Trigger the codex with a statement.

[Ol' Willy]

Comparing linear Dysco that requires one playthrough and heavily branching AoD that requires multiple playthroughs. Good job, mate.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Eh, its a good game, just massively overhyped here, mostly by cocksuckers.

Person with animu userpic calling other people cocksuckers. How ironic.

 

[Curratum]

Age of Decadence is the exclusive domain of clinical-grade autists.

 

[Harthwain]

Comparing linear Dysco that requires one playthrough and heavily branching AoD that requires multiple playthroughs. Good job, mate.

You're not very good at reading, are you?

 

[Lhynn]

Person with animu userpic calling other people cocksuckers. How ironic.

Platitudes by a moronic newfag. How fitting.
If you have anything of value to say about the subject at hand then say it, if you have nothing then fuck off.

 

[Ol' Willy]

You're not very good at reading, are you?

Dysco requires rolls because game is linear and fixed checks will cockblock a lot of players - and eliminate the need to experiment, giving you one ultimate build to progress unhindered.

AoD is branching and fixed checks do a job to funnel you to a different path or outcome.

Adding skillrolls to AoD will casualise it, making it closer to "I want to see everything in one playthrough" crowd; it will make you savescum even more, now outside of combat too. Remember how awesome skillrolls were in Fagout 3?

 

[Frozen]

Women are people too.

 

[Harthwain]

Dysco requires rolls because game is linear and fixed checks will cockblock a lot of players - and eliminate the need to experiment, giving you one ultimate build to progress unhindered.

Or because that's how an actual RPG works: you roll some dice and see if you made it or not.

AoD is branching and fixed checks do a job to funnel you to a different path or outcome. Adding skillrolls to AoD will casualise it, making it closer to "I want to see everything in one playthrough" crowd; it will make you savescum even more, now outside of combat too.

Some people savescum, ergo the system is worse? What kind of argument is that? If they want to savescum: let them. Who cares? It's not like we're talking about a multiplayer-oriented game here. Do you mind people using cheats in singleplayer too?

Edit: Also, I don't to see how succeeding some checks could allow you to see everything, considering that "AoD is branching"? If you get into a particular path/outcome/branch, you still needed to play again in order to see the other outcomes (provided you manage to pass a check for them. Because - assuming we're talking about Disco system repurposed for AoD - you aren't guaranteed to pass a skill check. Each skill check has its own difficulty level, meaning some are harder than others, thus requiring more investment in particular skills in order to have better chances of passing them)?

Remember how awesome skillrolls were in Fagout 3?

You played Fallout 3? I didn't.

 

[Lilura]

AoD is the greatest RPG of the post-Renaissance era.

 

[Cryomancer]

Do you mind people using cheats in singleplayer too?

There are some people who had problem with people modding D&D games to make then more D&D like. Yes, i saw some people criticizing the Spell Fixes mod for NWN2... https://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn2/script/spell-fixes-and-improvements

PS : Playing as a Pale Master on BG2 and don't care if "hur dur is not the way that the devs intended" https://artisans-corner.com/the-artisans-kitpack/

 

[Ol' Willy]

Some people savescum, ergo the system is worse? What kind of argument is that? If they want to savescum: let them. Who cares? It's not like we're talking about a multiplayer-oriented game here. Do you mind people using cheats in singleplayer too?

Savescumming wasn't the main argument. My argument was that hard skillchecks are here to direct player to different paths and outcomes. With rolls you can just bruteforce your way through, invalidating the entire concept VDweller had in mind.

I don't mind variables in skillchecks, but it's a hell to account for and properly code. Like, you repair the elevator engine - it may work alright, it may work just couple of times, or it may stop working midway down, trapping you inside. Or it could just straight up malfunction and send you down at full speed. Cool, but just too many variables for modern games.

"Or because that's how an actual RPG works: you roll some dice and see if you made it or not."

In original PnP RPG you have DM that will account for aforementioned variables. You don't have to code for you have the superior human brain to account for all that stuff, you don't need to have more graphical assets for you have your own brain to imagine all that stuff.

 

[Harthwain]

Savescumming wasn't the main argument. My argument was that hard skillchecks are here to direct player to different paths and outcomes. With rolls you can just bruteforce your way through, invalidating the entire concept VDweller had in mind.

