Underrail: The Incline Awakens

[Grampy_Bone]

Master theorycrafters here can tell you better than I can on the numbers. My intuition is that 14+5 won't get you very far, and that Paranoia generally isn't a hugely valuable feat. But I can always be wrong. With 3 PER the detection won't do much, either.

OK, so a high CON psion - never went for such a mix. The vest is fine but it won't offer enough in sheer protection - as level 16 you should be able to craft yourself a 1k shield. My general go-to is Low + High + Efficiency. I guess the issue is that it's not built for full tin can (you want psi beetle), but you're too slow, and presumably all the PSI feats meant you didn't stack survivability stuff either. Did you not take Force User? 4-turn force field is godly, though the empowered punch is probably not so great for you so far into the game.

I do have force user and the force field is a nice ability to get out of trouble spots sometimes but usually the enemies just heal and stack up for a massive beatdown once it expires. Mania+telekinetic fist one-shots almost everything but the PSI cost is too high on repeat rounds. I don't like enrage because I don't get XP for the kills but it works as a last resort. I don't have some of the PSI skills yet. As for survivability feats I don't recall anything looking useful for a pure PSI person but I'll take recommendations. Stoicism + Conditioning? The bonuses seemed pretty lackluster.

Really though my build seems fine, I'm getting through the game, I just think the overall concept of Underrail's combat isn't completely to my liking. But it's fine.

Sure, I think it's fine and you don't have to minmax. My point is, as others have pointed out, you seem to be rummaging around for a range of bonuses here and there, but UR's systems really reward someone who picks two or three synergistic strengths and hones them sharp. Don't like it, don't want to do it? That's OK, it's your game.

As for the prereqs, I wouldn't make the realism argument, but I'd say the whole system is built around using skill/attrib prereqs as gateways for feats themed around that skill. And again, because UR is supposed to encourage you to specialise, I think that's fine.

I guess I don't see how I could have min-maxed more? I'm pure PSI nuker-assault with no guns no stealth no melee no dodge/evasion. I've looked at shoring up some weak spots in the build that have revealed themselves in hindsight but I wouldn't say this is some intent to create a balanced jack of all trades, far from it.

 

[ItsChon]

Have you considered the fact that you're just bad? I haven't had nearly as much trouble as you seem to be having running builds that are far inferior to Psi nuker-assault and AR Tin-Can.

 

[Tigranes]

I mean, I think 9 CON on a psi-nuker while foregoing CON related feats wasn't super optimal, and I think taking Paranoia at this stage is not optimal at all. But I'm not saying your build is total garbage, you say you're having fun & doing fine in most fights so there's no problem.

 

[Blaine]

I disagree with Tigranes' premise that 10 HP is less useful for a low-CON character than a high-CON one. If anything, 10 HP is worth a lot more when you've got a much smaller pool in the first place. You will have to take a hit or two here and there on occasion, no matter what sort of build you're playing.

In general, though, Underrail greatly rewards [insert favorite euphemism for min-maxing]. It rewards min-maxing so richly that an entire ecosystem of min-maxing euphemisms has developed in the fertile soil of this very thread.

Sadly, the min-maxing aspect of Underrail has grown considerably worse now that feats, environmental interaction nodes, and even dialogue tree-based conversational rewards sporting minimal base ability requirements in the double digits have become commonplace. They were a step backward for this game.

I guess I don't see how I could have min-maxed more? I'm pure PSI nuker-assault with no guns no stealth no melee no dodge/evasion. I've looked at shoring up some weak spots in the build that have revealed themselves in hindsight but I wouldn't say this is some intent to create a balanced jack of all trades, far from it.

When it comes to Initiative, shoring up a weakness so that it's mediocre instead of bad isn't going to help you a whole lot. If you can't rely on going first almost all of the time, its value is drastically reduced. That said, a mediocre Initiative will often allow you to act before low-Initiative enemies, so it's not all bad.

