retreat and managed to pursuing army

but ffs balthasar is considered 'normal'

You need handgunners against vampires, they eat up their "monsters" and they always got line of sight to monsters.
 

Kabas

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Can confirm the usefulness of hangunners against the monsters, they were the key in removing Skarsnik early.
Fanatics and Arachnarok spider were the biggest pain in the ass to deal with.
I found that the key to victory was to make sure that my halberdiers are the one holding the spider in place with handgunners standing in the backlines and occasinal support from my life wizard(got him as a reward for the first quest battle). Another key is avoiding the blobing of your army(fanatics will hurt your infantry badly and spider can trigger a mass rout) and instead try to trick the goblins themselves into blobing, a good flanking charge from the Reiksguard can also trigger a mass rout in this situation.
 

CthuluIsSpy

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Yeah, Handgunners are amazing. The only real problem with them (and thunderers for that matter) is trying to find a good formation that allows you to still have a front line whilst not blocking lines of fire.
I've used Chevron formations, but they always felt odd to me.
It is possible to build a gunline army and just have artillery and handguns, but that always makes me nervous; if the enemy does manage to reach your lines you're screwed.
 

pakoito

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So I've found a machine and setup that allows me to play, and I want to start Skraven, preferably in Mortal Empires. I have the DLC that turbocharges their mechanics too. Any guides or advice or how the fuck is this game played on the strategic layer? My plan is to run the campaign on easy and battles in medium, to be able to test stuff and have some challenge while I learn.
 

CthuluIsSpy

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Build tall, not wide.
Unlike most other TW games you don't actually want to expand that quickly, because buildings cost a lot of money and its better to have one high tier building churning out high tier units than a bunch of low tier buildings churning out low tier units.
Grab a province, build it up, and then grab another one.
Its why the game gives you the option to sack instead of occupying; it allows you to be at war and damage your enemy's infrastructure without expanding.
There is no turn limit so take your time. Even Eye of the Vortex doesn't have a turn limit; if theory you can play it indefinitely as long as you successfully interrupt the AI's rituals.

You also have the option to raze, but that's more for territory you can't hold.
If you don't think you can hold land and its really far from your territory, raze it.
If its close to your territory but you don't want to expand, sack it.

If you want to expand, sack then then occupy in the same turn to get a massive influx of cash, but only if you're getting several thousand gold out of it. Looting is pointless, unless there's something I'm missing.
If you want to expand and the settlement is worth nothing, just occupy. Sacking damages buildings, and if the settlement is worth nothing you'll end up losing gold.

Skaven has a mechanic where all of their cities look like ruins.
It is completely worthless as the AI will still know which cities are yours and what cities don't have walls. In fact, the AI will always make a bee-line for a settlement that doesn't have walls, so fortify everything to slow it down and confuse the hell out of it.
 
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thesheeep

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Yeah, Handgunners are amazing. The only real problem with them (and thunderers for that matter) is trying to find a good formation that allows you to still have a front line whilst not blocking lines of fire.
I've used Chevron formations, but they always felt odd to me.
Heh, try playing Vampire Coast, where all your ranged units are using guns (except artillery).

Chevron is overkill, IMO. A simple checkerboard with protection from flanking on the side works fine.
As soon as the frontlines collide, chevron starts falling apart - things just don't work out that nicely. And if it falls apart anyway, no need to take the time setting it up.
There is no formation that will take the work off your hands of having to move your gunfire-ranged units around manually after a while.

Honestly, that's mostly advice for the entire game.
Don't waste too much time setting up your army in battle, just do something that isn't complete bonkers and then micro during battle (as you have to do that anyway).
 
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CthuluIsSpy

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I did play Vampire Coast, and I found them really easy to play (seriously, they are probably one of the most OP factions in the game. They are Vampire Counts but much better. They don't even suffer attrition in low corruption lands, which is weird), with the only difficult part being how to stop enemies from reaching my gunline.
I think I ended up using prometheans or whatever those hermit crabs are called, with some Depth Guard as counter chargers and pole deckhands as a tarpit for cav and monsters.
 

CthuluIsSpy

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Also, another hint for Mortal Empires: Don't bother with the long game objective.
It takes about 200 turns to finish a short game, because of that damned key settlement requirement. You need 8 of them, and they all tend to be far from your start and in the hands of a major faction.
Long Game wants you to have 17 of them.

You can make it a bit easier through forming military alliances, but that only works if you're a faction that actually has diplomatic options, like Elves, Dwarfs, Brets and Empire. If you're Undead, Greenskin, Skaven or Dark Elves you're going to have to do it the hard way because no one will like you enough to form military alliances, at least the factions that have the settlements you need.

