Underrail: The Incline Awakens

[lukaszek]

It's a little extra insurance against Crippling Strike, the premier "This feat is complete trash for an actual player, but every random hobo with an ice pick or shiv has it, and will spam it to fuck your shit up if you depend on STR in any way."

played a bit to see if I could trigger even single opportunist off encumbered enemy. Not a chance

 

[Blaine]

Naturally.

Recently, while pacifying a Serpentborn village, a stray krigsfar survivor surprised me, and my hit chance with my combat shotgun went down to the minimum of 10%.

Minimal STR requirements for all firearms have always been total rubbish in this game. They function primarily as a stat sink, and secondarily as an enabler of Crippling Strike—not a very important role, in my view. They're rubbish because a ten-year-old child with noodles for arms can use a high-caliber hunting rifle. Burst fire with ARs is the only concept with a leg to stand on.

It's also fairly clear that weight units in Underrail, while obfuscated and blurred (as they should be), most closely match kilograms. I know this because the weight values given for various items in the game, when viewed both individually and collectively, most closely match kilograms rather than pounds or any other unit of measurement.

Which means that a metal armor suit weighing 22 kg/50 lbs. (but more usually around 40 lbs.), in the world of Underrail, forces the wearer to move only half as quickly (if not even more slowly), and requires above-average strength simply to wear without moving as though through molasses. In real life, I could strap 50 lbs. to my back, not even distributed properly, and sprint up the hill down the road from my house. Therefore, by Underrail standards, I, Blaine, am a superhuman.

"B-but it's partly abstracted ENCUMBRANCE, n-n-not just WEIGHT!" Fuck off, Poindexters. You're addressing a superhuman here, so have some respect.

 

[Tygrende]

They're rubbish because a ten-year-old child with noodles for arms can use a high-caliber hunting rifle. Burst fire with ARs is the only concept with a leg to stand on.

Off-hand without anything to rest it on, a ten-year-old child with noodles for arms will have issues holding a 9 lbs/4 kg rifle (average for a bolt-action rifle chambered for .308 and similiar, scope included) steadily enough to shoot accurately at any distance hunting rifles are meant to be shot at. I happen to know from a lot of experience. Nothing to do with recoil which is a separate issue on its own.

Underrail implements this as a hit chance penalty for each point of STR below the requirement. The penalty is roughly equal to how much STR you're missing as a percentage of the requirement. So if your AR needs 6 STR but you only have 4, that's about 33% penalty. If you have 19 STR but want to use Balor's with its 20 requirement, it's only 5%. It's not a bad implementation as far as realism goes.

In real life, I could strap 50 lbs. to my back, not even distributed properly, and sprint up the hill down the road from my house. Therefore, by Underrail standards, I, Blaine, am a superhuman.

No, by Underrail standards you're just someone who took Sprint, a lvl 1 feat.

You like to base a lot of your criticism on realism but it didn't really work out this time. Both firearms and armor require a bit of muscle to be used without suffering from suboptimal performance. It's not much by any means, but neither does Underrail require high STR to use them. Shotguns only require 5, which is only two points above muscle atrophy and can be considered average or slightly below average.

 

[Blaine]

I happen to know from a lot of experience.

I have plenty of experience using firearms, and had to qualify on the M-16A2 when I was in the USAF. That makes me one of the few people who use this forum who has actually used a burst fire/automatic battle rifle.

African warlords have children using AKs and redneck children fill up outdoor shooting ranges on the weekend, so cut the BS.

No, by Underrail standards you're just someone who took Sprint, a lvl 1 feat.

I knew someone would post this. Well, it's my own fault for starting a big gay realism-based argument in the first place.

I could also move at a trot or jog with little or no measurable loss of speed for either short or extended periods, forget moving 50%+ more slowly than usual. Then there's that video of guys turning somersaults and doing acrobatics in full suits of medieval plate mail....

I know perfectly well it's for "game balance" reasons, but even long before Underrail was an apple in Styg's eye, the notion that a suit of armor makes you move in essentially slow motion has always irked me.

Generally speaking, realism-based arguments are rubbish, I've excoriated them on the regular, and when I make them I'm just being an asshole and am not in earnest.

