Underrail: The Incline Awakens

[lukaszek]

How is robbing Ray now possible?

There's a hidden vent in the building next to Ray's that leads straight to his office. His cameras are positioned in such a way that they cannot see you while your rob half his store blind.

What about the jet ski parts though? Any chance of taking these?

as i said, there are some jet parts on the shelves that are not covered by cameras.
With jammer you might be able to steal some parts directly from jets

 

[ItsChon]

I knew someone would try out "but they're all guns." That's fairly irrelevant. As you point out, despite sharing a skill, each of these weapons are their own distinct thing—and because feats are used to lock you into a given path (since, without them, your mode of offense becomes steadily more inadequate as the game progresses), most are used to the exclusion of the other types of firearms.

Yet despite this, the singular Guns skill allows you to use all types of guns, should you choose. Psi schools each have their own, separate skill line. That's actually one of the key issues here that I haven't yet mentioned, because there's a lot to cover. I could have Guns, Throwing, and Crossbows, if I wanted, and none of them would cause the others to consume more ammunition because I'm carrying more than one type of weapon or some such gibberish. If I invest a full raft of skill points and feats into a skill, I damned well expect to be able to use the skill to its fullest.

Not only that, but psi is now tied to Intelligence. That is not merely three (or four!) skills needed for omni-psi, but two attributes, whereas Guns relies on one attribute and one skill (though to be fair, Dexterity can also play a part).

The reason I lumped all the different guns together is to make the point that, unlike pure psi before the rework, pure guns had many different play styles. If I want to use only guns, I have so many different builds at my disposal. Before the rework, if I wanted to use only Psi, I only have a tranquility build or a psychosis build at my disposal. Whether or not psi has multiple stats that are tied to its success, or requires more of a skill point investment to unlock multiple psi schools (something that existed before the rework by the way, so is a non sequitur as it relates to our discussion of the rework) is irrelevant to the point that I was making. And weren't you the one that said sameyness is bad? That not everything needs to work like a gun? So I don't see why you're choosing to compare guns to psi in this particular instance.

That is provably false. School-specific feats (such as all four Metathermics-specific feats), not unlike firearm- or melee weapon-specific feats, did actually exist before the psi nerf. I may have had access to two of the three (or all three) schools in which I chose to invest, but I still had to emphasize some over others, or choose to emphasize none and be more versatile but not super-strong.

Let's review our three dimensions of choice for pure/emphasized psi, prior to the nerf:

• four possible school combinations (three combinations of two, or all three)
• a dozen or so specialization feats
  
• Tranquility or Psychosis

Yes, if you went absolutely full-blown psi to the exclusion of all else, you could level all three schools, choose most of the best feats, and would then be left with two notable choices—Tranquility or Psychosis. There were gradations of less psi, though, all of which were viable.

Even if other builds could be done, that doesn't mean they were being done, as you tried to argue earlier in the thread regarding the psi rework only having TM based build. Just because I proved you wrong then, doesn't mean it would be wrong to make the same claim about the state of psi before the rework.

I'd like to note that none of these dimensions have been removed after the psi rework. The combinations are still there, and even more specialization feats have been added. The only thing that has been changed is the amount of spells that you can have. Let me also make a point that before the psi rework we had six less psi abilities in the three main schools. So if you were doing a combination of two, factoring in your claim that a ton of psi skills are useless, you'd have essentially the same selection as you did from before the rework.

I've already established that this limitation hasn't reduced the amount of variation/builds you can make, so your entire argument hinges on the fact that you prefer the flexibility and style of gameplay that comes with having all those abilities at your disposal.

I am arguing on two fronts, yes; and I know it's a bit obnoxious, but they're inextricably linked. I realize Styg stated in the initial announcement that he'd been planning to rework psi for a while, and perhaps that's true, but in my opinion he did it mainly to make room for TM, so that pure psi didn't become truly overpowered with no restrictions (and with TM, it would have). TM and the nerf are interrelated.