More than a few weaknesses CAN be shored up in a usefully gradated fashion, despite what some may believe. However, if you're playing stealth psi, it's usually counterproductive to try to shore up weaknesses. Stealth psi is the utter epitome of a min-maxable glass cannon.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Have you considered the fact that you're just bad? I haven't had nearly as much trouble as you seem to be having running builds that are far inferior to Psi nuker-assault and AR Tin-Can.

I have, actually. But I am the target demo for this game (hardcore Fallout fan) and I've played hundreds of RPGs, so if I'm bad at the game what does that say about it?

In any case it's more like i'm hyper-critical and nitpicky. I'm not completely failing at the game or anything, I'm making solid and steady progress. So far I have not encountered a situation that was totally unwinnable or anything. Other than the mines, I had a perfectly fine time in the junkyard with the acid dogs and mutants, which seems to be a common sticking spot for people. I'm just bitching about certain things that bug me about it.

What I would really like is to have a squad at my command rather than just one person, but ah well. I'm still really enjoying other aspects of the game, like how rewarding the fights are when you do win, the loot, the crafting, the great sense of progress and character growth, and the wonderful level and dungeon design. Seriously, I thought the ventilation ducts were going to be a one-time thing, but they are used to great effect throughout.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

It rewards min-maxing so richly that an entire ecosystem of min-maxing euphemisms has developed in the fertile soil of this very thread.

Here's a question for you, is a melee sword parry/riposte build viable? Would it need stealth, dodge/evasion, or heavy armor?

 

[Blaine]

Here's a question for you, is a melee sword parry/riposte build viable? Would it need stealth, dodge/evasion, or heavy armor?

I know a lot about this game, but swords and shotguns are a major hole in my knowledge, because I've never used them.

I'll say this, though: A weapon whose core mechanic closely resembles the experience of playing a slot machine makes my penis want to retract into my body like the head of a frightened turtle. It's entirely possible to miss 2-3x in a row or more with a 95% THC, which I should note is well within the bounds of normal RNG clustering. Given the sword mechanics, it seems to me you'd have a similar experience every time you hit that 5% miss chance, rather than only during unlucky streaks of several misses in a row as is common for most other builds.

 

[ItsChon]

Here's a question for you, is a melee sword parry/riposte build viable? Would it need stealth, dodge/evasion, or heavy armor?

It is viable and you would use Heavy Armor for sure. Nerd Commando did a video on it where he used Temporal Manipulation as well to compliment things.

 

[Blackmill]

Here's a question for you, is a melee sword parry/riposte build viable? Would it need stealth, dodge/evasion, or heavy armor?

Yes, it very much is. That said, you may need to rely more on daggers and spears for the early- and mid-game.

Light armor is (or rather, becomes) much better. The advantage you have with a swords build is you can easily kill an enemy with just 10 AP which is insanely efficient. It means you can kill a ton of enemies each turn -- but only if you have sufficient movement points.

I cruised through a Dominating playthrough using light armor, stealth, and swords with some knives mixed in.

 

[Damianus_NT]

Underrail has beautiful pixel art and stylish interface, if you can't recognize that - you are retarded.

When I tried to recommend Underrail to some of my friends from the other forum (RPG veterans) it was mostly graphics that turned them off.
It's kinda interesting, because I remember my first impression also oscilating between neutral and bad... but then, when I started actually playing the game, I began to appreciate the visuals more and more. Overall, I do enjoy how the game looks and sounds. An expanded interface functionality (marking items as favourite, better crafting window) and some new sound samples for certain enemies would not hurt though.

I want to ask a lore question. The common opinion here seems to be, that wiping out the natives is (morally) the right thing to do. What are the arguments for doing so? I remember some of their backstory but maybe I'm missing some details? Trying to roleplay as "neutral-good" mercenary, one has to think about the fact that, while not shown in the game, there have to be some children amongst the natives' population. I need some motivation to dominate them all.

After a small break, it's time to finally finish the expansion and the whole game. Can't wait to try PSI and melee builds.

