Underrail: The Incline Awakens

[Trashos]

Found/bought shields have also been buffed - it's not that uncommon to find efficent shields with around 800 capacity now.

~1000 in the Coretech shop (highest tier unlocked, multiple visits required, but I find one like that in every playthrough -best one was 1100)
I do not think I have been that lucky with looted shields. I think ~500 Capacity is the best I have looted.

 

[Jason Liang]

Which skills to take and not take should be pretty obvious almost immediately (based on your stats focus), and the game gives you an extremely generous amount of skill points.

It's feat selection (and order) that has traps and gems.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

Even if you do your own research, you will likely feel that you are wasting your time on normal and restart on higher diff first few hours in. Unless you go completely blind, like not reading feats in advance and plan stats ahead of time i guess?

This is a bunch of bullshit. You can just read what the stats do, play for a bit, restart as is tradition, and play the fucking game. Research? Difficulty fiddling? None needed! Amazing!

 

[Sykar]

In reality the top craftsmen would NOT be of the adventuring type. Being a master craftsman at the pinnacle of what human hands and minds can achieve requires CONSTANT practice in the workshop with hardly any time to dick around high on mushroom bew. As the famous basketball proverb goes, those who stop improving have stopped being good.
There is absolutely NO argument for not having master craftsmen in the game that can for exorbitant prices and a waiting time make you top notch gear for your build. In such a situation the crafting skills would still be valuable to save money but they would not be the be all end all requirement for DOMINATING. Even on hard the lack of crafting is VERY noticable.

This is not true for a lot of what can be considered "crafting" and there are exceptions. If we consider something like modern firearms, a lot of the most influential inventors were also good shooters because it takes a good shooter to know what works and what doesn't. Jerry Miculek for example hold various world records and has also invented several firearm modifications. It doesn't take a lifetime of practice to make a rifle grip, it takes a lifetime of shooting to know what makes a grip good. Kalashnikov had no formal engineering education and did not spent most of his life as a firearm designer prior to the AK. Though Underrail doesn't model that either since there's no relation between combat and crafting skills.

You are missing the point. Yes sure maybe a few people can get enough skill at some point be good enough at both but you are not DOING both at the same time. Furthermore there is a difference between someone who learns shooting, something that is not particularly dangerous or strenuous, and someone ADVENTURING for extented periods in a post apocalyptic world full of terrible dangers and horrors trying to prevent a major catastrophe. Coming up, designing, testing and improving the design takes weeks if not months maybe even years of dedicatated crafting, not 10 seconds watching a bar to go from 0 to 100%. You are NOT running around all over the place doing most extreme missions AND craft all this masterful stuff which need multiple fields of science and engineering to accomplish while doing these designs, anyone who thinks that this is not outlandish is living in lala land. Even just mastering ONE field of science and engineering takes years of continuous dedication. Oh and before you get any ideas, I am aware that cRPGs do not have to be 100% realistic, just realistic enough in sufficient amount of areas to not completely break suspension of disbelief. Overall Underrail does a decent enough job at that but crafting is for sure not one of those areas.
Of course my main criticism is not really adressed by this since there is NO justification for there not be other master craftsmen in the world who are as good if not better than you, zero zilch nada.

 

[ciox]

I mean Underrail does simulate that to some degree, if you invest in Intelligence you will craft better things sooner, but be a weaker fighter.
It's just that the balance is skewed towards you eventually crafting awesome things even without heavy initial investment, because skill points and other bonuses will slowly add up even for a very stupid character.
This freedom makes the game better in the end, the fact that you don't encounter too many hard caps like "must be level X to use" or "must have intelligence Y to cast" in the game, allowing you to mix specializations, is part of why people have so much fun with it.

 

[Trashos]

So, it is indeed possible that neither Coral nor Booth are in the game. 2nd playthrough where this is happening to me. Too bad, because I restart the game until Coral is absent (from SGS docks) in hope that Booth will be present in Core City.