Your ability to find some psi builds that exclude TM doesn't alter the fact that TM has taken over like super-AIDS—apt term, by the way. TM has really pozzed the Underrail neghole.

There is a third front: Although I loved having all of my abilities available in any scenario, I do objectively agree that the capacity to do EVERYTHING went too far; and as you say, full-blown pure psi wasn't quite varied enough build-wise (though not "literally the same" as you've hyperbolized). As usual, though, Styg went too damn far. I won't get into specifics, but in my view he broke its (psi's) elbow, poked its eye, stomped its instep, and kicked it in the groin—a thorough torturer.

I can buy that they're linked, but TM's brokeness doesn't mean innervation and psi reserves are broken, it just means that TM needs to be curtailed/fixed, if you want to make that claim.

I do hate the TM prevalence in so many builds...which is why I just make builds that don't use TM. The psi rework did nothing to change the viability of builds that don't use psi, and all the hybrid builds that infused psi with guns/melee still work just as well. They've even received new psi skills in patches that came after the rework to further give people options. I just don't know why your dislike of TM and the general trend of every build shoehorning it in, effects your enjoyment of psi builds that don't utilize it.

What would you have suggested he do instead if he went too far with the current rework. What would have been a happy medium?

People can still do this now by either using their meta knowledge to innervate just the right 5-6 psi abilities for a given situation, or else sneak a peak and then scurry off (or reload the game) to innervate same.

This is a nonargument. We can say the same thing about savescumming, that doesn't mean we should design our game around it. Before, the game gave you all the options and you would be purposeful gimping yourself to avoid using them. Now you have to go out of your way to try to save scum such things.

And as I've said, before the nerf (and particularly before the expansion), you still had to pick and choose feats. It's just that more (mostly psi nerf-counteracting) feats have been added, forcing you to choose fewer. For example, if you want to innervate two schools without burning more psi, off goes one of your feats. There are a lot of them, as well as nerf-related psi headband parts and medicines, and they're clearly intended to sap power from pure psi.

Before the nerf, there were only ten psi school specific feats that you could use. One of them was related to melee hybrid builds, and a few others were really shit and almost never taken, so this idea that feat selection is super difficult and really differentiates psi builds just isn't true. You could pretty easily fit in 5-8 psi related feats, with another 6-9 feats to spare for anything else you needed.

Long story short, I can see your point; I just think you're over-exaggerating in order to make that point. There was never any "you get absolutely everything" build due to limited feat selection and at least a dual choice between Psychosis and Tranquility. Even if that had been the case, by God Almighty, I invested in three skills, a bunch of feats, and lost 20% (used to be 25%) of my health for the privilege. You can actually feat up two different firearms, such as the sniper rifle and shotgun, at the same time and use both, though not quite as well as if you exclusively selected one; but both of them do only one thing (kill), whereas psi has utility. But both of those firearms also rely on just one attribute and one skill, and don't delete 20% of your health.

I'm glad you can see where I'm coming from but I'm afraid I can't see what your point is. You bring up some valid criticisms but you just seem really jaded that the "have everything at your fingertips with no planning or thought" build is gone. I do wish you would try some of the new psi builds a chance as I think you'd really enjoy them.

 

[jackofshadows]

Here is a hybrid psi build that doesn't include TM. First piece of advice? Add TM anyway—or better yet, add TM instead.

It doesn't include TM but it does include SI as the first feat choice and it doesn't include stuff like stoicism at the same time. In other words, that's an archtypal glass canon build. TM isn't OP/broken by itself but it kinda is when it comes to such builds. Coincidentally, most players who choose to set DOM play min-maxed glass canon builds and TM greatly benefit such approach. That and the fact I personally like TM hence it's my advice even if that's not uncommon at all.

You yourself have very recently wrote a piece about why poisons are useless and how one should execute everyone once the combat starts and yet you heavily dislike TM? Now you're playing TMless sniper. Doesn't make much sense to me What's next: don't min-max stats? Do not search for better gear?