Speaking of Elves; is the AI supposed to be bad at playing High Elves? In both of my Mortal Empire campaigns Ulthuan gets overrun by Dark Elves.
 

thesheeep

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I did play Vampire Coast, and I found them really easy to play, with the only difficult part being how to stop enemies from reaching my gunline.
I think I ended up using prometheans or whatever those hermit crabs are called.
Prometheans have the great advantage of being pretty low-unit-count with much space between them - easier for your ranged units to shoot through.

Other units are actually better for tanking, like banshees (except against magic, obv.), but that space-to-fire-through advantage is significant on an open field.
 

Maculo

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Strap Yourselves In Pathfinder: Wrath
So I've found a machine and setup that allows me to play, and I want to start Skraven, preferably in Mortal Empires. I have the DLC that turbocharges their mechanics too. Any guides or advice or how the fuck is this game played on the strategic layer? My plan is to run the campaign on easy and battles in medium, to be able to test stuff and have some challenge while I learn.
I only dabbled with Skaven briefly, but off the top of my head:
  • You can spend food to colonize ruins at a higher tier level. This can save you a lot of time (in turns) and potentially money to obtain higher tiered settlements.
  • Skaven have great specialist and monster units (artillery, rat ogres, gunners), but to start you have to rely on low leadership infantry to some extent. This can be a challenge depending on what legendary lord you choose. That is not to say the low tier infantry are useless, because skavenslaves or clanrats can remain cost effective canon fodder.
  • Outside of monsters and plague monks, I found that higher tier melee units under-performed relative to artillery and ranged. The supremacy of ranged and artillery is true for many factions, but ratling gunners can dish out absurd damage.
 

pakoito

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Thank you for all the advice. Remember, I can barely understand how the game works mechanically and it'll be my first Total War game :D I've played my fair share of Dominions, FFH2 and such so I know the genre. It's mostly the battles that attract me here, I want to try tactics, have large battles etc.
 

CthuluIsSpy

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Don't bother with clanrats.
They are barely better than skavenslaves and cost more upkeep. You want to spam slaves and basically drown your enemy in cannon fodder while you shoot the crap of them.
Sort of like what you can do with Undead and Greenskins, really, except better because Skaven artillery and ranged units are filthy.

I think you can spam clanrats with Queek instead of slaves because he has an upkeep reduction bonus on them, so they end up costing about the same as slaves, but with other lords its better to use slaves so you can afford more ratling guns and plagueclaws.
 

Maculo

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Strap Yourselves In Pathfinder: Wrath
Thank you for all the advice. Remember, I can barely understand how the game works mechanically and it'll be my first Total War game :D I've played my fair share of Dominions, FFH2 and such so I know the genre. It's mostly the battles that attract me here, I want to try tactics, have large battles etc.
It may take a couple of failed campaigns to get the hang of it, but you can track how you improve across campaigns. For battles, there are certain combat modifiers that are not explained all that well in-game imo:
  1. Line of sight for ranged units is important. Bows and crossbows fire in an arc, guns fire in a straight line. While gun lines are great, they wont fire effectively if the line of sight is blocked by your frontline. You can put gunlines on a hill (firing down), leaving space in between formations, or circling your gun units around to fire from the sides (with risk). This can be easier said than done sometimes, because certain battle maps have terrible elevations (or lack thereof). Furthermore, units can screw it up and run straight into an enemy to obtain line of sight (unless you put those units on guard mode).
  2. Unit fatigue reduces combat stats. The Fatigue indicators show on the unit cards as green (rested), yellow (winded), or red (exhausted) indicators. If you use Force March stance, your entire army will be exhausted. This can make March stance risky, because if your army is attacked all of your units will be debuffed for that battle.
  3. The bonus for cavalry charges only lasts 10-15 seconds. You can pull your cavalry out of an engagement and charge again to refresh the bonus.
  4. A unit uses 100% of its melee defense stat from the front, and I believe 50% from the back and 75% from the sides (someone correct me if I am wrong on the %). What this means is that you can do more damage from attacking the backs or sides of an enemy. Similarly, if you are units are being attacked from behind or from the side, it will take more damage.
  5. Fighting (or firing) uphill debuffs your units. Inversely, fighting (or shooting) downhill gives your units a boost.
 
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Darth Roxor

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Outside of monsters and plague monks, I found that higher tier melee units under-performed relative to artillery and ranged.

I never found a good use for plague monks. In my experience they are too expensive to serve as meatshields, and too squishy to do any heavy lifting. I'd rather just roll with verminos.