It's not much by any means, but neither does Underrail require high STR to use them. Shotguns only require 5, which is only two points above muscle atrophy and can be considered average or slightly below average.

Yeah, and then when you get hit with Crippling Strike, which will happen anytime you allow any human NPC into melee range, you won't even be able to raise the barrel. More and more, feats and other mechanics that massively benefit enemies and are rubbish for the player are starting to get on my nerves—possibly because we've now progressed to building them directly into the fundamental workings of combat (AP reservation).

Meanwhile, rapid-firing a Desert Eagle analogue ten times in one turn requires no STR at all.

 

[agris]

and redneck children fill up outdoor shooting ranges on the weekend

Reminds me of when I was at the range and saw a dad coaching his, imma say 8 year old, on how to fire this long barrel benelli semi-auto shotgun. the kid's finger was hovering over the trigger the entire time the dad was working with him to get better photos of the kid shooting.

first and last time at that range.

 

[Ghulgothas]

and redneck children fill up outdoor shooting ranges on the weekend

Reminds me of when I was at the range and saw a dad coaching his, imma say 8 year old, on how to fire this long barrel benelli semi-auto shotgun. the kid's finger was hovering over the trigger the entire time the dad was working with him to get better photos of the kid shooting.

first and last time at that range.

No reason to worry, there's no way a kid that young would have enough experience to take the Sixth Shell or Fragmented Chaos feats, let alone Leading Shot. Kid's dad would've come away with only scratch damage at worst, and that's before he even would've even thought to pop one of his health hypos.

 

[Tygrende]

I have plenty of experience using firearms, and had to qualify on the M-16A2 when I was in the USAF.

If you want to compare expertise and dick sizes, I'm a shooting instructor. I shoot with various types of people using various firearms on a daily basis. This includes kids, people with missing limbs, people with diseases such as cerebral palsy, etc. Military and police, too. Firearms include anything from .22 pistols up to rifles in full power cartridges, including full auto from time to time. I wouldn't be talking about this otherwise.

From experience I think I have a pretty good idea how various deficiencies in the muscle department affect shooting and I'd say they affect off-hand accuracy, a lot. Especially with long guns, handguns to a lesser degree.

I'm at work right now so I might as well post some proof. I'd rather not record myself shooting full auto so an older pic of the shot timer will have to suffice. I trust someone with plenty of experience can read a shot timer.

Spoiler

That makes me one of the few people who use this forum who has actually used a burst fire/automatic battle rifle.

M16A2 is not a battle rifle. Battle rifles are service rifles chambered for full power rifle cartridges. M1 Garand is a battle rifle, for example. M16 and its variants are assault rifles - selective fire rifles with detachable magazines chambered for intermediate cartridges.

Might not seem like a big deal but they are both very specific and clearly defined categories, I wouldn't expect someone with plenty of experience to confuse the two.

African warlords have children using AKs and redneck children fill up outdoor shooting ranges on the weekend, so cut the BS.

And they all suffer from hit chance penalties because their child arms are strong enough to hold a rifle, but not strong enough to hold it steadily for any period of time.

I know perfectly well it's for "game balance" reasons, but even long before Underrail was an apple in Styg's eye, the notion that a suit of armor makes you move in essentially slow motion has always irked me.

It's not ideal but okay. It's not like you cannot move in metal, you can go as low as 4% with super steel, armor sloping, nimble and body weight training. 2% if you spec sloping. That's the equivalent of a plate armor you can do gymnastics in. You only end up at 95% if you wear reinforced tungsten and don't build for lower penalty. Even then there's some mobility available. I think that if anything the weight value on tungsten and reinforced variant is too low compared to other armors.

Generally speaking, realism-based arguments are rubbish, I've excoriated them on the regular, and when I make them I'm just being an asshole and am not in earnest.

I agree. Especially when Underrail strikes a pretty good balance between being too realistic or too silly for its own good.

Yeah, and then when you get hit with Crippling Strike, which will happen anytime you allow any human NPC into melee range, you won't even be able to raise the barrel. More and more, feats and other mechanics that massively benefit enemies and are rubbish for the player are starting to get on my nerves—possibly because we've now progressed to building them directly into the fundamental workings of combat (AP reservation).