If I didn't like TM this much as you do I'd probably play the vanilla version while waiting for a fix to it that'll probably never come. Or at least would play build that just doesn't need TM.

 

[Tygrende]

There is some merit in what you say, yet I strongly question, and gravely doubt, whether there's a rich community of people actually creating all these diverse, great psi builds.

My charge is that what you describe exists mostly as theorycrafting, dreaming about what could be. What actually happens (and we all know this is a constant presence, you can't deny it) most of the time is that TM gets added to every build. Certainly there are many more TM-only hybrid builds being posted anywhere (Underrail forums, Codex, Steam forums) than all other types of psi builds combined.

There are people playing those psi builds. Sheepherder did both TM only and MT only. I saw PK only with a heavy emphasis on electrokinesis. TC with any other school is very popular because TC is extremaly strong vs. organics but doesn't work otherwise. I've seen all of them being played - TC/TM, TC/MT, TC/PK. My pacifist build which I'm currently playing is TC/MT at its core and even finds uses for niche abilities a lot people like to call "useless", like neuro-visual disruption. MT/PK I've also seen played because MT kinda sucks against robots as well until late game. TC/MT/PK is also still popular, I think more than full psi is because TM is not as strong for pure psi builds as it is for hybrids. TM is only good to slap on mindlessly on otherwise psiless builds, there's usually too much opportunity cost for pure psi. There is usually no space to add TM on hybrids if you actually want to make a hybrid with something else, like PK hammer or MT chem pistol. Which I also have seen played.

You should look up the discord.

Sameyness is bad, not good. Not everything needs to work like a gun. Not every playstyle need consume resources/gamebux similarly, either.

That is Styg's reasoning as well, I read it every time he posted it (including the psi nerf announcement post), and it's utter bullshit. He is wrong, and so are you.

Resource managment and dealing with opportunity cost is not sameyness.



Quiz for everyone - was this picture made after or before the psi nerf?

 

[Spark Mandriller]

Quiz for everyone - was this picture made after or before the psi nerf?

Spoiler

Hoddurform has the 1.1.5 buffs so that makes it kinda easy.

 

[Parabalus]

If I see Coral in the SGS docks, does that mean there is 100% no tattoo and I should restart?

There is some merit in what you say, yet I strongly question, and gravely doubt, whether there's a rich community of people actually creating all these diverse, great psi builds.

My charge is that what you describe exists mostly as theorycrafting, dreaming about what could be. What actually happens (and we all know this is a constant presence, you can't deny it) most of the time is that TM gets added to every build. Certainly there are many more TM-only hybrid builds being posted anywhere (Underrail forums, Codex, Steam forums) than all other types of psi builds combined.

There are people playing those psi builds. Sheepherder did both TM only and MT only. I saw PK only with a heavy emphasis on electrokinesis. TC with any other school is very popular because TC is extremaly strong vs. organics but doesn't work otherwise. I've seen all of them being played - TC/TM, TC/MT, TC/PK. My pacifist build which I'm currently playing is TC/MT at its core and even finds uses for niche abilities a lot people like to call "useless", like neuro-visual disruption. MT/PK I've also seen played because MT kinda sucks against robots as well until late game. TC/MT/PK is also still popular, I think more than full psi is because TM is not as strong for pure psi builds as it is for hybrids. TM is only good to slap on mindlessly on otherwise psiless builds, there's usually too much opportunity cost for pure psi. There is usually no space to add TM on hybrids if you actually want to make a hybrid with something else, like PK hammer or MT chem pistol. Which I also have seen played.

You should look up the discord.

Sameyness is bad, not good. Not everything needs to work like a gun. Not every playstyle need consume resources/gamebux similarly, either.

That is Styg's reasoning as well, I read it every time he posted it (including the psi nerf announcement post), and it's utter bullshit. He is wrong, and so are you.

