Underrail: The Incline Awakens

[ItsChon]

Oh, sure. What I say applies to Hard, not Dominating.

Can someone tell me why the "best" rpgs all share the same primitive graphic and ugly interfaces and menus? it's a matter of nostalgia or what?

Because making super epic graphics requires you to hire 300 people and raise millions of dollars off dumbfucks in suits who have no idea what a good RPG is and then sell a million copies to dumbfucks who have no idea what a good RPG is, duh

Hollow knight is an indie and has awesome art and graphic. I'm not saying they should spend most of the budget in graphic, but at least make something more polished

I personally find Underrail neither particularly offensive or pleasing to the eye. It could certainly look better, and I think at the end of the day when you have a few people making their passion game on a string budget, you're rarely able to find a very talented artist & provide excellent art direction. Hollow Knight, after all, stands out from its own competition in metroidvanias.

UR began as a single person project I believe, and at the end of the day it's far better that Styg had a fantastic sense for RPG design even if he may not be world class at creating a beautiful, stylish looking game.

Also you should look at Beautiful Desolation though it's more adventure-y

Underrail's graphics are much more pleasing to me than what you linked. But then again, I also loved the artwork of BG, IWD, and PS:T. I'd have every single isometric RPG designed in this 2D way if it was up to me.

 

[Parabalus]

I find the expansion to be somehow worse looking than the base game. There was obviously more effort in the expansion art, but something just doesn't fit as well.

Blaine mentioned that it's because the expansion is much more busy visually, but more than that seems off.

 

[BING XI LAO]

Underrail starts off ugly, but places like the Tchort Institute and Lemuria are top notch,

 

[Tigranes]

Oh, sure. What I say applies to Hard, not Dominating.

Can someone tell me why the "best" rpgs all share the same primitive graphic and ugly interfaces and menus? it's a matter of nostalgia or what?

Because making super epic graphics requires you to hire 300 people and raise millions of dollars off dumbfucks in suits who have no idea what a good RPG is and then sell a million copies to dumbfucks who have no idea what a good RPG is, duh

Hollow knight is an indie and has awesome art and graphic. I'm not saying they should spend most of the budget in graphic, but at least make something more polished

I personally find Underrail neither particularly offensive or pleasing to the eye. It could certainly look better, and I think at the end of the day when you have a few people making their passion game on a string budget, you're rarely able to find a very talented artist & provide excellent art direction. Hollow Knight, after all, stands out from its own competition in metroidvanias.

UR began as a single person project I believe, and at the end of the day it's far better that Styg had a fantastic sense for RPG design even if he may not be world class at creating a beautiful, stylish looking game.

Also you should look at Beautiful Desolation though it's more adventure-y

Underrail's graphics are much more pleasing to me than what you linked. But then again, I also loved the artwork of BG, IWD, and PS:T. I'd have every single isometric RPG designed in this 2D way if it was up to me.

I would mandate every game to look like the IE games if I could, but I find Underrail a paler shadow of it. Most of the early levels start out as a Fallout asset dump. I don't think it's really UR's fault as is my preference for more fantasy-grounded environments. There were some genuinely nice looking and original bits and pieces in Expedition - though the sum of all its parts does indeed become a bit busy and messy.

 

[Alphard]

I can't speak about Normal anymore, since I must have played it once in 2015 and that was it. I love Underrail, but I certainly think there's a certain janky logic that you need to get in the rhythm of to succeed & to enjoy it. You're going to reload all the time trying to figure out what is the magic combination for your particular build that will allow you to take on preposterous odds against enemies that will fuck you up if they get 1 turn without interruption. I find that incredibly fun because Underrail gives a variety of fun abilities. But it also means that you've gotta be in that spirit of scouting, calculating, reloading, until you've got your "recipe" figured out.

Complaints about sell value seems weird to me, given Underrail has a broken economy like every other RPG where you have a gazillion dollars after the first few hours. We know Blaine is obsessed with spending hours filling out his pretty home with every pointless money sink in the game, and that's perfectly fine, but doesn't mean the game should throw more $ at the player.

Can someone tell me why the "best" rpgs all share the same primitive graphic and ugly interfaces and menus? it's a matter of nostalgia or what?