There is a new... place for Ghostface to be found as random loot. New at least for me. I had never seen it there before, but lately I find it often. I will let you discover it for yourselves, it is not hidden.

 

[Blaine]

I'd say stealth is stronger than crafting - a build with stealth but no crafting would be overall stronger than the other way around.

I wholly disagree. AR tin can with crafting skills is absurdly strong, even after the ver. 1.0.4 invention of the "unconditional special attack," transparently intended solely to nerf AR burst attacks (which was needed, as the damage was insane). Stealth with crafting is just as strong, in very different ways. Both have their weaknesses.

Stealth without crafting would be less strong than either. In my latest playthrough, I very clearly remember that crafting specific fine-tuned SMGs with crafting-maximized damage and precise AP cost thresholds and tradeoffs took my build not only to the next level, but beyond. Good luck buying the perfect complementary gear for your character sheet plan without crafting skills—you'll never find it. The game hasn't changed enough in six months (or since pre-release for that matter) for this to have altered substantially.

Found/bought shields have also been buffed - it's not that uncommon to find efficent shields with around 800 capacity now.

Less than half the capacity, and not as efficient nor its frequency thresholds as high—the crafted one therefore being about three times better. You're right though, that's still a step up from crafted being five times better.

I mentioned previously that the gap between crafted and bought/looted gear has narrowed a bit as the game's been updated—but at the same time, the relative investment into crafting skills needed to hit keystone thresholds has been reduced by an increased level cap, crafting benches, and hypercerebrix (I personally never spammed pre-nerf Junkyard Surprise to buff crafting, that clearly verges into exploit territory).

So yes, found/bought gear isn't complete rubbish now, but the investment needed to craft supergear is overall lower than it once was pre-expansion.

That's not to mention several unique items that are strictly superior to crafted gear or at least provide what crafting cannot - CAU armor, biohazard boots, vathosphore armor, tesla suit, spec ops helmet, trapper hat, red dragon, Balor's hammer, XAL, etc.

That stuff is all well and good, but may require meta knowledge to plan a build around (Balor's Hammer being the prime example), be entirely missed during a playthrough (Spec Ops helmet, which is a stealth-based item you'll ironically only see if you bungle and alert the base), be acquired near the end of progression, are highly specific gimmicks, etc.

I have noticed that more unique items have been added in the latest update and others have been tweaked. That really doesn't alter the overall crafting power dynamic, though.

 

[Tygrende]

I wholly disagree. AR tin can with crafting skills is absurdly strong, even after the ver. 1.0.4 invention of the "unconditional special attack," transparently intended solely to nerf AR burst attacks (which was needed, as the damage was insane). Stealth with crafting is just as strong, in very different ways. Both have their weaknesses.

Stealth without crafting would be less strong than either. In my latest playthrough, I very clearly remember that crafting specific fine-tuned SMGs with crafting-maximized damage and precise AP cost thresholds and tradeoffs took my build not only to the next level, but beyond. Good luck buying the perfect complementary gear for your character sheet plan without crafting skills—you'll never find it. The game hasn't changed enough in six months (or since pre-release for that matter) for this to have altered substantially.

The ability to start combat on your own terms, the AP/MP boost from contraction, cooldown reductions from limited temporal increment and the ability to essentially gain an extra free turn (with all the AP bonuses and buffs included) with stasis is stronger than slightly lower AP cost and 2 more shots in a burst. Not to say the latter is not strong because it is, but it's nothing more than a DPS increase, which has nothing on the sheer tactical utility of stealth alone. No crafting builds can also take an advantage of unique guns, which, while inferior to crafted guns, make the difference smaller. I'd rather have an SMG build using uniques than can stealth rather than the other way around. ARs and SMGs already have crazy damage outputs, they will notice the damage decrease less than having no ability to turn invisble.