 

[Blaine]

Trying to roleplay as "neutral-good" mercenary, one has to think about the fact that, while not shown in the game, there have to be some children amongst the natives' population. I need some motivation to dominate them all.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with purging the children of the unclean. After all, they're destined to grow up to be unclean themselves.

15 Samuel also said unto Saul, The Lord sent me to anoint thee to be king over His people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the Lord.

2 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.

3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

 

[hell bovine]

I mean, I think 9 CON on a psi-nuker while foregoing CON related feats wasn't super optimal, and I think taking Paranoia at this stage is not optimal at all. But I'm not saying your build is total garbage, you say you're having fun & doing fine in most fights so there's no problem.

Well, 9 con with psychosis looks like the classic survival instincts build, in which case you can forego con feats, because you are running around under 30% health anyway. But that's not a build I'd do without stealth.

 

[Goromorg]

This OST is glorious! Za otchiznu, komvarischi!

 

[ItsChon]

I want to have another go at a throwing build, but can someone tell me, does Spear Throw's damage depend on your melee skill?

 

[Trash Player]

That's how Underrail plays for me. Since every single enemy (more or less) is capable of burning me down from full health to dead in a single turn, I have to win initiative in every fight and make sure every enemy is dead or otherwise unable to attack me every round. Okay. It's certainly doable, but I wouldn't call that "easy" by any definition of difficulty.

That's why with squishy characters like psions people tend to go the sneaky route: if you initiate combat from stealth, you go first. The other two solutions are: high con tin can (doesn't matter if you go last) and high initiative (when testing guns with Patsy I gave her gunslinger, paranoia and trigger happy - she had 40+ to initiative and that was on a low level character).

My character is high Con (9) but that 25% health hit sucks. I also have enough agility to take Sprint but only 3 dex. I'm planning to take paranoia next level (16) to see if that helps, I don't have the stats for trigger happy and gunslinger seems like a waste of points.

(as an aside I'd note in 3.5E D&D Improved Initiative feat has no pre reqs. Why would you limit initiative feats only to high dex characters who are the least likely to actually need them?)

What's your build generally? You want to focus, so that your strengths are laser sharp to take down the enemy before they get a turn to wreck shit. Underrail's about alpha strikes, disables and gaining control of the battlefield, rather than maintaining equilibrium for a drawn out match. If you've put 9 in CON then face tanking is what you should develop. You want Paranoia for the +5 initiative? When you have 3 DEX? What's the point? That's like giving yourself 10 extra HP when you have 3 CON.

5 initiative would help win initiative contests. My base value of 14 is evenly matched with common enemies, so a 50/50 dice roll would change to a 75/25 dice roll, which isn't bad. Cut down on a few reloads. That and the detection should help with the stupid mines everywhere. Either that or crafting feats at this point.

my stats are like str 3 dex 3 agi 6 con 9 per 3 int 7 wil 12. Psychosis/Mania/Premeditation/Locus of Control. Metathermics/Thought control/Kinetics(whatever) maxed, points spread to lockpicking/hacking/persuasion and crafting skills as needed. I have 25 in pickpocket and mercantile I would really like to have put in stealth, but oh well. 0 in all weapons and dodge/evasion.

As long as I go first I usually win the fight, assuming I can see all enemies and they are close enough together. I don't have cryo ball yet but I think that will help. Usually my fireball is not quite strong enough to kill everyone. My armor blocks about 50 points of bullet damage and most enemies have little trouble punching through that but I can at least survive for a few rounds, if someone hits melee range or has a crossbow I am toast.

I'm using PSI beetle regen vest w/ kevlar, universal PSI headband with crit damage boost, and some shield I looted. Plan to build a better shield soon now that I'm seeing the parts in shops.

It seems you are not having any troubles progressing but appreciating the very offence/pre-planning based gameplay. A valid point, that kinda makes every character samey and F9 happy. Or DR stacking, which is another can of worms. Your build also looks like one half of THE BUILD but missing the parts that make it work, namely stealth and SI. It's just an optimised version of yours though, so wouldn't actually change too much of your experiences, hence opinion.

 

[Richard Leaks]

You can also give him to the pirates, wonder what that ending slide looks like.