Because making super epic graphics requires you to hire 300 people and raise millions of dollars off dumbfucks in suits who have no idea what a good RPG is and then sell a million copies to dumbfucks who have no idea what a good RPG is, duh

Oh, sure. What I say applies to Hard, not Dominating.

Can someone tell me why the "best" rpgs all share the same primitive graphic and ugly interfaces and menus? it's a matter of nostalgia or what?

Because making super epic graphics requires you to hire 300 people and raise millions of dollars off dumbfucks in suits who have no idea what a good RPG is and then sell a million copies to dumbfucks who have no idea what a good RPG is, duh

Hollow knight is an indie and has awesome art and graphic. I'm not saying they should spend most of the budget in graphic, but at least make something more polished

I personally find Underrail neither particularly offensive or pleasing to the eye. It could certainly look better, and I think at the end of the day when you have a few people making their passion game on a string budget, you're rarely able to find a very talented artist & provide excellent art direction. Hollow Knight, after all, stands out from its own competition in metroidvanias.

UR began as a single person project I believe, and at the end of the day it's far better that Styg had a fantastic sense for RPG design even if he may not be world class at creating a beautiful, stylish looking game.

Also you should look at Beautiful Desolation though it's more adventure-y

UR Definitely is not the ugliest game i have ever seen, and i made the example of HK to demonstrate it is possible to make eye pleasing games with indie budget.
I think they should consider this more, because many people are turned away by the poor graphics alone, even if they would appreciate the deep gameplay the game offers. By investing more in graphic they could lure more people to this genre and make the niche larger, and so making more similar games being created

 

[hell bovine]

That's how Underrail plays for me. Since every single enemy (more or less) is capable of burning me down from full health to dead in a single turn, I have to win initiative in every fight and make sure every enemy is dead or otherwise unable to attack me every round. Okay. It's certainly doable, but I wouldn't call that "easy" by any definition of difficulty.

That's why with squishy characters like psions people tend to go the sneaky route: if you initiate combat from stealth, you go first. The other two solutions are: high con tin can (doesn't matter if you go last) and high initiative (when testing guns with Patsy I gave her gunslinger, paranoia and trigger happy - she had 40+ to initiative and that was on a low level character).

 

[ItsChon]

but I find Underrail a paler shadow of it. Most of the early levels start out as a Fallout asset dump.

Agree to disagree I suppose. Underrail's use of color is much more aesthetically pleasing to me than Fallouts, but it is what it is.

Though I don't understand what people mean when they describe Expedition as busy and messy? In what way?

 

[Blaine]

Though I don't understand what people mean when they describe Expedition as busy and messy? In what way?

Go to your private quarters in SGS and really take in the scenery. At its essence, it's simple, clean, and unadorned, though with several points of interest.

Now go to any floor in the Nexus of Technology and take in all the junk and detritus on the floor and walls, the elaborate and heavily decorated props and scenery, and the very high quantities of said props and interactable objects.

It's neither a good nor a bad thing, in my view. It's just a thing. There does also seem to be more raw artistic skill (or perhaps time and effort) behind many of the new art assets when compared to those from years ago, though the older ones are by no means bad or even amateurish.

As for the complaints that some of Expedition's areas feel copy-pasted, they're quite objectively valid, and the Nexus of Technology is again a great example. It's the same floor and nearly identical layout copy-pasted six times, but with rearranged props and set dressing. Contrast with SGS, where each individual floor is totally unique and can be recognized in a quick glance.

 

[Parabalus]

Some pics to add to what Blaine is saying.

This one is without many party, yet it already looks far busier than the SGS one:

Spoiler

Can't find a good pic of Hollow Earth sadly.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Can someone tell me why the "best" rpgs all share the same primitive graphic and ugly interfaces and menus? it's a matter of nostalgia or what?

Two things you never complain about on the Codex: Graphics and difficulty.

I actually think Underrail looks fine. Not great but fine, especially for a long-ass indie RPG made mostly by one guy.

 

[ItsChon]

Go to your private quarters in SGS and really take in the scenery. At its essence, it's simple, clean, and unadorned, though with several points of interest.