Resource managment and dealing with opportunity cost is not sameyness.



Quiz for everyone - was this picture made after or before the psi nerf?

Is this extreme degeneracy really something to praise?

Might as well post some bigger mobs with pre-nerf Force Field.

 

[Blaine]

If I see Coral in the SGS docks, does that mean there is 100% no tattoo and I should restart?

Yes, or else don't plan your build with the tattoos in mind, because that seems to have been Styg's intention.

Personally, I don't see the big issue with planning around the tattoos, since most of them are only about as strong as (and often less strong than) a single standard feat, and we plan around all of those right up to level 30.

What is the intention, exactly? In Styg's ideal world, it seems that the organic way to experience Booth is to stumble upon him for the first time, select a tattoo without knowing its effects beforehand, and very possibly end up with something useless that doesn't do a damned thing for you. The entire concept begs for save scumming and meta knowledge, yet apparently that annoys Styg.

Perplexing.

Now, I will say this: The charms appear to be useless, and so far no one seems to know what they actually do (beyond the curse), yet there are builds (lacking Crossbows and/or Throwing) that use minimal utility slots. Therefore, if the charms actually do something, they may have a cool niche other than being a gypsy-themed developer prank. If they slightly increased to-hit and decreased the enemy's to-hit versus the type of enemy the charm is fashioned from, say, that'd be neat.

In fact, the "two equipped at a time" curse that severely reduces to-hit seems to imply that, even if we don't see it reflected in the shown percentages, they may assist and hinder to-hit chance behind the scenes. Who knows?

 

[Parabalus]

If I see Coral in the SGS docks, does that mean there is 100% no tattoo and I should restart?

Yes, or else don't plan your build with the tattoos in mind, because that seems to have been Styg's intention.

Personally, I don't see the big issue with planning around the tattoos, since most of them are only about as strong as (and often less strong than) a single standard feat, and we plan around all of those right up to level 30.

What is the intention, exactly? In Styg's ideal world, it seems that the organic way to experience Booth is to stumble upon him for the first time, select a tattoo without knowing its effects beforehand, and very possibly end up with something useless that doesn't do a damned thing for you. The entire concept begs for save scumming and meta knowledge, yet apparently that annoys Styg.

Perplexing.

Now, I will say this: The charms appear to be useless, and so far no one seems to know what they actually do (beyond the curse), yet there are builds (lacking Crossbows and/or Throwing) that use minimal utility slots. Therefore, if the charms actually do something, they may have a cool niche other than being a gypsy-themed developer prank. If they slightly increased to-hit and decreased the enemy's to-hit versus the type of enemy the charm is fashioned from, say, that'd be neat.

In fact, the "two equipped at a time" curse that severely reduces to-hit seems to imply that, even if we don't see it reflected in the shown percentages, they may assist and hinder to-hit chance behind the scenes. Who knows?

I've never seen the tattoo artist, that's the main draw for me, building around them seems a bit extreme.

Also using a build with full utility slots so charms eh.

 

[Blaine]

This is a nonargument. We can say the same thing about savescumming, that doesn't mean we should design our game around it.

It might be a non-argument if not for the fact that Styg routinely redesigns the game to counteract any possibility of save-scumming or exploiting (or to do anything he DOESN'T LIKE, for whatever reason), to the extent that he's able (not every hole can be patched).

Take zone transitions, for example. He didn't like people ducking out of the zone, healing up, and coming back in, so he made that much more difficult to abuse—and I freely admit that the limited nature of a room-by-room level design with transitions tends to creates these sorts of issues, but the result is that we're left with a game in which you really aren't ever allowed to retreat. Players who wouldn't have abused zone transitions maliciously but might have wanted to retreat when they're about to die will now be treated to a gangbang.

Of course, zone transitions are still abusable, but generally only if there are multiple transitions on the same or adjacent facing of the map.