Otoh when it comes to other high tier-melees, I had quite a bit of success with death runners. Death runners and assassin heroes are great at removing enemy artillery or shanking gits in sieges, especially since skaven have neither cavalry nor flying units.
 

thesheeep

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Unit fatigue can reduce combat stats. The Fatigue indicators show on the unit cards as green (rested), yellow (winded), or red (exhausted) indicators. If you use Force March stance, your entire army will be exhausted. This can make March stance risky, because if your army is attacked all of your units will be debuffed for that battle.
I honestly found fatigue mostly irrelevant in battles.
After just fighting for a bit, every unit will be exhausted anyway and it won't get worse than that.
The only difference this makes is really at the very start of the battle (so the March stance advice is a good one, and also don't let your units "run" if you don't have to when advancing on the battlefield).

So, once the units actually clash, you can mostly stop worrying about it since it isn't worth keeping a unit out of battle just to let its fatigue recover.

especially since skaven have neither cavalry nor flying units.
Isn't Doomwheel cavalry? Kinda...

Anyway, when I fought Skaven as Norsca, my trolls and mammoths sure saw lots of flying skaven :positive:
 

Maculo

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Strap Yourselves In Pathfinder: Wrath
Outside of monsters and plague monks, I found that higher tier melee units under-performed relative to artillery and ranged.

I never found a good use for plague monks. In my experience they are too expensive to serve as meatshields, and too squishy to do any heavy lifting. I'd rather just roll with verminos.

Otoh when it comes to other high tier-melees, I had quite a bit of success with death runners. Death runners and assassin heroes are great at removing enemy artillery or shanking gits in sieges, especially since skaven have neither cavalry nor flying units.
It has been a long time, but I thought Plague Monks had a debuff aura of some type, which allowed the frontline to survive a little while longer. Maybe I am thinking of the hero unit.
 
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Campaign:

- Focus on getting whole provinces. This makes public order easier, provides commandments, and adds more growth to get higher level buildings.
- Get level 3 walls in your minor settlements and walls in your major settlement ASAP. This generally provides your garrisons several turns to hold out before the AI assaults. Taking a settlement always reduces its level so if they take it and you take it back a level 3 goes back to level 1 and you've lost a shit ton of growth and cash investment. Not actually precisely correct for skaven since they use food but its still a good general tip and you don't have infinite food to re-colonize settlements.
- Pay attention to how to use army stances. Forced March is good for movement but you can't withdraw in battle so you are a major sitting duck during the AI turn. Ambush stance is very, very good for luring the AI's army out of a strong settlement and defeating it. The AI has some form of vision cheat and can see your armies further than you can see theirs (or something like this), but ambush stance makes you invisible and the AI never "remembers" that your army was around the previous turn so it will happily march towards your now apparently undefended settlement and trigger the ambush. Also note that you can see your movement % remaining when you take an army move on the bottom left, so a good pattern is take settlement->Use 75% of your move towards next settlement and go into ambush->hopefully ambush any AI army during AI turn->take next settlement->repeat.
- If you feel outmatched on the campaign map go into ambush next to your settlement, on the ambush you'll fight with both the garrison and your army vs. their one army.
- For your lords you generally want the blue and red line skills before yellow. Skaven don't need lightning strike since they can ambush on attack, but replenishment/upkeep/movement bonuses are still great.
- Casters are really useful and good to get early and start leveling immediately. Other heroes are good for things like movement bonuses or replenishment.
- Under no circumstances should you ever get a full military alliance with an AI except to immediately fulfill a victory condition and win the game. Otherwise they WILL draw you into retarded wars where they will not pull their weight and the enemy immediately comes for you. Defensive alliances are still kind of iffy, non-aggression pacts are ideal.

Battle:
- Pay attention to AP vs. non-AP. non-AP will suck hard vs. armored units. Spells can be AP or non-AP too. Damage type like Magical or Fire does NOT mean it ignores armor, even magical attacks will have an AP vs. non-AP split, all these mean is that the unit will ignore physical resistance which is pretty rare.
- Similarly pay attention to shields vs. ranged damage. Also angle to get a decent line of fire is important. If you can get ranged units, especially handgunners, behind an enemy engaged in melee you'll deal obscene damage.
- Monstrous units generally aren't great thrown into battle alone. Put them ontop of a regular army unit to absorb damage and ensure they aren't flanked.
- "routing" units still count for the overall balance of power and can come back if they regain morale before reaching the edge of the map. "shattered" units are gone. A quick high-charge bonus unit to chase enemies down until they are shattered is important early game. Or, for skaven, you can simply use skavenslaves since they are cheaper than whatever you are chasing away.

A unit uses 100% of its melee defense stat from the front, and I believe 50% from the back and 75% from the sides (someone correct me if I am wrong on the %). What this means is that you can do more damage from attacking the backs or sides of an enemy. Similarly, if you are units are being attacked from behind or from the side, it will take more damage.