Now go to any floor in the Nexus of Technology and take in all the junk and detritus on the floor and walls, the elaborate and heavily decorated props and scenery, and the very high quantities of said props and interactable objects.

It's neither a good nor a bad thing, in my view. It's just a thing. There does also seem to be more raw artistic skill (or perhaps time and effort) behind many of the new art assets when compared to those from years ago, though the older ones are by no means bad or even amateurish.

As for the complaints that some of Expedition's areas feel copy-pasted, they're quite objectively valid, and the Nexus of Technology is again a great example. It's the same floor and nearly identical layout copy-pasted six times, but with rearranged props and set dressing. Contrast with SGS, where each individual floor is totally unique and can be recognized in a quick glance.

The debris and all the stuff fit thematically though. They're supposed to be packed ruins that are filthy with junk and detritus. As for your point regarding NoT, to that I say fair enough and I agree.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

That's how Underrail plays for me. Since every single enemy (more or less) is capable of burning me down from full health to dead in a single turn, I have to win initiative in every fight and make sure every enemy is dead or otherwise unable to attack me every round. Okay. It's certainly doable, but I wouldn't call that "easy" by any definition of difficulty.

That's why with squishy characters like psions people tend to go the sneaky route: if you initiate combat from stealth, you go first. The other two solutions are: high con tin can (doesn't matter if you go last) and high initiative (when testing guns with Patsy I gave her gunslinger, paranoia and trigger happy - she had 40+ to initiative and that was on a low level character).

My character is high Con (9) but that 25% health hit sucks. I also have enough agility to take Sprint but only 3 dex. I'm planning to take paranoia next level (16) to see if that helps, I don't have the stats for trigger happy and gunslinger seems like a waste of points.

(as an aside I'd note in 3.5E D&D Improved Initiative feat has no pre reqs. Why would you limit initiative feats only to high dex characters who are the least likely to actually need them?)

 

[Blaine]

The debris and all the stuff fit thematically though. They're supposed to be packed ruins that are filthy with junk and detritus.

Yeah, that's true. I never said there wasn't any reasoning behind it, though; and regardless of the reasoning, the contrast in styles is visually obvious.

 

[Tigranes]

That's how Underrail plays for me. Since every single enemy (more or less) is capable of burning me down from full health to dead in a single turn, I have to win initiative in every fight and make sure every enemy is dead or otherwise unable to attack me every round. Okay. It's certainly doable, but I wouldn't call that "easy" by any definition of difficulty.

That's why with squishy characters like psions people tend to go the sneaky route: if you initiate combat from stealth, you go first. The other two solutions are: high con tin can (doesn't matter if you go last) and high initiative (when testing guns with Patsy I gave her gunslinger, paranoia and trigger happy - she had 40+ to initiative and that was on a low level character).

My character is high Con (9) but that 25% health hit sucks. I also have enough agility to take Sprint but only 3 dex. I'm planning to take paranoia next level (16) to see if that helps, I don't have the stats for trigger happy and gunslinger seems like a waste of points.

(as an aside I'd note in 3.5E D&D Improved Initiative feat has no pre reqs. Why would you limit initiative feats only to high dex characters who are the least likely to actually need them?)

What's your build generally? You want to focus, so that your strengths are laser sharp to take down the enemy before they get a turn to wreck shit. Underrail's about alpha strikes, disables and gaining control of the battlefield, rather than maintaining equilibrium for a drawn out match. If you've put 9 in CON then face tanking is what you should develop. You want Paranoia for the +5 initiative? When you have 3 DEX? What's the point? That's like giving yourself 10 extra HP when you have 3 CON.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

That's how Underrail plays for me. Since every single enemy (more or less) is capable of burning me down from full health to dead in a single turn, I have to win initiative in every fight and make sure every enemy is dead or otherwise unable to attack me every round. Okay. It's certainly doable, but I wouldn't call that "easy" by any definition of difficulty.

That's why with squishy characters like psions people tend to go the sneaky route: if you initiate combat from stealth, you go first. The other two solutions are: high con tin can (doesn't matter if you go last) and high initiative (when testing guns with Patsy I gave her gunslinger, paranoia and trigger happy - she had 40+ to initiative and that was on a low level character).