You either pass a skill check or not (because you can't even attempt it). Rolls fulfill exactly the same function: you either succeed or not. The only difference is that you have a bit more leeway when attempting the skill check, which depends on how hard the roll is versus how high your skill is (plus the unpredictable dice).

If you really want to criticize the system, then you should talk about a situation in which the player happens be so unlucky that he keeps rolling ones, failing all skill checks, despite how high his skills are when attempting skill checks. But that's not the argument you're making: you're saying that you can "bruteforce your way through", which is the opposite.

I don't mind variables in skillchecks, but it's a hell to account for and properly code. Like, you repair the elevator engine - it may work alright, it may work just couple of times, or it may stop working midway down, trapping you inside. Or it could just straight up malfunction and send you down at full speed. Cool, but just too many variables for modern games.

In original PnP RPG you have DM that will account for aforementioned variables. You don't have to code for you have the superior human brain to account for all that stuff, you don't need to have more graphical assets for you have your own brain to imagine all that stuff.

What are you talking about? What variables? The outcomes are still binary: success or failure, so nothing really changes when it comes to you failing the skill check. The result would be identical to you not having enough skill points to attempt pass a hard check in AoD.

This only changes if a failed skill check introduces a new situation to the player, but this can be accounted for by developer deciding what happens after that. Or you could put in a bit of text explaining why you failed and the situation returning to status quo from before the failed check (essentially meaning "You failed the skill check. Try something else").

So, again, what are you talking about?

 

[Zlaja]

Do you mind people using cheats in singleplayer too?

YES!

 

[Cryomancer]

Do you mind people using cheats in singleplayer too?

YES!

Explain why. How someone cheating in a SP game impact your game or your life...

 

[Ol' Willy]

What are you talking about? What variables?

Rolls are indispensable in combat, adding much needed RNG: hit or miss, how much damage, critical hit or critical failure... Variables. Binary skillrolls are pointless: it either yes or no. It's like roll 1-6 to miss or roll 7-12 to deal 35 damage every time, with no variation. Hard skillchecks are better for binary outcomes.

This only changes if a failed skill check introduces a new situation to the player, but this can be accounted for by developer deciding what happens after that.

That's what I'm talking about. Hard skillcheks - or skillrolls with new outcomes. 1-3 faillure, 9-12 success, and 4-8 some new situation that adds some more new stuff.

 

[Zlaja]

Do you mind people using cheats in singleplayer too?

YES!

Explain why. How someone cheating in a SP game impact your game or your life...

I know it's silly but it triggers me a bit when people do such shit in games. I guess I find it juvenile. Interestingly enough, I don't really get mad when I hear of people cheating in multiplayer games. I guess it's because I have a better understanding WHY someone would cheat in a game like that than in a SP game.

 

[Harthwain]

Binary skillrolls are pointless: it either yes or no. It's like roll 1-6 to miss or roll 7-12 to deal 35 damage every time, with no variation. Hard skillchecks are better for binary outcomes

Rolls do serve a purpose: they bring an element of uncertainty, while at the same time offering you a possibility to attempt something, no matter how likely or unlikely it is to succeed. Fixed skill checks force you to have a specific skill at specific level in order for you to be able to automatically pass a skill check.

The first creates tension by making the outcome less predictable (neither failure nor success are guaranteed, but they are more or less likely to occur) and keeps your skills always relevant to a degree. The second is either just a boring "I win!" option or "No bueno" greyed out line on your screen. "Better" is a matter of opinion at this point. Personally I do not find the latter to be particularly interesting.

That's what I'm talking about. Hard skillcheks - or skillrolls with new outcomes. 1-3 faillure, 9-12 success, and 4-8 some new situation that adds some more new stuff.

It's not really "either-or" type of situation, which is why you got me confused. This makes the whole talk about "coding variables" an argument against a case nobody really made.

 

[Ol' Willy]

The first creates tension by making the outcome less predictable (neither failure nor success are guaranteed, but they are more or less likely to occur) and keeps your skills always relevant to a degree

Such systems are easily abused and lead to heavy savescumming. Ever engaged in Pickpocket Rodeo in Fallout 1 or 2? And savescumming is the most powerful tool that any player has: no game has ever withstood it. Once again, VDweller had the vision, and allowing player to break his system at ease wasn't a part of it.