I think it's actually the best ending for him.

Spoiler

Todd becomes Chad

 

[Rinslin Merwind]

I think every ending can be count as good, as long as Todd isn't decided to change surname on Howard and became producer at Bethesda Softworks. Otherwise world of Underrail, fucked for real, this time.

 

[Tweed]

My ending for Todd was a shell full of hoppershot.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

I mean, I think 9 CON on a psi-nuker while foregoing CON related feats wasn't super optimal, and I think taking Paranoia at this stage is not optimal at all. But I'm not saying your build is total garbage, you say you're having fun & doing fine in most fights so there's no problem.

Well, 9 con with psychosis looks like the classic survival instincts build, in which case you can forego con feats, because you are running around under 30% health anyway. But that's not a build I'd do without stealth.

Yeah survival instincts looked scary, I'm already squishy enough as it is and 30% crit is nice but it's not 100% so it's always a gamble (unless you can push it up north of 80-90%). But it's still an option as is pumping stealth for a few levels and crafting black cloth armor. Hmm.

How does Last Stand work? Combine that with the Hp instead of PSI point feat could be interesting.

 

[Parabalus]

Here's a question for you, is a melee sword parry/riposte build viable? Would it need stealth, dodge/evasion, or heavy armor?

It is viable and you would use Heavy Armor for sure. Nerd Commando did a video on it where he used Temporal Manipulation as well to compliment things.

That's the build I have on my DOMINATING sword guy.

I use rathound leather for the crit, without dodge/evasion. Parry/riposte are pretty bad, to make them serviceable you basically need the pirate leader's sword in the offhand. They would be better on lower difficulties for sure though.

If you run heavy armor you don't have much need for parry/riposte, just skip them, much better feats around, similarly if you have Uncanny.

TM is just OP and should be used regardless of build tbh.

I mean, I think 9 CON on a psi-nuker while foregoing CON related feats wasn't super optimal, and I think taking Paranoia at this stage is not optimal at all. But I'm not saying your build is total garbage, you say you're having fun & doing fine in most fights so there's no problem.

Well, 9 con with psychosis looks like the classic survival instincts build, in which case you can forego con feats, because you are running around under 30% health anyway. But that's not a build I'd do without stealth.

Yeah survival instincts looked scary, I'm already squishy enough as it is and 30% crit is nice but it's not 100% so it's always a gamble (unless you can push it up north of 80-90%). But it's still an option as is pumping stealth for a few levels and crafting black cloth armor. Hmm.

How does Last Stand work? Combine that with the Hp instead of PSI point feat could be interesting.

I ran the SI build recently, and it's basically an early game help. Once you get to Expedition you'll run around with 100% because you have enough damage and there are annoying enemies who bypass shield/armor. And you'll really want a regen vest for convenience.

Last Stand and Hemopsychosis are great. They're even better with TM since you can do various combos with self-Stasis and LTI spam, it's extremely hard to run out of PSI this way.

 

[Goromorg]

Yeah survival instincts looked scary, I'm already squishy enough as it is and 30% crit is nice but it's not 100% so it's always a gamble (unless you can push it up north of 80-90%). But it's still an option as is pumping stealth for a few levels and crafting black cloth armor. Hmm.

How does Last Stand work? Combine that with the Hp instead of PSI point feat could be interesting.

I'm playing this build right now http://underrail.info.tm/build/?HgM...EH2bCh8KIwrd6woriorUC4quGBeKsggHirIMC4rGgBd-_
It's very fun and safe actually - you wander around in stealth with full hp. When big fight is about to start - you equip your anti-rifle kevlar overcoat, turn on your 2k capacity shield emitter, take your combat drugs, activate hemopsychosis - and drop your health below 30%.
Now you have 15% resistance from all damage from aegis, around 20% resistance from stoicism, 15% against mech/cold/fire from conditioning - for the case when some unlucky crit gets through your defence layers.
And if somehow you're about to die - there is morphine shot+last stand combo.

