Underrail: The Incline Awakens

[Ol' Willy]

Still a difference of 220% critical damage.

I see. But still, it's a question of "crit more" or "crit heavier". With SI, of course speccing CP would be the optimal choice, but I played as a conlet. And I really needed these crits because base damage is crap. Bladelings and Shrooms were pain exactly because of this.

 

[Sheepherder]

Still a difference of 220% critical damage.

I see. But still, it's a question of "crit more" or "crit heavier". With SI, of course speccing CP would be the optimal choice, but I played as a conlet. And I really needed these crits because base damage is crap. Bladelings and Shrooms were pain exactly because of this.

Even without SI, a 69% crit chance (6+7+15+5+10+7+19) with 760% crit damage is still better than 79% crit chance with 540% crit damage.
A ~42% increase of critical damage is better than ~15% more crits. Factor in that you have crits on demand (Aimed Shot) and that the crit damage will also increase shock pistol AoE.

It's a bit hard to say because I do not know how exactly the damage bonus from High Technicalities stacks with other damage modifiers. But I think CP is still better. Not that they are mutually exclusive. Crit damage is very good because it's multiplicative with everything. And at 16 INT the 5 spec points in High Technicalities would get an extra 22% to the 88% damage modifier.

That's what I'm confused about. The wiki states it's multiplicative, but how is the calculation done in practice?

You'd need to make a test char and shoot Gorsky a whole bunch to determine that.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Even without SI, a 69% crit chance (6+7+15+5+10+7+19) with 760% crit damage is still better than 79% crit chance with 540% crit damage.
A ~42% increase of critical damage is better than ~15% more crits. Factor in that you have crits on demand (Aimed Shot) and that the crit damage will also increase shock pistol AoE.

Man, 540 plus other additives is already overkill, few enemies in the game were able to survive my crits. Magnar was oneshotted, Carnifex died from two shots, Tchort within two turns. Most of Arena gladiators were oneshotted as well.

 

[ciox]

Well, since my savegame is gone, and I don't want to go through the Throwing Knives pain again, what's a general 'strong' Dominating build?
Nothing specific, just an idea like "Chemical Pistols" or "Hammer Wizard" is enough.
Anything where I am not relying on visiting all the merchants every hour to get more grenade materials would be fine.

Psychosis psi is still the No. 1 build.
Crit ARs are the most powerful ranged weapons. Up to 4 bursts per turn, 100% crit chance, an "Increase damage taken" multiplier, absurd damage. Combat ends on the alpha strike turn. Crit burst shotties are a close second.
Crit swords are the most powerful melee weapons. Struggle with high DR/DT robots, but not as much as other melee. Max DEX knives overtake them at the veeeery endgame because missed flurries can fuck up the damage output of swords, but they're better for the most part of the game.

How'd you get 100% crit chance on an AR build? Even on a pistol build it's a huge pain, and you have Steadfast Aim there.

Assuming hornet frame.
5% base + 7% recklessness + 30% Survival Instincts + 15% Focus Stim + 5% Hardcore Chips + 7% Scrutinous + 10% Infused Rathoud Leather Armor + 20% Seeker goggles = 99%
Infused rat can get to 11% with save scumming, but 10% is easy. 20% seeker goggles need 164q, unlikely to get that, so let's say +18% realistically.
So 100% if lucky, 97% normally.
Also Body Horror +3% against humans.

Ah should have known it was SI, never used that because of the CON 9 requirement, also seems a bit of a bother since you can't just set your health to 30% whenever you'd like to.
I think it could be more fun to reach 100% with firearm pistols and Steadfast Aim, no heavy conditionals like SI or Ambush required, just having to use the right gun like the Magnum or Deagle.

 

[Sheepherder]

Ah should have known it was SI, never used that because of the CON 9 requirement, also seems a bit of a bother since you can't just set your health to 30% whenever you'd like to.
I think it could be more fun to reach 100% with firearm pistols and Steadfast Aim, no heavy conditionals like SI or Ambush required, just having to use the right gun like the Magnum or Deagle.

SI is something you activate manually and then spend the rest of the game with sub 30% HP. Enemies can't hit you if they're dead.

 

[Trash Player]

Still a difference of 220% critical damage.