Tanking is situationally better than stealth, but all in all a build with stealth has a major advantage through the whole game over a build that does not. A lot of tanking is done with non-crafted gear anyways - cans should not leave home without their tesla suit and CAU armor.

Crafting is still up there as one of the strongest things the player can and should invest in, but it's not the strongest one anymore. The gap between found/looted stuff is not as big as it used to be, both stealth and temporal manipulation are a much bigger no-brainer investment that makes every build an order of magnitude stronger. Except pure psi - ironically, it doesn't benefit from TM as much.

 

[Blaine]

I'll give you that—I haven't run a tank since before those armor suits were added. Since I played Stealth Spec Ops SMG last time (and spear riot armor guy before that), I'm about due for a tin can playthrough.

I despise Temporal Manipulation and will never touch it. Not only is it clearly contextually overpowered—as evidenced by its a la carte inclusion in so many meme builds that often have nothing else to do with psionics—but in a titanic act of irony, it was used as the excuse to nerf the rest of the psi skills.

The psi skill nerf was odious in two ways: 1.) it's mechanically obnoxious and introduces annoying micromanagement, and 2.) it makes psi powers feel (and function) less like futuristic mental powers and more like Vancian magic spells from medieval fantasy games.

I hate it, and anyone who defends it is an asshole. I can give Styg a pass because, as the creator, he's way too close to his own creation to judge it properly, in much the same way that it's inadvisable for someone to copy edit his own novel. The rest of you have no excuse and are just terrible people.

 

[Sykar]

I'll give you that—I haven't run a tank since before those armor suits were added. Since I played Stealth Spec Ops SMG last time (and spear riot armor guy before that), I'm about due for a tin can playthrough.

I despise Temporal Manipulation and will never touch it. Not only is it clearly contextually overpowered—as evidenced by its a la carte inclusion in so many meme builds that often have nothing else to do with psionics—but in a titanic act of irony, it was used as the excuse to nerf the rest of the psi skills.

The psi skill nerf was odious in two ways: 1.) it's mechanically obnoxious and introduces annoying micromanagement, and 2.) it makes psi powers feel (and function) less like futuristic mental powers and more like Vancian magic spells from medieval fantasy games.

I hate it, and anyone who defends it is an asshole. I can give Styg a pass because, as the creator, he's way too close to his own creation to judge it properly, in much the same way that it's inadvisable for someone to copy edit his own novel. The rest of you have no excuse and are just terrible people.

To be fair it is not even a good Vancian system, if I had to make a comparison I would compare this version to a castrated and gutted 4th ED D&D and this version was a massive compared to ANY of the other editions and was hated by most for good reason. It also did not really change anything of real substance apart from pure PSI but added lots of boring, idiotic and utterly uneccessary tedium.

 

[Trashos]

s evidenced by its a la carte inclusion in so many meme builds that often have nothing else to do with psionics

I mean, that's most of the point. TM is basically psi for non-psionics.
I love it myself. I think the game plays much better with it.

 

[Parabalus]

Skill points are tight for many builds if you take all the needed (all checks) social skills.

 

[jackofshadows]

The legacy build is there, why the fuck do you need to bring the psi nerf up yet again?

 

[Sykar]

The legacy build is there, why the fuck do you need to bring the psi nerf up yet again?

The legacy has none of the newer content which is not insubstantial.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

The fact that the pre-release thread started in August of 2010, 11 years ago, and we're still going on about it, shows how awesome this game is and how dedicated a developer Styg and co. really are.

You bitches are just bitches.

 

[Tygrende]

 

[Sykar]

The fact that the pre-release thread started in August of 2010, 11 years ago, and we're still going on about it, shows how awesome this game is and how dedicated a developer Styg and co. really are.

You bitches are just bitches.

People liking a game that was changed for the worse and fans critizising for it, shocker.

 

[Spark Mandriller]

I'm okay with the innervation nerf but the barrel fires are what get me. Like half the humans in the game now have their own fire so they get huge resistances to cryokinesis/orb for free for no other reason than fuck metathermics. I just wanted to freeze things.

