Tyranny + Bastard's Wound Expansion Thread

[Infinitron]

I think that was J_C trying to be sarcastic.

 

[SausageInYourFace]

Is it really such a flop on sales with about 90k after two weeks? Whats the reference point, how much you guys think it should've sold at that point in time?

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

Don't forget, reviewers are reviewing it as a general game, whereas here, on the codex, we're reviewing it as an RPG and solely as an RPG.

 

[ilitarist]

Is it really such a flop on sales with about 90k after two weeks? Whats the reference point, how much you guys think it should've sold at that point in time?

It's more of me wishing the game to be a success. I liked this game, best game Obsidian has made that is not a mod for a game made by another company. Ok, maybe NWN2 was better, especially with expansions.

As I understand most sales you get right after release. Of course later they'll get many people to buy it on sales but it will mean smaller revenue for Obsidian.

 

[Sizzle]

Is it really such a flop on sales with about 90k after two weeks? Whats the reference point, how much you guys think it should've sold at that point in time?

They reused a lot of PoE assets to make it, so it was likely significantly cheaper as a result. Which means it doesn't have to sell that much to make a profit.

 

[Haba]

Reviewers who praise c&c and replayability, yet haven't even completed act 1.

 

[J_C]

I think that was J_C trying to be sarcastic.

Not at all. I just tried to react in a Codexian way.

More reviews: http://www.gamebanshee.com/news/118150-tyranny-reviews-3.html

Metacritic: 82

It seems it is a complete flop.

All the reviews praise it but it looks like they just can't give a high score to a semi-2D RPG without universal appeal.

It seems that way. I think a semi-2D rpg wouldn't get a 95% score even if it gave free blowjobs.

 

[vonAchdorf]

They reused a lot of PoE assets to make it, so it was likely significantly cheaper as a result. Which means it doesn't have to sell that much to make a profit.

But it didn't have the "free" KS money like PoE, so it has to earn more through sales. I don't think that 90k (or 100k with GOG) is a flop, but I think it's on the lower end of their expectations because only 1/10 of current PoE owners decided to get it right away. Either they didn't properly address the current owner crowd, or even worse, the current PoE owners didn't like the game enough to immediately buy a similar project at full price.

 

[Roguey]

It was better tbh. By virtue of having less busywork.

Isn't that what AI and easy/normal mode is for?

Torment's combat also takes less time. If I had to choose between two bad combat systems, I'd pick the fastest one every single time.

You posted that it takes an average of 15 seconds to kill an enemy, spent fewer than 2 hours in combat for the entire game, and think that Torment, with its 5 second rounds, is quicker?

It is simply baffling how after decades of experience, expert game designers can't create good hand crafted encounters. We are still stuck with literal MMO/H&S design with blobs of mobs with "auto aggro range". Kite enemies to a chokepoint and handle aggro!

GET FUCKING CANCER YOU RETARDED PIECES OF SHIT

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Combat was clearly not a focus in Tyranny. They delivered what Obsidian fans claimed they wanted, something shorter that focused largely on narrative and reactivity. Corrupt a wish Obsidian style.

(Additionally, what decades of experience, have you seen the area design credits?)

Yes, bad encounter design. It really is just copy & paste.

Torment and Tyranny are the same in this regard.

Also, someone at Obsidian loves to start combat with custscenes, which means you lose control over your characters as you watch them casually jog towards the enemy for a chat. (bonus points for ignoring stealth)

The same applies to Torment's boss battles.

It looks like a flop on sales, not with critics.

At this point, after Steam's cut, they've earned more than 3 million. They've likely passed the break-even point.

 

[ilitarist]

They reused a lot of PoE assets to make it, so it was likely significantly cheaper as a result. Which means it doesn't have to sell that much to make a profit.

But it didn't have the "free" KS money like PoE, so it has to earn more through sales. I don't think that 90k (or 100k with GOG) is a flop, but I think it's on the lower end of their expectations because only 1/10 of current PoE owners decided to get it right away. Either they didn't properly address the current owner crowd, or even worse, the current PoE owners didn't like the game enough to immediately buy a similar project at full price.