I see. But still, it's a question of "crit more" or "crit heavier". With SI, of course speccing CP would be the optimal choice, but I played as a conlet. And I really needed these crits because base damage is crap. Bladelings and Shrooms were pain exactly because of this.

Wait, you haven't figured out they are immue to crits? And dealt with them by plinking them?

Edit: I failed to read. Nevermind.

 

[hell bovine]

You'd need to make a test char and shoot Gorsky a whole bunch to determine that.

So now my character plinked a few times at Gorsky and it seems like the high technicalities bonus is multiplicative with the guns skill bonus, and critical bonus gets applied afterwards.
Set up: low quality laser pistol with average damage 14. The actual average damage dealt to Gorsky was 31, with a 100% critical bonus doubled for 62. Guns skill is bonus for this character according to wiki (no idea if the wiki is right here) should be a ca. 1.47 multiplier, high technicalities at 11 int should be 1.48, which seems to be about right: 14x1.47x1.48 is 30.5.

Someone more advanced at math can do the comparison for specialization points vs. critical power. Though technically you can get both if you play on classic (high technicalities is only 5 points), since reaching max level is not a problem.

 

[Ol' Willy]

So, for a change I started full wizard run. Went Psychosis route, but somewhere along the way I realized the critical mistake I made: while distributing stat points, I specced W and INT, as necessary, with leftovers put into AG - for stealth, MP and stuff. But damage output is low, critical chance is not high and 3 CON means no Survival Instincts.

Question to more experienced wizard players: so, the damage will catch up or the build is crippled? I calculated that I will be able to raise critical chance up to 70%, but this will come late in the game and there's a lot of stuff to do earlier.

 

[ciox]

So, for a change I started full wizard run. Went Psychosis route, but somewhere along the way I realized the critical mistake I made: while distributing stat points, I specced W and INT, as necessary, with leftovers put into AG - for stealth, MP and stuff. But damage output is low, critical chance is not high and 3 CON means no Survival Instincts.

Question to more experienced wizard players: so, the damage will catch up or the build is crippled? I calculated that I will be able to raise critical chance up to 70%, but this will come late in the game and there's a lot of stuff to do earlier.

You can't raise psi critical chance with stats, you will rely on Psionic Mania and a good crafted headband to get crits.

 

[Trash Player]

It isn't too bad with psimania. Gimped psi build is still very strong.

 

[Parabalus]

So, for a change I started full wizard run. Went Psychosis route, but somewhere along the way I realized the critical mistake I made: while distributing stat points, I specced W and INT, as necessary, with leftovers put into AG - for stealth, MP and stuff. But damage output is low, critical chance is not high and 3 CON means no Survival Instincts.

Question to more experienced wizard players: so, the damage will catch up or the build is crippled? I calculated that I will be able to raise critical chance up to 70%, but this will come late in the game and there's a lot of stuff to do earlier.

SI is most useful early game, later on you won't miss it - after >20 lvl you'd not even bother with it.

 

[hell bovine]

So, for a change I started full wizard run. Went Psychosis route, but somewhere along the way I realized the critical mistake I made: while distributing stat points, I specced W and INT, as necessary, with leftovers put into AG - for stealth, MP and stuff. But damage output is low, critical chance is not high and 3 CON means no Survival Instincts.

Question to more experienced wizard players: so, the damage will catch up or the build is crippled? I calculated that I will be able to raise critical chance up to 70%, but this will come late in the game and there's a lot of stuff to do earlier.

SI is most useful early game, later on you won't miss it - after >20 lvl you'd not even bother with it.

Agreed, my psychosis wizard never bothered with SI mid-game and later. Once you get past mutant depot, you can make do with just one casting of mania. Get creative with tnt and bear traps, and on most maps you'll be able to lure all enemies for one big explosion.

Small tip: play it friendly with pirates in the expedition. Katya has a great choice of drug ingredients for sale, including for trance.

 

[Ol' Willy]

That's reassuring. But pray tell me, before The Big Nerf:

- there was no innervation window, allowing you to use any spell at any time?
- no psi-reserves thing, allowing for free mana regeneration and unlimited use of Psi-boosters?

And you people didn't see the nerf coming?

 

[Jezal_k23]

To be fair, it took A VERY LONG TIME to come.