 

[Ol' Willy]

This is not true for a lot of what can be considered "crafting" and there are exceptions. If we consider something like modern firearms, a lot of the most influential inventors were also good shooters because it takes a good shooter to know what works and what doesn't. Jerry Miculek for example hold various world records and has also invented several firearm modifications. It doesn't take a lifetime of practice to make a rifle grip, it takes a lifetime of shooting to know what makes a grip good. Kalashnikov had no formal engineering education and did not spent most of his life as a firearm designer prior to the AK. Though Underrail doesn't model that either since there's no relation between combat and crafting skills.

On January 1, 1982, when Barrett was photographing a river patrol gunboat on the Stones River near Nashville, Tennessee, he created an award-winning picture that made him start thinking about the .50 caliber cartridge because of two Browning machine guns mounted prominently on that boat.

Since no commercially available .50 caliber rifle existed at that time, he decided to make a semi-automatic weapon. With no background in manufacturing or engineering, Barrett sketched a cross-sectioned, full-size rifle, adding different components to it. Once he decided on the concept, he approached some machine shops with his drawings. They told him that if his ideas were any good, someone smarter would have already designed it. However, this did not diminish his determination.

A few days later, Bob Mitchell, a tool and die maker and machinist in Smyrna, Tennessee, agreed to help. After their regular job responsibilities, the men would start working on Barrett’s ideas, sometimes laboring together all night in a one-bay garage using a small mill and lathe. Barrett also found support from a sheet metal fabricator who allowed him to visit the owner’s shop and work directly with one employee, Harry Watson. The resulting gun was the shoulder-fired Barrett rifle, which was created in less than four months.

While fine-tuning the first prototype rifle, Barrett began designing a second prototype that featured an improved and sleek exterior and other improvements learned from the first prototype. He made a video of the first prototype being fired, then prepared the second prototype so it would sit on a table. He displayed the latter at a Houston, Texas, gun show where three people gave him deposits to make a rifle for them. With a limited amount of money, Barrett set up a small shop at his residence in a gravel-floored garage. He began by building a batch of 30 rifles, mainly because the two wooden gun racks he made in his father’s cabinet shop held 15 rifles each.

 

[Trashos]

normie, do you want to explain yourself as to why my post was rated with "cuck"? In a coherent manner if possible, although it is brave of me to assume you are capable of it.

Sykar, what part of my post was "shit"?

 

[Parabalus]

normie, do you want to explain yourself as to why my post was rated with "cuck"? In a coherent manner if possible, although it is brave of me to assume you are capable of it.

Sykar, what part of my post was "shit"?

Edgelording, somehow using a ton of consumables instead of TM makes them more prestigious.

 

[Sykar]

normie, do you want to explain yourself as to why my post was rated with "cuck"? In a coherent manner if possible, although it is brave of me to assume you are capable of it.

Sykar, what part of my post was "shit"?

So you do not get the idiocy of the statement that TM is for "non-psionics"? It is precisely that reason that it is so potent without any real investment that it is the most overpowered discipline. If balance where a thing this discipline should be much more heavily reliant on WP and skill level, especially Stasis.

 

[Sheepherder]

TM is good because it makes my characters go fast
fast = objectively good
checkmate

 

[Trashos]

I occasionally receive ratings of extreme disagreement by normie, and I never see any post describing the disagreement. So, I am legit curious to see whether he has the gift of articulation or he is just a mental midget with some buttons near his fingers. Come on, normie, don't be shy. Let us see what you 've got.

EDIT: Just as I suspected.

Sykar, all the discussions I remember from the time when TM was about to show up were about how it would be support psi for all builds. Obviously, it can be used with psi builds too, but it consumes important psi for them, while for the non-psi builds it just consumes some HP and AP. Clearly, its best function is for non-psi builds.

 

[Sykar]

Which makes it shit.