With one stack of CS you can still hit, just not reliably. There are always going to be feats and mechanics that work better for enemies and vice versa because it's almost always an asymmetric one vs. many scenario. Crippling strike is not even bad, it's just that there are so many better things to pick for knives and fists. Be glad no enemies have cut-throat.

Personally I like that STR requirements are a factor to consider beyond just the character creation. You can choose between a number of weapons in the 2nd weapon slots some of which do not require STR and make great sidearms. There's a number of items and drugs you can increase STR with, more than any other stat. On an AR build I tend to eat BBQ if I'm going to fight crippling strike enemies. Already have 7 STR for Full Auto, at 8 you still meet the 6 requirement with one stack of CS. Add adrenaline and that's 2 stacks you can shrug off for 3 turns. Use coke instead, 3 stacks ignored for 2 turns. Can't stack higher than that.

Meanwhile, rapid-firing a Desert Eagle analogue ten times in one turn requires no STR at all.

I won't defend that beyond noticing there's a soft 5 STR "requirement" on big pistols in the form of Steadfast Aim.

What I dislike about it more is that the upgraded version dazes all enemies around you while Black Arrow dazes the player. If it's gonna daze you, at least make it daze everything around you too.

 

[Blaine]

Might not seem like a big deal but they are both very specific and clearly defined categories, I wouldn't expect someone with plenty of experience to confuse the two.

Most people aren't particularly familiar with the term "battle rifle," whereas everyone knows the term "assault rifle."

You clearly know the difference. Yes, I'm saying that that was a deliberate test, and my evidence is the esoteric nature of that term.

I've actually used an M1 Garand, though I don't own one; I also drilled and marched with a decommissioned M1 in military boarding school for years, so I know every inch of the weapon literally like the back of my hand. Today, its most popular use seems to be as an example of a rifle that utilizes an actual ammunition clip—although the clip slots into an internal magazine, but we needn't mention that detail.

Since we're posting pictures, here's one of me in military boarding school, then in the Air Force a few years later, just after basic training:

Spoiler

As I've said, I qualified with the M-16A2. What I didn't say is that other than that one day of qualification per year, I never touched the thing, except when voluntold to fill in for Security Forces duties (military police in the USAF). I did earn a marksman medal in basic training, but that mostly just means I didn't miss the target 90% of the time like most city slickers tended to do. The real point is that I've actually fired an automatic rifle.

I am not a shooting instructor, but I do own and shoot various firearms. That puts me somewhere between "doesn't know shit about guns" and "shoots guns for a living." I will actually bow to your greater experience in this case, since I've done very little instructing. I have instructed my sister, and uh... well, can't remember offhand. I do clearly recall handing her a .45 revolver with a lot of kick (don't remember the specific make) and watching her put a very tight grouping on the target. It was her first day on a range. She still has that target framed in her house somewhere, since she out-shot my cousin (retarded fat mall security guard gun nut type) with the .45 that day.

Be glad no enemies have cut-throat.

You should never actually type this kind of shit where Styg might read it. Don't think I haven't thought of that kind of thing.

Personally I like that STR requirements are a factor to consider beyond just the character creation. You can choose between a number of weapons in the 2nd weapon slots some of which do not require STR and make great sidearms. There's a number of items and drugs you can increase STR with, more than any other stat. On an AR build I tend to eat BBQ if I'm going to fight crippling strike enemies. Already have 7 STR for Full Auto, at 8 you still meet the 6 requirement with one stack of CS. Add adrenaline and that's 2 stacks you can shrug off for 3 turns. Use coke instead, 3 stacks ignored for 2 turns. Can't stack higher than that.

Might be a hobo with a knife nearby, better bring some barbecue.

The thing I don't like about STR requirements is that in most cases (tin can/firearm build, AR but no tin can build, sniper rifle build, sledgehammer tin cans being the one possible exception), you're very heavily incentivized to buy JUST ENOUGH Strength to qualify for the thing in question, since it's only a point-sink prerequisite.

