Underrail: The Incline Awakens

[Ol' Willy]

After learning the game more or less I can say that even Hard is too easy most of the time. Playing as a squishy conlet on DOM I die less when I played the tank on Hard. And like what, I've seen some old thread on Underrail.com where various builds where ranked, and Energy Build was in a poor, bottom tier. I definitely don't feel anything like that.

Pic-related: Carni demise at the Arena. First time he won the initiative and killed me in one turn. Second time I won the initiative and killed him in one turn.

 

[ItsChon]

How gimmicky do you want them? I suggest a psi tranquility Psychokinesis crit build, focusing on Electrokinesis. Crit% comes from specced Psychostatic Electricity. Haven't tried it personally.

This actually sounds dope. You think you could make this work with the unique Electric armor added in expansion?

 

[Sheepherder]

This actually sounds dope. You think you could make this work with the unique Electric armor added in expansion?

A psi beetle tac vest would be better, but it would work. Having no stealth hurts, and it has a 40% armor penalty, but it's doable. Powerful, even.

Ol' Willy That's just the nature of Underrail, or rather Dominating difficulty. Glass cannon builds are superior to tanks. By forgoing any type of passive defenses (armor, dodge/evasion) and by specializing into offense with just a dash of CC, it's possible to out-kill enemies and avoid ever getting hit. Armor is also less effective because there exist enemies who deal damage which ignores armor (mind control psi enemies).

 

[Sykar]

This actually sounds dope. You think you could make this work with the unique Electric armor added in expansion?

A psi beetle tac vest would be better, but it would work. Having no stealth hurts, and it has a 40% armor penalty, but it's doable. Powerful, even.

Ol' Willy That's just the nature of Underrail, or rather Dominating difficulty. Glass cannon builds are superior to tanks. By forgoing any type of passive defenses (armor, dodge/evasion) and by specializing into offense with just a dash of CC, it's possible to out-kill enemies and avoid ever getting hit. Armor is also less effective because there exist enemies who deal damage which ignores armor (mind control psi enemies).

Which is why, in part, Lhynn, Parabalus and Pope Amole II have heavily criticized Dominating difficulty back when it was still in beta.

 

[Sheepherder]

Sykar This imbalance exists on both Normal and Hard, it's just that it's much more noticeable on Dominating due to increased amount of enemies and their higher damage output. It's mostly this way due to how overpowerd stealth is. It enables glass cannon builds to position themselves favorably and deliver devastating alpha strikes, sometimes ending combat in one turn. Together with higher mobility they can abuse enemy AI and map chokepoints.

However, in some fights, namely the Praetorian Warehouse mission and Beach defense, tanks have an easier time. Those maps have few or no chokepoints and enemies don't come in all at once, making it hard to control the battlefield. Armor/HP tanks are viable, but more challenging.

 

[Sykar]

Sykar This imbalance exists on both Normal and Hard, it's just that it's much more noticeable on Dominating due to increased amount of enemies and their higher damage output. It's mostly this way due to how overpowerd stealth is. It enables glass cannon builds to position themselves favorably and deliver devastating alpha strikes, sometimes ending combat in one turn. Together with higher mobility they can abuse enemy AI and map chokepoints.

However, in some fights, namely the Praetorian Warehouse mission and Beach defense, tanks have an easier time. Those maps have few or no chokepoints and enemies don't come in all at once, making it hard to control the battlefield. Armor/HP tanks are viable, but more challenging.

And instead of actually addressing the issue Styg went the lazy route and just bloated the numbers some more making it even more vital to have strong alpha strikes because a horde of enemies can turn almost any character into mincemeat during one turn.

 

[cvv]

Bought the game in the current GOG sale, with the DLC. Didn't know ANYTHING about it, except it's a TB RPG and there's a dedicated subforum on Dex, signifying certain prestige. Then again Dex voted D:OS our GOTY. Twice. But ok.