I imagine significant part of people who bought PoE wanted more of the same. You can even see it here in this thread with people not liking the fact the game doesn't have maps to explore, you always teleport right to where you're going with minimal thrash combat, and the couple of dungeons are relatively packed with content. The larger crowd probably has another priorities and for them PoE was a big game about adventure with elves and dragons. Tyranny has no elves or dragons, it has a relatively unique style and looks more like a boring historical game than magical adventure. Perhaps it will grow on people later when Best Of 2016 lists come along - what other RPGs are there to receive rewards? Dark Souls 3? Banner Saga 2?

 

[SausageInYourFace]

They reused a lot of PoE assets to make it, so it was likely significantly cheaper as a result. Which means it doesn't have to sell that much to make a profit.

But it didn't have the "free" KS money like PoE, so it has to earn more through sales. I don't think that 90k (or 100k with GOG) is a flop, but I think it's on the lower end of their expectations because only 1/10 of current PoE owners decided to get it right away. Either they didn't properly address the current owner crowd, or even worse, the current PoE owners didn't like the game enough to immediately buy a similar project at full price.

That is my worry and it doesn't bode too well for PoE2 and the historical RPG.

Since most 'second generation Renaissance RPGs' seem to do worse, it may have been a short lived resurrection after all, though I hope I am wrong. Not too long ago, things were looking pretty good but now I am not so sure anymore.

 

[MrMarbles]

The only demanding fights I remember from Torment were the (completely optional of course) robot wizard at the end of the maze and the demon from the box. A lot of people seem to agree that the fight at the end of Tyranny's act 1 is pretty tough so it just needs one more to match it, two to exceed it.

Even if combat is PSTs weak spot, the box demon, robot wizard, angel, rat god, boss fight in the first dungeon, dead city etc. are arguably all better than anything Tyranny has to offer. Even with poor mechanics they are simply more interesting than 'oh it's another bunch of humans only this time there's 7 of them instead of 4'.

 

[Sizzle]

They reused a lot of PoE assets to make it, so it was likely significantly cheaper as a result. Which means it doesn't have to sell that much to make a profit.

But it didn't have the "free" KS money like PoE, so it has to earn more through sales. I don't think that 90k (or 100k with GOG) is a flop, but I think it's on the lower end of their expectations because only 1/10 of current PoE owners decided to get it right away. Either they didn't properly address the current owner crowd, or even worse, the current PoE owners didn't like the game enough to immediately buy a similar project at full price.

I'd wager it has a lot to do with the price - a game like this should be sold for less than the current $45.

 

[Shadenuat]

Also, someone at Obsidian loves to start combat with custscenes, which means you lose control over your characters as you watch them casually jog towards the enemy for a chat. (bonus points for ignoring stealth)

The same applies to Torment's boss battles.

I'm still surprised at the legion of skills that only work from stealth. Most characters have them, skill trees have them, some trees are basically about them (like Beastwoman dps tree).

 

[Roguey]

Even if combat is PSTs weak spot, the box demon, robot wizard, angel, rat god, boss fight in the first dungeon, dead city etc. are arguably all better than anything Tyranny has to offer. Even with poor mechanics they are simply more interesting than 'oh it's another bunch of humans only this time there's 7 of them instead of 4'.

There was a time when tons of people praised the party vs party fights of the Infinity Engine games.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

You can even see it here in this thread with people not liking the fact the game doesn't have maps to explore

Without exploration then perhaps, like Age of Decadence, its less RPG and more Choose Your Own Adventure. A sub-genre with enough obvious definition to warrant having its own separate label, like Rougelike does?

 

[Shadenuat]

Even if combat is PSTs weak spot, the box demon, robot wizard, angel, rat god, boss fight in the first dungeon, dead city etc. are arguably all better than anything Tyranny has to offer. Even with poor mechanics they are simply more interesting than 'oh it's another bunch of humans only this time there's 7 of them instead of 4'.

There was a time when tons of people praised the party vs party fights of the Infinity Engine games.

Because enemy parties in Tyranny, regardless of difficulty, lose any deadliness after about 10% of the game.

 

[Roguey]

Because enemy parties in Tyranny, regardless of difficulty, lose any deadliness after about 10% of the game.