My character is high Con (9) but that 25% health hit sucks. I also have enough agility to take Sprint but only 3 dex. I'm planning to take paranoia next level (16) to see if that helps, I don't have the stats for trigger happy and gunslinger seems like a waste of points.

(as an aside I'd note in 3.5E D&D Improved Initiative feat has no pre reqs. Why would you limit initiative feats only to high dex characters who are the least likely to actually need them?)

What's your build generally? You want to focus, so that your strengths are laser sharp to take down the enemy before they get a turn to wreck shit. Underrail's about alpha strikes, disables and gaining control of the battlefield, rather than maintaining equilibrium for a drawn out match. If you've put 9 in CON then face tanking is what you should develop. You want Paranoia for the +5 initiative? When you have 3 DEX? What's the point? That's like giving yourself 10 extra HP when you have 3 CON.

5 initiative would help win initiative contests. My base value of 14 is evenly matched with common enemies, so a 50/50 dice roll would change to a 75/25 dice roll, which isn't bad. Cut down on a few reloads. That and the detection should help with the stupid mines everywhere. Either that or crafting feats at this point.

my stats are like str 3 dex 3 agi 6 con 9 per 3 int 7 wil 12. Psychosis/Mania/Premeditation/Locus of Control. Metathermics/Thought control/Kinetics(whatever) maxed, points spread to lockpicking/hacking/persuasion and crafting skills as needed. I have 25 in pickpocket and mercantile I would really like to have put in stealth, but oh well. 0 in all weapons and dodge/evasion.

As long as I go first I usually win the fight, assuming I can see all enemies and they are close enough together. I don't have cryo ball yet but I think that will help. Usually my fireball is not quite strong enough to kill everyone. My armor blocks about 50 points of bullet damage and most enemies have little trouble punching through that but I can at least survive for a few rounds, if someone hits melee range or has a crossbow I am toast.

I'm using PSI beetle regen vest w/ kevlar, universal PSI headband with crit damage boost, and some shield I looted. Plan to build a better shield soon now that I'm seeing the parts in shops.

 

[ciox]

My only problem with Expedition's clutter is that there are very often so many interactable objects in the same spot that their tooltips overlap into a terrible mess where you can't read what's going on and are liable to miss something. That should happen pretty much... never. But it's a common occurence in Expedition.

 

[Tigranes]

Master theorycrafters here can tell you better than I can on the numbers. My intuition is that 14+5 won't get you very far, and that Paranoia generally isn't a hugely valuable feat. But I can always be wrong. With 3 PER the detection won't do much, either.

OK, so a high CON psion - never went for such a mix. The vest is fine but it won't offer enough in sheer protection - as level 16 you should be able to craft yourself a 1k shield. My general go-to is Low + High + Efficiency. I guess the issue is that it's not built for full tin can (you want psi beetle), but you're too slow, and presumably all the PSI feats meant you didn't stack survivability stuff either. Did you not take Force User? 4-turn force field is godly, though the empowered punch is probably not so great for you so far into the game.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[hell bovine]

My character is high Con (9) but that 25% health hit sucks. I also have enough agility to take Sprint but only 3 dex. I'm planning to take paranoia next level (16) to see if that helps, I don't have the stats for trigger happy and gunslinger seems like a waste of points.

(as an aside I'd note in 3.5E D&D Improved Initiative feat has no pre reqs. Why would you limit initiative feats only to high dex characters who are the least likely to actually need them?)

Decide on one method and build your character for that, instead of trying to go in all directions at the same time. If you want to go the high inititative route, then it needs to be on a character with high dex & agi. If you want to go the resistant tin can route, then it's heavy armor with juggernaut, conditioning etc. Failing all that, there is stealth & initiating combat manually, because you don't need high agility to sneak succesfully. Heck, if you craft the right items, you don't even need high stealth.

As for the D&D comparison, I disagree. If your character has the agility of a turtle, then they shouldn't have the reflexes of a mangoose.

edit:for psi tactics, it's all about mixing spells. E.g locus of control > mass enrage > run away to hide out of sight while they kill each other. For metathermics vs. groups try destabilization, the explode damage is hp-based. Much better than fireball.