You played Fallout 3? I didn't.

Fallout 3 was cancelled in 2003. There's only Fagout 3.

 

[TemplarGR]

Anyway, talking again about templarGR, this RETARDED idea that popularity = quality really triggers me. And is so retarded.

Helloooooooooo madafaqa. If you are getting triggered, that means i am doing my job. See thread topic for more details.

 

[TemplarGR]

AoD is the greatest RPG of the post-Renaissance era.

If we go by your *ahem* flexible usage of the term RPG, seeing how you consider strategy games like Jagged Alliance 2 or Silent Storm as RPGs, then i think the greatest RPG of the post-renaissance era is definitely the Sims 4 with all its expansions. Endless roleplaying possibilities, stats, the whole package.

Though really, you are in no position to have an opinion on what qualifies as a good CRPG and what not. Really. You are just autistically focused on a few games you grew up with. Hardly objective or scientific about it.

 

[Zlaja]

You played Fallout 3? I didn't.

I never played a single Call of Duty game. Where's my fucking cookie?

 

[Harthwain]

Such systems are easily abused and lead to heavy savescumming. Ever engaged in Pickpocket Rodeo in Fallout 1 or 2? And savescumming is the most powerful tool that any player has: no game has ever withstood it. Once again, VDweller had the vision, and allowing player to break his system at ease wasn't a part of it.

"Savescumming wasn't the main argument", huh? It seems to be a pretty big deal after all, since you keep bringing it up. I don't see savescumming as a problem, nor do I think a game designer has an obligation to prevent players from savescumming, so the "VDweller's sacred vision" is irrelevant from where I am standing. Like I said before: "Better" is a matter of opinion at this point. Because it all boils down to what system one finds preferable.

 

[TemplarGR]

I never played a single Call of Duty game. Where's my fucking cookie?

You get no cookie for being an idiot kid. Bad students get punished and go back home to do their homework. Even my grandma couldn't confuse a proper CRPG like Fallout 3 with a first person shooter like Call of Duty, and she had altzhaimers.

 

[Cryomancer]

post-renaissance era is definitely the Sims 4 with all its expansions. Endless roleplaying possibilities, stats, the whole package.

Well, if Fallout 4 is a RPG for you, then the Sims 4 is also a RPG for you. Using your logic, makes sense. Wild West and Wizards and Outlaws of the Old west has way more RPG on it than FL4 an FL76 combined. Recently i bought Outlaws of the Old West and even the graphics looks way better than FL 76 with way less GPU requirement

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A Challenge for Betesthards. Find me one, a single one survival game with less RPG elements than BUGThesda post Oblivion games or EA post DA:O games, can be anyone, Conan Exiles, Outlaws of the Wild West, Ark(...) You name it. I just wanna see a single example. This Indies to "AA" Survival games tends to have more RP on it than ALL recent AAA """"rpgs"""" combined. And yes, Conan Exiles is a AA game, not a AAA IMO.

And your loved BUGThesda will never make a proper RPG again. Do you know why? A large company on US has to deal with a lot of regulatory progressive BS. Including diversity hiring. While game companies on Central and Eastern Europe, doesn't needs to waste resources hiring people who will work to make their games worse. Every time that a company becomes big enough to have to deal with this BS regulations, the quality of their product dumb down to appeal to the lowest common denominator. CD Projekt Red is an exception by being Polish. 4A games, by being Ukrainian. OwlCat by being Russian(the fact that consoles barely exist on Central/Eastern Europe also helps)

And this is a triggering fact to most AAA fans. Most of the high budget of the AAA games are wasted on INutilities. The programmers, 3D artists and other people who actually make the game with bellow average salaries and harsh crunch times while the company spend fortunes to hire someone which work will only destroy the game.

 

[Zlaja]

Even my grandma couldn't confuse a proper CRPG like Fallout 3 with a first person shooter like Call of Duty, and she had altzhaimers.

If your grandma thought Fallout 3 was a proper CRPG then alzheimers wasn't her biggest problem.

Bad students get punished and go back home to do their homework.

Then go back home and learn how to spell 'alzheimers'.