Not that particular fight though.

 

[ilitarist]

Without exploration then perhaps, like Age of Decadence, its less RPG and more Choose Your Own Adventure. A sub-genre with enough obvious definition to warrant having its own separate label, like Rougelike does?

Since when is spacial exploration a necessary part of an RPG? I like that Tyranny gets right to the point. Currently trying to play Baldur's Gate 1 EE and its empty maps make me value Tyranny approach even more. There's a charm in a game adding deliberately boring parts to the game but it works better in games where it is explained narratively or there are some alternatives (see Dark Souls forcing you backtrack through explored places for most of the game).

 

[Ausdoerrt]

Don't get all the negativity about combat when it's generally the same as PoE but a tad better. Not sure what else y'all expected.

Since when is spacial exploration a necessary part of an RPG? I like that Tyranny gets right to the point. Currently trying to play Baldur's Gate 1 EE and its empty maps make me value Tyranny approach even more. There's a charm in a game adding deliberately boring parts to the game but it works better in games where it is explained narratively or there are some alternatives (see Dark Souls forcing you backtrack through explored places for most of the game).

Tyranny also has "exploration", just not for the sake of exploration. Oldwall was a cute little dungeon, for example.

Ok, maybe NWN2 was better, especially with expansions.

No way.

 

[ilitarist]

Don't get all the negativity about combat when it's generally the same as PoE but a tad better. Not sure what else y'all expected.

Combat encounters are less varied than in PoE. Plus starting with Act 2 combat becomes very easy.

 

[MrMarbles]

Even if combat is PSTs weak spot, the box demon, robot wizard, angel, rat god, boss fight in the first dungeon, dead city etc. are arguably all better than anything Tyranny has to offer. Even with poor mechanics they are simply more interesting than 'oh it's another bunch of humans only this time there's 7 of them instead of 4'.

There was a time when tons of people praised the party vs party fights of the Infinity Engine games.

And rightfully so. Even the crappiest parties, like that random party of bums you meet out in the wilderness east of Beregost, had more personality, charm and variation than any fight in Tyranny. They had names, differentiated looks, a coherent-ish theme and, crucially, items that matched their style. So what if a staff of fire and a spell could finish them off in seconds, finding strats was part of the fun and the first time you played it you'd still have a tough battle.

What do the generic, uni-colored, uniformed clones in Tyranny leave after you've killed them off with a cycle of cooldowns or two? A busted helm and maybe if you're lucky a Sun Javelin. Massive yawn.

 

[Lhynn]

Lilura has it right.

Nope.

Defending IE combat on account of it being "charmingly broken" is laughable.

No one is doing that, they are just saying that like with most RPGs, there are some combinations of factors that make most fights past a certain point easy. Avalanche effect, too many good decisions made in a row make the game easier than intended, this is good for an rpg, its great, it means your system is flexible enough.

Tyranny solved many PoE combat problems. Like limiting crafting to creating new items

How does that have to do with combat? Not that it matters, from what ive heard most people dont bother with crafting.

in PoE you fight with boring optimized equipment, in Tyranny you get some interesting equipment.

Gonna call bullshit on that, other than damage, within their same category and type most stuff is irrelevant, you just equip what has better stats and move on, and never remember what the fuck you are using. Mostly because it largely does not matter.

As I see it, Tyranny combat is actually much closer to IE combat in bad ways

Nope, it isnt, its the same shit that we got with poe, a combat that goes by so fast that you are pausing every second to give your party orders that they could have made on their own, "spam your damage cooldowns" or your "big buffs". Its spammy and retarded, and because you start every fight in the exact same condition (bar a few wounds if you have them) then you start the fight doing the exact same shit.

It requires you to understand some systems in the beginning otherwise you are easily killed.

It doesnt, not really, your character growth will refocus itself to favor whatever the fuck you are doing. I know i didnt do anything in particular other than spam cooldowns the 3 times i restarted the game.

But later you just steamroll everything without much effort.

Thank god for this, combat in this game is pure suffering.

IE game also throw puzzle-like fights on you, but those are mostly cheap bullshit requiring you to find a specific solution to a problem a la bad adventure game or bad wargame.