 

[Tigranes]

Yeah, mass enrage is just so fucking good, when used right it will win most fights on its own for your character. You can even use force field to funnel people into a tight zone (not by blocking the path completely but by leaving 1 tile corridor), and then a frag grenade + mass enrage = half-dead dudes who stab each other instead of healing up then smashing you in the face.

 

[hell bovine]

A shotgun with 20p shells is also nice for detection, because stray pellets can knock sneaking enemies right out of stealth while they try to jump you. Like those annoying spiders.

On a side note, my expedition experience so far can be summed up as: locusts, locusts, locusts > crabs, crabs, crabs > spiders, spiders, spiders.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Master theorycrafters here can tell you better than I can on the numbers. My intuition is that 14+5 won't get you very far, and that Paranoia generally isn't a hugely valuable feat. But I can always be wrong. With 3 PER the detection won't do much, either.

OK, so a high CON psion - never went for such a mix. The vest is fine but it won't offer enough in sheer protection - as level 16 you should be able to craft yourself a 1k shield. My general go-to is Low + High + Efficiency. I guess the issue is that it's not built for full tin can (you want psi beetle), but you're too slow, and presumably all the PSI feats meant you didn't stack survivability stuff either. Did you not take Force User? 4-turn force field is godly, though the empowered punch is probably not so great for you so far into the game.

I do have force user and the force field is a nice ability to get out of trouble spots sometimes but usually the enemies just heal and stack up for a massive beatdown once it expires. Mania+telekinetic fist one-shots almost everything but the PSI cost is too high on repeat rounds. I don't like enrage because I don't get XP for the kills but it works as a last resort. I don't have some of the PSI skills yet. As for survivability feats I don't recall anything looking useful for a pure PSI person but I'll take recommendations. Stoicism + Conditioning? The bonuses seemed pretty lackluster.

Really though my build seems fine, I'm getting through the game, I just think the overall concept of Underrail's combat isn't completely to my liking. But it's fine.

 

[Jrpgfan]

I wonder when is styg gonna fix the loading screen during launch. It still takes a long ass while for the game to start.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

As for the D&D comparison, I disagree. If your character has the agility of a turtle, then they shouldn't have the reflexes of a mangoose.

People always use realism to justify unbalanced mechanics and balance to justify unrealistic mechanics.

I don't think Underrail is a particularly realistic game, where you can punch someone 10 times in the face in the same time it takes you to fire a handgun once.

 

[Tigranes]

Master theorycrafters here can tell you better than I can on the numbers. My intuition is that 14+5 won't get you very far, and that Paranoia generally isn't a hugely valuable feat. But I can always be wrong. With 3 PER the detection won't do much, either.

OK, so a high CON psion - never went for such a mix. The vest is fine but it won't offer enough in sheer protection - as level 16 you should be able to craft yourself a 1k shield. My general go-to is Low + High + Efficiency. I guess the issue is that it's not built for full tin can (you want psi beetle), but you're too slow, and presumably all the PSI feats meant you didn't stack survivability stuff either. Did you not take Force User? 4-turn force field is godly, though the empowered punch is probably not so great for you so far into the game.

I do have force user and the force field is a nice ability to get out of trouble spots sometimes but usually the enemies just heal and stack up for a massive beatdown once it expires. Mania+telekinetic fist one-shots almost everything but the PSI cost is too high on repeat rounds. I don't like enrage because I don't get XP for the kills but it works as a last resort. I don't have some of the PSI skills yet. As for survivability feats I don't recall anything looking useful for a pure PSI person but I'll take recommendations. Stoicism + Conditioning? The bonuses seemed pretty lackluster.

Really though my build seems fine, I'm getting through the game, I just think the overall concept of Underrail's combat isn't completely to my liking. But it's fine.

Sure, I think it's fine and you don't have to minmax. My point is, as others have pointed out, you seem to be rummaging around for a range of bonuses here and there, but UR's systems really reward someone who picks two or three synergistic strengths and hones them sharp. Don't like it, don't want to do it? That's OK, it's your game.

As for the prereqs, I wouldn't make the realism argument, but I'd say the whole system is built around using skill/attrib prereqs as gateways for feats themed around that skill. And again, because UR is supposed to encourage you to specialise, I think that's fine.