Not sure on the numbers but keep in mind that this is applied on a per-model basis. So a unit of 160 skaven that is surrounded generally doesn't take the penalty past the first few seconds since the ones in the back will turn around to fight behind them. For the most part this mechanic is a debuff to low model count units that get surrounded (e.g. lords with 80 melee defense still get hit fairly often by decent melee units).

I never found a good use for plague monks. In my experience they are too expensive to serve as meatshields, and too squishy to do any heavy lifting. I'd rather just roll with verminos.

Generally agree but the plague monks you can summon with a plague caster are amazing. Just summon behind enemy lines and you'll get hundreds of kills, the fact that they are a glass cannon not mattering since they'll expire in a minute or so anyway.

I honestly found fatigue mostly irrelevant in battles.
After just fighting for a bit, every unit will be exhausted anyway and it won't get worse than that.
The only difference this makes is really at the very start of the battle (so the March stance advice is a good one, and also don't let your units "run" if you don't have to when advancing on the battlefield).

The one place where it does matter is in sieges, where units who climb walls lose 100% of their stamina.
 
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Build tall, not wide.
Unlike most other TW games you don't actually want to expand that quickly, because buildings cost a lot of money and its better to have one high tier building churning out high tier units than a bunch of low tier buildings churning out low tier units.
Grab a province, build it up, and then grab another one.
Its why the game gives you the option to sack instead of occupying; it allows you to be at war and damage your enemy's infrastructure without expanding.
There is no turn limit so take your time. Even Eye of the Vortex doesn't have a turn limit; if theory you can play it indefinitely as long as you successfully interrupt the AI's rituals.

You also have the option to raze, but that's more for territory you can't hold.
If you don't think you can hold land and its really far from your territory, raze it.
If its close to your territory but you don't want to expand, sack it.

If you want to expand, sack then then occupy in the same turn to get a massive influx of cash, but only if you're getting several thousand gold out of it. Looting is pointless, unless there's something I'm missing.
If you want to expand and the settlement is worth nothing, just occupy. Sacking damages buildings, and if the settlement is worth nothing you'll end up losing gold.

Skaven has a mechanic where all of their cities look like ruins.
It is completely worthless as the AI will still know which cities are yours and what cities don't have walls. In fact, the AI will always make a bee-line for a settlement that doesn't have walls, so fortify everything to slow it down and confuse the hell out of it.
build tons of crap rats, your armies are going to suck for a loooooooong time, it's better to have several of them, groups of 2-3, always raiding, even in the same region, you're doing it for food and not for money. in battle all you need is to have superior number of armies (whole armies) and encircle, sooner or later some enemy troop is going to break morale, then it's all snowballing from there. i'd suggest the use of this https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1158782544 otherwise your summoned rats are doing to literally melt in literally 10 seconds, and this https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1165729756 to ease the insane micro you're going to face.
 
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wat. Skaven start the game with enough food to colonize a tier 3 settlement immediately (Get catapults, both of your good caster heroes, ratling guns, warpfire throwers, rat ogres) and only need to fight like 1 battle to be able to colonize a tier 4 (allowing basically every good unit but doomwheels and hellpit aboms). As a race they are quite literally the best for getting amazing units quickly, no one else comes close. In fact intentionally letting your starting capital revolt so you can re-colonize it to level 4 is a decent strategy.
 

Maculo

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Strap Yourselves In Pathfinder: Wrath
Unit fatigue can reduce combat stats. The Fatigue indicators show on the unit cards as green (rested), yellow (winded), or red (exhausted) indicators. If you use Force March stance, your entire army will be exhausted. This can make March stance risky, because if your army is attacked all of your units will be debuffed for that battle.
I honestly found fatigue mostly irrelevant in battles.
After just fighting for a bit, every unit will be exhausted anyway and it won't get worse than that.
The only difference this makes is really at the very start of the battle (so the March stance advice is a good one, and also don't let your units "run" if you don't have to when advancing on the battlefield).

So, once the units actually clash, you can mostly stop worrying about it since it isn't worth keeping a unit out of battle just to let its fatigue recover.
I mainly pay attention to fatigue on my units when I am besieging. When convenient, I will let a lord or unit rest before pushing the defenders again.

Where it can also be useful is baiting the AI to run towards you (or run them around the map), especially uphill, so that fatigue kicks in faster. It is not a huge difference, but still another advantage you can provide to your front line/cavalry.
 
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considered that positioning does barely anything, worsened by the claustrophobic maps, all it's left is fatigue and it should play a bigger part. i use a mod which tinkers a bit with combat mechanics and give skeletons perfect vigor. fighting them is finally frightening, the longer the fight takes the closer they are to victory no matter what. fighting uphill, literally, should be a killer. hell, up to the '60s taking a hill has been has been a fundamental tactical advantage. all it changes in warhammer instead is being able to pull -maybe- one more archer volley, which is barely noticeable, if at all.
 

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