Yet there were always several ways to tackle those puzzle-like fights. The game is finishable with a single character of any class, and you can gather a party that will help you beat those "puzzle" fights, all you have to do is think, this is good. Changing tactics has a huge effect on IE combat, so every time you win after losing a couple times you feel a great satisfaction, that comes from the fact that you created a new tactic to deal with a situation and it paid off.

It's not adjusting tactics, it's trying to see what specific thing designer wanted you to do.

This is nonsense, as i said, every fight is beatable with almost any party configuration. Just git gud, scrub.

Apart from those puzzle fights IE combat is as repetitive as Tyranny

No, it isnt. Enemy variety and their stats alone make the two games incomparable. Fighting a bunch of golems isnt the same as fighting a bunch of bears, or wyverns, or spiders, or even spiders in their own nest, or mephits. They wildly change what you do and how you approach each fight. In the easiest fights you conserve resources in anticipation for the big fights, ergo why rest spamming isnt an issue, the game itself encourages you to take bigger and bigger challenges without resting, because it encourages resource managment. You think like 5 entire generations of BG2 players just found themselves never resting for no real reason? game encourages that behavior, where you either keep challenging yourself or you recover, and the satisfaction of being able to beat a whole dungeon without resting! you feel like a badass! its the fucking magic of good design.

even more so with amount of thrash combat you get.

Trash combat served its purpose in the IE games, in tranny they are just a waste of time.

But yes, IE games have many sprites for all those functionally identical monsters.

LOL, fighting skeletons, liches or skin dancers are completely different experiences, and its almost the same fucking sprite. Every enemy variety in IE games is wildly different than the others. Facing a pack of wolves is not the same as fighting a bunch of guards or a bunch of kobolds, and what if you are fighting dire wolves, or vampiric wolves, each posing a different threat and they are all fucking dogs. Not to mention that you can instantly recognize what their threat could be by their name and appearance, a thing that both in PoE and Tranny simply doesnt happen, you fight almost everything in the same way, only real difference was stuff that had strong cc.

There's also much more cheese in IE

This is not a fucking bad thing you retard. If a game allows you that degree of freedom and control over how you customize your team its bound to happen, and its fun when it does. Stop encouraging devs to make the game the fucking same for everyone.

so in theory when you know the game well enough you can play it without effort

And this is fucking amazing, it means that you mastered the fucking game you twat. Why do you think after over 15 years people replay it? despite having mastered it? because its fucking fun, and its fucking good. Tranny will be forgotten by 2017, not even a footnote on gaming history.

while Tyranny combat always requires busywork.

Its worse than that, it requires repetitive busywork, you always do the fucking same, against every fucking enemy in the game. Regardless of enemy composition or encouter design. The only thing that may change is that you give priority to casters or some retardedly simple shit like that.

Of those 2 bad solutions (cheap undeserved

How is it undeserved? how is it cheap? you had to fucking explore to get most of those items, you had to beat very nasty obstacles to be able to put them on, and it was fucking worth it, and it felt fucking amazing. Can you stop being such a fucking twat?

wins versus trivial micromanagement) there's no need to declare one of those good.

Of course you cant.

 

[Lilura]

Even if combat is PSTs weak spot, the box demon, robot wizard, angel, rat god, boss fight in the first dungeon, dead city etc. are arguably all better than anything Tyranny has to offer. Even with poor mechanics they are simply more interesting than 'oh it's another bunch of humans only this time there's 7 of them instead of 4'.

Greater Glabrezu is insta-pwned in Curst with a single spell or big-ass axe wielded by TNO at 3 ApR: One, two, thr-- Oh, it's fucking dead. I FEEL STRONGER. The others can be smacked down by a wet lettuce leaf, they are that weak and irrelevant. Next, tell me about PS:T's perverse pathing routine, clunky portable pop-up, spell-casting cutscenes, kludgy combat units sticking together and getting stuck, and infinite consumable use in inventory mode that makes its combat such a joy, such a challenge, and better than Tyranny's.

 

[Haplo]

Hey! I loved these jrpg cutscenes in my PS:T. Particularly the Mechanus' Cannon one. And also there was a ton of awesome cheese there. Like that Level 1 Gith spell....