To make it launch I had to reinstall some obscure Microsoft xml crap but ok. Oh and I had to manually switch off HDR and anti-aliasing. I get it, it's an indie game made by one person, no problem.

About 2 hours in. Char creation - tons of skills, this looks good for build variety. No idea what's viable, probably will have to restart. But ok.

Wait a minute, this...isn't party-based, is it? Aw shit. Well...ok. At least it's TB. Combat is fun, even tho it's single-character, which is by definition inferior. Exploration is great. One of the best. I really like the levelling system, very refreshing. Well, so far. Maybe I'll get tired of it and restart on Classic. Writing is serviceable at best but considering it's apparently just a single-character developer it's way better than the embarrassing currentyear diarrhea from Larian, Obsidian etc.

So far it's looking good. After Wasteland 3 it's the 2nd gaym in my planned post-apo trilogy. Atom is next. Looking fwd to writing up a no-BS comparison afterwards and unleashing the aspie rage of half the Codex on myself.

 

[Ol' Willy]

And instead of actually addressing the issue Styg went the lazy route and just bloated the numbers some more.

I see no problems with that. Tank builds are very close to vanilla Fallout 1 gameplay: Power Armour, Turboplasma Rifle - you stand in the middle of the room, laugh at pathetic attempts to hurt you and melt stuff with eye-shots. Glass cannons require more thinking: prepare the battlefield with traps, think about approach and retreat routes, think of crowd control, prevent enemies from attacking you and move smart.

Basically, tank builds are about defense: you give away the initiative and control, letting enemies attack you on their terms, negating their offensive potential with firepower and armour. Glass canons are all about offense: you are in control, initiative is yours and your job is to drive the combat in the route more favourable to you. For once, the game rewards more busy builds with them being more powerful, and I like that.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

I love tanks

 

[Sheepherder]

And instead of actually addressing the issue Styg went the lazy route and just bloated the numbers some more making it even more vital to have strong alpha strikes because a horde of enemies can turn almost any character into mincemeat during one turn.

No.
Build a tank right and it's unstoppable. Albeit slower to play. Tank builds are not bad by any means. It's just that glass cannons are "optimal" and imo, more fun due to being more mobile.
What "issue" are you even talking about? Tanks having a harder time? Dominating difficulty being too hard?

 

[Sykar]

And instead of actually addressing the issue Styg went the lazy route and just bloated the numbers some more making it even more vital to have strong alpha strikes because a horde of enemies can turn almost any character into mincemeat during one turn.

No.
Build a tank right and it's unstoppable. Albeit slower to play. Tank builds are not bad by any means. It's just that glass cannons are "optimal" and imo, more fun due to being more mobile.
What "issue" are you even talking about? Tanks having a harder time? Dominating difficulty being too hard?

Rofl. Hard. Underrail has little to do with skill. It is all about knowledge and how willing you are to cheese the shit out of it. Dominating is not hard. It is merely obnoxious and makes the game world less believable. Hard would have sufficed if Styg would have bothered to adjust crafted gear down a few notches. That is the real crux of the problem.
Oh and tanks are bad once you get any Lurker with TC on board. Double Bilocation wrecks any tank far harder than anything else.

 

[BinaryForest]

How viable is a full psi build now with the nerfs on the main branch? I've been wanting to do a full-lore run with the necessary Will and Int for the pillars and such, but was waiting for the beta changes to be locked in first. Would I be severely gimping myself by not going with a more hybrid approach?

 

[Ol' Willy]

Oh and tanks are bad once you get any Lurker with TC on board. Double Bilocation wrecks any tank far harder than anything else.

While it's very true, there are few bilocating enemies in the game (discounting Goliaths). Despite the fact that they like to cast Spatial Bullshit on themselves, they die in two bursts or one good grenade.

When I went full Dirlewanger on savages in Expedition, I kept some plasma grenades especially for such occasions. One good throw - and caster is gone.

It's kinda ironic: while some enemies are rendered completely helpless against tanks, some are just too dangerous.