Another example: The wait time for Super Steel manufacture. This is directly intended to prevent save-scumming.

In general, I wholly agree with you: Games shouldn't be designed around save-scummers, exploiters, or (I'd like to add) min-maxing, highly experienced players, but Styg has done all of these things.

 

[Blaine]

I've never seen the tattoo artist, that's the main draw for me, building around them seems a bit extreme.

And that, everyone, is precisely the issue when Styg makes these sorts of decisions.

Now that Coral exists, a new player may finish Underrail once, twice, or three times, having never seen nor encountered Booth. Booth > Coral.

I am fine with some of the better randomly-selected "puzzle pieces" not showing up in a given playthrough, but they really should all have something to offer, both interest-wise and in terms of benefit.

 

[lukaszek]

based on conversations coral got something to do with unique beasts you slay... problem is I can no longer locate her after fighting one! Anyone got ALL the locations she can stay? Im aware of Hanging Rat, Junkyard and SGS docks. In SGS and Junkyard she was referencing rusteater while Hanging Rat was about tchort or something else in deep caverns

EDIT: found some info that other locations should be camp hathor docks, bar in core city and hopperdome(this is probably location where she dissappears for me, so far wasnt able to find it while swimming around)

 

[Sheepherder]

Yes, or else don't plan your build with the tattoos in mind, because that seems to have been Styg's intention.

Personally, I don't see the big issue with planning around the tattoos, since most of them are only about as strong as (and often less strong than) a single standard feat, and we plan around all of those right up to level 30.

Nah, most tats are much weaker than feats (barring Interloper, Snooping and other near useless feats). Of the tattoos only Beast (especially on builds which don't have easily obtainable bonusdamage modifiers) and maaaybe Drifter are worthwhile, everything else provides effects so minute you wouldn't even know they're there.

 

[lukaszek]

found coral in railcrossing bar. She had no knowledge to share, even with high persuasion.
She appear to move quite frequently. After she moved away I tried saving and quickly scouting all other hubs. No luck. One location i got no access too could be free drones?

On topic of upgrading your ride early: You can swim to rig(coral wasnt there either even though she seem to like bars) there is protectorate cruiser. You can steal key to it although I dont know of any way to board their ride without attracting attention?
You can however steal its parts, usually they are of good quality. While at it you can sell parts from all other jets and sell them to nearby vendor...

 

[Blaine]

Of the tattoos only Beast (especially on builds which don't have easily obtainable bonusdamage modifiers) and maaaybe Drifter are worthwhile, everything else provides effects so minute you wouldn't even know they're there.

Yes and no. 20+ skill points "saved" with the SGS tattoo isn't a lot, but on a tightly skill meta-maxed build, it can mean the difference between being able to deploy Mk III traps (75 skill) instead of only Mk II traps (55 skill), just as an example—and indeed, being one of these skill scrimpers myself, if Booth is missing from my game, something will end up being sacrificed. Not that it will matter all that much in the end, mind you.

 

[Spark Mandriller]

Take zone transitions, for example. He didn't like people ducking out of the zone, healing up, and coming back in, so he made that much more difficult to abuse—and I freely admit that the limited nature of a room-by-room level design with transitions tends to creates these sorts of issues, but the result is that we're left with a game in which you really aren't ever allowed to retreat. Players who wouldn't have abused zone transitions maliciously but might have wanted to retreat when they're about to die will now be treated to a gangbang.

Because that's a ridiculous concept. It's a turn based game. Leaving the area and healing/reloading/recharging is your turn, so when you come back it's their turn. That's fair.
Also Expedition added so many ways to stack initiative that it was easy to always go first even with the penalty, so you could keep going first and attacking then leaving before anyone could move. That was obviously broken.

 

[Parabalus]

found coral in railcrossing bar. She had no knowledge to share, even with high persuasion.
She appear to move quite frequently. After she moved away I tried saving and quickly scouting all other hubs. No luck. One location i got no access too could be free drones?