 

[Parabalus]

Yeah survival instincts looked scary, I'm already squishy enough as it is and 30% crit is nice but it's not 100% so it's always a gamble (unless you can push it up north of 80-90%). But it's still an option as is pumping stealth for a few levels and crafting black cloth armor. Hmm.

How does Last Stand work? Combine that with the Hp instead of PSI point feat could be interesting.

I'm playing this build right now http://underrail.info.tm/build/?HgM...EH2bCh8KIwrd6woriorUC4quGBeKsggHirIMC4rGgBd-_
It's very fun and safe actually - you wander around in stealth with full hp. When big fight is about to start - you equip your anti-rifle kevlar overcoat, turn on your 2k capacity shield emitter, take your combat drugs, activate hemopsychosis - and drop your health below 30%.
Now you have 15% resistance from all damage from aegis, around 20% resistance from stoicism, 15% against mech/cold/fire from conditioning - for the case when some unlucky crit gets through your defence layers.
And if somehow you're about to die - there is morphine shot+last stand combo.

This is pretty much the build, you get every RP option and it is one of the strongest combat builds.

Only thing I'd personally change is Mantra for Advanced Psi Empathy, because of the way reductions stack it gets ridiculous. But that's very minor in such a powerful build.

 

[Oreshnik Missile]

>Be me, playing Underrail
>Land on Join Security Headquarters beach, get instagibbed by plasma turret
>Reload, turn on shield, kill plasma turrets
>Enter facility, it makes me take off all my gear, which it stashes somewhere else
>Cool, it's like that time in BG2. Well I guess I'll get it back soon or there'll be some easier than usual fights first.
>walk round corner, instagibbed by plasma turret, reload
>walk round other corner, 6 statues kill me, reload
>manage to get into next area just after camera alerts statues
>kill two statues with electrical psionics, open another gate, kill some spiders by opening and closing a door on the same turn with a Premeditation fireball in between
>open door, see no more spiders,step out, still no spiders
>try to end combat, can't
>oh well, there must be a spider that run a long way while it was scared from the fire
>end my turn and a spider hiding next to the door kills me
>reload and let the statues kill the spiders this time before I kill the statues
>go up the stairs to the halfbroken console in the storage room, press all the buttons, walk down stairs
>die to 10 spiders, reload, only open one room, cast thought control buffs and fire halo and kill all the spiders
>find random garbage in the storage room anyway
>open the storage room that lets you progress further, after reloading each time I see spiders on the surveillance monitors
>head back into the first room using this new passage
>can't use the Security Console because there's 8 statues glaring at me angrily from the other side of a glass window
>oh well, I'll find something eventually, continue through a hole in the wall
>camera doesn't like me, this doesn't bode well

 

[Blaine]

I'm playing this build right now http://underrail.info.tm/build/?HgM...EH2bCh8KIwrd6woriorUC4quGBeKsggHirIMC4rGgBd-_
It's very fun and safe actually - you wander around in stealth with full hp. When big fight is about to start - you equip your anti-rifle kevlar overcoat, turn on your 2k capacity shield emitter, take your combat drugs, activate hemopsychosis - and drop your health below 30%.
Now you have 15% resistance from all damage from aegis, around 20% resistance from stoicism, 15% against mech/cold/fire from conditioning - for the case when some unlucky crit gets through your defence layers.
And if somehow you're about to die - there is morphine shot+last stand combo.

Wew lad, that is some top-tier min-maxing.

It's the type of build Parabalus regards as fairly normal and standard, which (coupled with complete meta knowledge of the game) is why he erroneously believes that Normal is too easy.

 

[Goromorg]

Only thing I'd personally change is Mantra for Advanced Psi Empathy, because of the way reductions stack it gets ridiculous. But that's very minor in such a powerful build.

Do you mean psi cost reductions? AFAIK they stack multiplicatively, i.e. you have psychosis (1.20 multiplier), psi beetle soup (0.85 multiplier) and muffled headband (e.g. 0.8 multiplier).
Resulting psi cost will be 1,2*0,85*0,8*100=81,6%