 

[Ghulgothas]

Does Locus of Control gel well with Psychosis/Psionic Mania? I'm trying plot out how to get the psi-side of my Psientist build more up to snuff and I'm wondering how it would play with some of the other schools.

EDIT: Nevermind remembered it only works with Thought Control.

What's more fun to play with, Metathermics or Psychokinetics?

 

[hell bovine]

And you people didn't see the nerf coming?

After that big announcement I was expecting more changes to abilities that would give the enemies a standing chance in combat, like with force field. It's why psi is so overpowered. More magic potions won't change that.

 

[Parabalus]

That's reassuring. But pray tell me, before The Big Nerf:

- there was no innervation window, allowing you to use any spell at any time?
- no psi-reserves thing, allowing for free mana regeneration and unlimited use of Psi-boosters?

And you people didn't see the nerf coming?

People have been calling for wizard nerfs since release. He nerfed everything but it, while it was the worst offender.

Tbh I don't think the changes will hit PSI too hard, but they will make it much more boring.

Does Locus of Control gel well with Psychosis/Psionic Mania? I'm trying plot out how to get the psi-side of my Psientist build more up to snuff and I'm wondering how it would play with some of the other schools.

EDIT: Nevermind remembered it only works with Thought Control.

It's worth getting even if you never cast a TC ability.

 

[ciox]

That's reassuring. But pray tell me, before The Big Nerf:

- there was no innervation window, allowing you to use any spell at any time?
- no psi-reserves thing, allowing for free mana regeneration and unlimited use of Psi-boosters?

And you people didn't see the nerf coming?

Psi was less overpowered before Expedition added Temporal Manipulation, new items, new feats and specialization.
It didn't urgently need nerfs unless you were a minmaxer, and if you were you could break the game with traps, assault rifles, fist weapons... whatever. Fist and rifles were also notorious for requiring significantly less oversight than psi, leading more players to main them.

Basically you would just run out of psi and the booster would be on cooldown, the most common average player complaint regarding psi. So either you had created a good build with fallbacks that could handle enemies at 0 psi, or you would suffer. Again, provided you were not a minmaxer freak that would break the game anyway with a different build.

 

[ciox]

I would have liked to have seen the vintage psi system in action tbh.

The way it worked was
- specializing in all schools at once was made difficult by each school having a dedicated base stat rather than just Will https://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Wisdom
- psi did not regenerate naturally, you would have to find psi boosters to cast just like System Shock 2, possibly with the option of getting psi directly from shrooms with the Shroomhead feat https://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Shroomhead
- psi boosters worked differently, giving less psi immediately on use, then some more psi over time

These things were reworked to make the psi system cleaner and more user friendly, but they also made psi stronger. Unfortunately this set up a pretty complex and irritating nerf for psi much later.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[epeli]

I would have liked to have seen the vintage psi system in action tbh.

The way it worked was
- specializing in all schools at once was made difficult by each school having a dedicated base stat rather than just Will https://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Wisdom
- psi did not regenerate naturally, you would have to find psi boosters to cast just like System Shock 2, possibly with the option of getting psi directly from shrooms with the Shroomhead feat https://www.underrail.com/wiki/index.php?title=Shroomhead
- psi boosters worked differently, giving less psi immediately on use, then some more psi over time

These things were reworked to make the psi system cleaner and more user friendly, but they also made psi stronger. Unfortunately this set up a pretty complex and irritating nerf for psi much later.

You might be able to find an ancient alpha version or demo somewhere if you really want to give the old psi system a go. Alpha version 0.1.13 was the last with old psi system. But you won't find a psi system quite like you described.

The first playable iteration of psi system was stronger and less fun than the regen system. Wisdom and Charisma were already cut back then, so psi already had the problem that it only needed one base ability for everything. Psi didn't regenerate, but instead your psi pool scaled from Will. It was so huge that you could never run out of psi in a fight. Psi cost didn't matter at all when choosing what to invoke and psi boosters were just cheap goldsinks that you pop between fights - or you could just abuse shroomhead and fight with free 40% psi pool, it was often enough. Psi abilities also generally had longer ranges, to the point where it was always enough and you never had to worry about your movement. Styg tweaked the ranges a bit after the move to regen-based psi and that gave the psi abilities a bit more character - cryokinesis would be the sniper ability, tk punch would be close to melee punching, and so forth.