 

[Sheepherder]

And instead of actually addressing the issue Styg went the lazy route and just bloated the numbers some more making it even more vital to have strong alpha strikes because a horde of enemies can turn almost any character into mincemeat during one turn.

No.
Build a tank right and it's unstoppable. Albeit slower to play. Tank builds are not bad by any means. It's just that glass cannons are "optimal" and imo, more fun due to being more mobile.
What "issue" are you even talking about? Tanks having a harder time? Dominating difficulty being too hard?

Rofl. Hard. Underrail has little to do with skill. It is all about knowledge and how willing you are to cheese the shit out of it. Dominating is not hard. It is merely obnoxious and makes the game world less believable. Hard would have sufficed if Styg would have bothered to adjust crafted gear down a few notches. That is the real crux of the problem.
Oh and tanks are bad once you get any Lurker with TC on board. Double Bilocation wrecks any tank far harder than anything else.

The argument that the game is not hard once you know what you are doing is retarded. And in the very next sentence you say that the game is hard because some enemies are hard to deal with. And you really think what's making builds overpowered is crafted gear? That's your take?
fyi stealthy TC enemies wreck shit for everybody. Glass cannons insta-f9 if they miss one, dedicated tanks can at least survive one double bilocation. Or avoid a double bilocation with a molotov or something.

BinaryForest it's fine. Instead of getting all 4 schools of psi, pick two or maybe three. Psi is every way as powerful as it was before. Now, instead of having all of the powers all of the time, you'll pick what you want to be available during battle.

 

[Parabalus]

Sykar This imbalance exists on both Normal and Hard, it's just that it's much more noticeable on Dominating due to increased amount of enemies and their higher damage output. It's mostly this way due to how overpowerd stealth is. It enables glass cannon builds to position themselves favorably and deliver devastating alpha strikes, sometimes ending combat in one turn. Together with higher mobility they can abuse enemy AI and map chokepoints.

However, in some fights, namely the Praetorian Warehouse mission and Beach defense, tanks have an easier time. Those maps have few or no chokepoints and enemies don't come in all at once, making it hard to control the battlefield. Armor/HP tanks are viable, but more challenging.

With most builds it's easiest to sit tight, exploit corners so enemies come to you and AoE them down. This can readily be achieved with noise, and usually you aggro most of the map anyway. Stuff like e.g. native camp or pirate base has you deal with >30 enemies, but is easy since they group up - FF nerf should tone this down a bit.

Stealth is overpowered because it allows you to split the above into chunks manageable through 'normal' gameplay.

Glass cannons require more thinking: prepare the battlefield with traps, think about approach and retreat routes, think of crowd control, prevent enemies from attacking you and move smart.

If you have to spam consumables the build you're using is probably weak.

 

[Stavrophore]

If you have to spam consumables the build you're using is probably weak.

Consumables? Lol, its normal to use medicines, flashbangs, molotovs, snares, and other tools at your disposal and effectively incorporate it in your build, or even build a char around these. There's no build at dominating that can cut through just using one ability, or handful of them, without consumables.

 

[Ol' Willy]

If you have to spam consumables the build you're using is probably weak.

Very strange statement.

Placing a few traps to block some melee guys from killing me in one turn counts as spam?
Throwing Flashbang to win some time and use Execute - spam?
Throwing EMP at shield user is spam?
Taser is spam?

I don't use food and rarely use drugs, though.

 

[Ghulgothas]

Finished Expedition. The Black Sea is awash in the blood of pirates and natives alike, the main game will soon follow.

Now, what do I need to tap into all the checks and story beats my apsychic soldier could not witness?

10 Will, nothing less?

 

[hell bovine]

Finished Expedition. The Black Sea is awash in the blood of pirates and natives alike, the main game will soon follow.

Now, what do I need to tap into all the checks and story beats my apsychic soldier could not witness?