Any validity to this stuff? Latest vrpg thread.

The only thing better than six is seven.
underrail.exe v1.1.5.7, byte 0x16 to 0x17 at 0x37E380

Open latest underrail.exe in a hex editor
Go to offset 0x37E380
Change that byte from 0x16 to 0x17
Save
Now your charms are easier to understand

Well then you're pretty damn unlucky. Or rude maybe. Or an unbeliever. You're near minimum possible positive power (oh yeah, it can go into negatives too) even with kissing the charm.
Hey, since you like licking the charm, also change 0x16 -> 0x17 @ 0x346D96 to conserve your tongue

 

[lukaszek]

found coral in railcrossing bar. She had no knowledge to share, even with high persuasion.
She appear to move quite frequently. After she moved away I tried saving and quickly scouting all other hubs. No luck. One location i got no access too could be free drones?

Any validity to this stuff? Latest vrpg thread.

The only thing better than six is seven.
underrail.exe v1.1.5.7, byte 0x16 to 0x17 at 0x37E380

Open latest underrail.exe in a hex editor
Go to offset 0x37E380
Change that byte from 0x16 to 0x17
Save
Now your charms are easier to understand

Well then you're pretty damn unlucky. Or rude maybe. Or an unbeliever. You're near minimum possible positive power (oh yeah, it can go into negatives too) even with kissing the charm.
Hey, since you like licking the charm, also change 0x16 -> 0x17 @ 0x346D96 to conserve your tongue

all that changed is kissing any charm gives you some mysterious buff/debuff that lasts 50s
Kissing another replaces it.
CHarms description didnt change, perhaps 0x37E380 is no longer correct one

EDIT: and i am on 1157, perhaps being on experimental prior to that screwed something

 

[epeli]

The 0x37E380 offset is a major game mechanics change, it makes charms always active so they are consistent and possible to test. Charm power is still variable.
The 0x346D96 offset only turns the usecharm status effect visible.

Now that these were reposted on a styg-controlled zone, there will be no more games slowly disclosing charm mechanics. I guess. Naturally, I have no idea who the guy posting those might be.

 

[lukaszek]

Charm power is still variable.

what affects charm power?

 

[Sheepherder]

Of the tattoos only Beast (especially on builds which don't have easily obtainable bonusdamage modifiers) and maaaybe Drifter are worthwhile, everything else provides effects so minute you wouldn't even know they're there.

Yes and no. 20+ skill points "saved" with the SGS tattoo isn't a lot, but on a tightly skill meta-maxed build, it can mean the difference between being able to deploy Mk III traps (75 skill) instead of only Mk II traps (55 skill), just as an example—and indeed, being one of these skill scrimpers myself, if Booth is missing from my game, something will end up being sacrificed. Not that it will matter all that much in the end, mind you.

Skill increases are very temporary in usefulness - I'd just wait a level and craft then. Or use the new John's Special, which now increases skills by 5. Damage increase from beast tat and the MP increase from Drifter are more permanent in their usefulness. I also min-max a fair amount, but apart from a few odd builds I never had a shortage of skill points. I don't think missing Booth is very impactful on any build.

 

[Spark Mandriller]

SGS tattoo would have been appreciated back when the level cap was still 25 and all those easy ways to boost skills (underpie/Jon's special, Engineer suit, Institute belts), didn't exist. But now they do so you have way more skill points than you need. I can't even find a use for skill points at high levels. I just dump them into evasion because everything else is already either maxed out or as high as it needs to be to pass checks.

 

[Parabalus]

When will Styg finally nerfhammer Stealth?

 

[lukaszek]

When will Styg finally nerfhammer Stealth?

movement will be nerfed first

 

[Parabalus]

When will Styg finally nerfhammer Stealth?

movement will be nerfed first

Nothing is really too egregious except Fancy Footwork tbh.

 

[lukaszek]

defence skills will be split so that evasion no longer covers both ranged and aoe