The reasons for those changes were a bit different. I can't say for sure what was going on during pre-alpha, but it seems to me that the removal of Charisma and Wisdom was mainly motivated by lack of uses for social stats in a combat-heavy game, not so much to streamline psi. The regen system was brought back (yes, back) to make psi costs meaningful; this both nerfed psi and nade it more interesting to play. Shroomhead got cut because it just didn't work with regen and it never worked well in the first place. It only encouraged degenerate gameplay like backtracking to shrooms after every fight.

Short history of psi:
2009-2012: Internal pre-alpha. Psi had 3 stats and regen. In hindsight, getting rid of 2 psi stats was a huge mistake. But it was done in very early development stage, the stat system back then was quite different.
2013-2014: Early public alpha. Will only, no regen, huge psi pool.
2015-2020: Late alpha to Underrail 1.2. The psi regen system most underrailers know. In hindsight, a long-term psi resource should've been added along with this system.
2020+: Vancian cave wizards.

 

[Jasede]

Started a new run, after I lost my 130+ hour savegame. (F)
https://underrail.info/build/?HgMMA...AeAEABFygWMB4zwppLUylaJhHCtMKkTuKnvgritJQF378

It's a homebrew energy weapons run where I didn't look up any guides for help (so the breakpoints aren't exact or anything, and the 12 Dex 11 Perception and 13 Intelligence probably are a bit unorthodox).
But I think it should beat the game just fine on Dom, especially using classic XP.

The reasoning for 12 Dex was that with Gunslinger, this should allow me to fire a laser pistol 4 times or a plasma pistol two times (6/3 with the buff consumable) and is a lesser investment than 15 to shoot the laser 5 times --- provided the breakpoints I saw in some thread from 2014 are still correct for that.
11 Perception is just for that Expedition Scrutinous feat, and 13 Intelligence is basically just for the lulz; apparently it doesn't make a huge difference whether you level Perception or Intelligence when it comes to damage using High Technicalities, so I might as well level Intelligence for fun so I 100% can craft anything I desire without spending many skill points.

I didn't think too much about the feats. Is Gun Nut a must? And I heard Execute isn't terribly useful but I thought it'd be fun, especially if it works against EMP'd robots.

 

[Sheepherder]

Started a new run, after I lost my 130+ hour savegame. (F)
https://underrail.info/build/?HgMMA...AeAEABFygWMB4zwppLUylaJhHCtMKkTuKnvgritJQF378

It's a homebrew energy weapons run where I didn't look up any guides for help (so the breakpoints aren't exact or anything, and the 12 Dex 11 Perception and 13 Intelligence probably are a bit unorthodox).
But I think it should beat the game just fine on Dom, especially using classic XP.

The reasoning for 12 Dex was that with Gunslinger, this should allow me to fire a laser pistol 4 times or a plasma pistol two times (6/3 with the buff consumable) and is a lesser investment than 15 to shoot the laser 5 times --- provided the breakpoints I saw in some thread from 2014 are still correct for that.
11 Perception is just for that Expedition Scrutinous feat, and 13 Intelligence is basically just for the lulz; apparently it doesn't make a huge difference whether you level Perception or Intelligence when it comes to damage using High Technicalities, so I might as well level Intelligence for fun so I 100% can craft anything I desire without spending many skill points.

I didn't think too much about the feats. Is Gun Nut a must? And I heard Execute isn't terribly useful but I thought it'd be fun, especially if it works against EMP'd robots.

Gunslinger and Gun Nut don't work with e. pistols.

 

[Jasede]

What, really? Great, two more feats.
Picked Recklessness and Pack Rathound.

 

[Sheepherder]

Yup, and Execute will not work on EMP'd robots. Only Cryostasis enables Execute on robots, meaning that Dreadnoughts and Nagas cannot be executed.
Also, get Recklessness. Point Shot is also good. Sharpshooter is good, but you'll be moving a lot, so it'll function as alpha strike only feat, so you can put it off for later. Get Power Management earlier, it'll cut down on the AP you spend on reloading. Get the other e. pistol feats earlier as well, they help a lot.