10 Will, nothing less?

Short answer: who knows, because the devs keep patching the requirements.

Longer answer: at UR forums someone posted a 12 will check. There are also some skill checks, notably thought control, which gets you extra on silent isle and with faceless mind readers. I'm not sure if the last faceless encounter allows for mind reading if they are hostile, so to keep safe you could refrain from killing them (through the game, because there is a counter). Basically: max will, 10 intelligence and tranquility thought control plus something else for the mind immune critters (robots basically) should get you the most. If you are not running the psi update yet, make that max thought control plus all other schools at 70 (or was that oculus check 75?...).

 

[Sheepherder]

This was hard. Unarmed build (no fist weapons) vs. the 4 nagas on Dominating.
Don't have stasis yet. Can kill 1 naga per Expose Weakness. After that have to rotate around the map, breaking LoS and throwing EMPs, while waiting for Adrenaline to go off cooldown. Restealthed once too.
Nagas have 80% mechanical damage resistance. Unarmed incurs 140% DR/DT, so Nagas have effectively 95% DR. Can't damage them without EW at all.

 

[Trash Player]

If you are keen on getting a Tampered feat, get Electricity instead, to help you against Mind Controllers.

While TC and TM damages are shown as electrical and energy respectively, they are not actually reduced by DT/DR. Mental damage is only resisted by resolve. Unless damage reduction works in its mysterious way, this feat more likely than not doesn't help in this case.

 

[Sheepherder]

Damage reduction does work in mysterious way. I know for a fact that morphine and aegis reduce the damage of Neural Overload and Bilocation. I imagine stoicism and Tampered: Electricity do too, as they add damage reduction.
There's actually a 100% damage reduction tank build, which achieves virtual immortality for 2 or 3 turns with morphine. Can deal decent damage too.

 

[hell bovine]

Damage reduction does work in mysterious way. I know for a fact that morphine and aegis reduce the damage of Neural Overload and Bilocation. I imagine stoicism and Tampered: Electricity do too, as they add damage reduction.

While NO damage shows as electricity in the log, it's not the same as electricity from other sources. I recall Styg (?) posted an explanation somewhere, which was basically: psi magic. It shouldn't get reduced by electricity reduction, but should by "all damage" reduction.

 

[Sheepherder]

Damage reduction does work in mysterious way. I know for a fact that morphine and aegis reduce the damage of Neural Overload and Bilocation. I imagine stoicism and Tampered: Electricity do too, as they add damage reduction.

While NO damage shows as electricity in the log, it's not the same as electricity from other sources. I recall Styg (?) posted an explanation somewhere, which was basically: psi magic. It shouldn't get reduced by electricity reduction, but should by "all damage" reduction.

Not exactly. In the Combat Stats window, in the Defenses tab, under the Resistances, you can see three numbers for each damage type. First two are damage resistance/threshold, and the number in the brackets is damage reduction (the lower, the better). If a feat, a piece of gear or a consumable modifies this number, it will also work against Neural Overload and alike. Tempered does reduce it to 70% from 100%, so it'll work against NO.

Continuing with the unarmed run, I'm at lvl26 and fought Fort Apogee. Surprisingly, attacking a military installation of a major faction head on, is easier than fighting the crustaceans of Expedition. Crabs and robots (mostly servant robots) are the bane of unarmed. Because I have only ~50% crit chance, it can take me anywhere between 16 to 50 AP to kill a metal armor human. The psi crabs are impervious to my damage, unless I use EW.
Also, no way to generate bleeding wounds for Taste of Blood, so I use the Free Drone nail bombs. A single bomb, together with 4ap attacks, means that I can get 10 stacks of Taste for Blood in one turn. Together with high mobility and damage output, it's easy to keep the 10 stacks active throughout the fight. If I do lose them, I can regenerate them very quickly.

Here's Fort Apogee. Made a few mistakes, but otherwise it was very smooth for this build.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Sheepherder how about a no-PSI build for a change?