This fact of having just enough STR to qualify is then used against you constantly. It's not enough that it's a point sink—the fact you didn't dump into it is deliberately leveraged in your disfavor, asymmetrically.

 

[RoBoBOBR]

After a few dropped runs, starting way back in 2015, i finally beat the game (DLC included, hard, oddity). Tremendous game, though quite time consuming. Used ballistic pistols — bullet time plus temporal PSI. Nice build, but it takes some time to get going. I plan to eventually try DOMINATING difficulty (probably with classic XP), but not right away.

 

[agris]

I’m in the same boat right now, hard, oddity and haven’t played since alpha. Working my through a psi-free smg build and wondering if I should have included TM or something. Level 14 and definitely not feeling strong, lunatics and iron heads can beat me unless I want to expend a lot of resources on meaningless tunnel fights.

 

[Blaine]

I’m in the same boat right now, hard, oddity and haven’t played since alpha. Working my through a psi-free smg build and wondering if I should have included TM or something. Level 14 and definitely not feeling strong, lunatics and iron heads can beat me unless I want to expend a lot of resources on meaningless tunnel fights.

Nearly every build experiences growing pains around that time. The sniper build I just finished played had me questioning my build choices at around the same point, but by level 19-20, I was feeling strong. By the late 20s, I felt invincible (not entirely accurate, as virtually all Serpentborn psi users could kill me if they landed just one ability—disabled and nuked).

As I mentioned during our discussion about the build you're now playing, I played a very similar SMG/Spec Ops/Expertise build on Hard, and by the later game it was one of the most powerful-feeling builds I'd ever run. Nor do I recall having to get too cheesy/meta-y with it.

Possibly the W2C nerf was targeted specifically at silenced SMGs, and they now suck. I wouldn't be surprised. If so, then I apologize for leading you astray, although strictly speaking they're not necessary to the build; but not being able to use them reliably to "ease up" an area's enemy complement would definitely up the difficulty ante, most especially in Ironhead territory.

With Ironheads specifically, literally just come back later. 14 is slightly early to try to take on that gang anyway in my opinion, especially with that particular build. For a sniper build, Ironheads were much easier earlier on.

Oh yeah and by the way, Lunatics were excruciating for that SMG build when I played it. Sorry. That's a feature of the build. You have to be strong enough to obliterate them by the bushel before they become barely tolerable to fight.

 

[agris]

Possibly the W2C nerf was targeted specifically at silenced SMGs, and they now suck. I wouldn't be surprised. If so, then I apologize for leading you astray, although strictly speaking they're not necessary to the build; but not being able to use them reliably to "ease up" an area's enemy complement would definitely up the difficulty ante, most especially in Ironhead territory.

Hah, you big softy. While I appreciate the sense of responsibility you felt when reading my post, I have to tell you something about myself: I love slow-burn builds. In the, albeit much simpler, gameplay of Fallout 1 and 2, I will often play painstaking hybrid builds that don't come into their own until the last ~20% or so of the game. And then, it's oh so glorious.

For a combatfag like myself, slow burn builds have the added benefit of making a larger portion of the game actually challenging. Yes, the payoff of ultimately being able to stomp on most things is important, but I never want to reach that point too early or a game becomes dull.

I can't say I'm really questioning the build at this point, I just hit 14 and got Commando and have enough foresight to see where it's going and how strong it can be. I think there's a bit of surprise though because I've played/followed underrail from before and through the eventual release, back when SMGs really were OP. Tracking lens (or whatever) added crit onto burst, lots of feats applied to SMGs/burst that don't know. My confidence isn't actually shaken, but I'm... lets call it psi-curious. My second (and probably last, tbh) playthrough will probably be a wielder of cave magic.

Anyway, appreciate you sharing your experience with Ironheads and Lunatics. When I completely curb stomped Depot B at level 7 or whatever I knew I was on the right track, but where I am in the narrative and level-wise, these garbage-tier mobs are doing a great job of reminding me that I ain't shit yet. And that's good, it's why I like Styg & Vince's schools of design. Make the player eat shit for a *minute* before you give them that sweet sweet dopamine drip of power stomp.

edit: only silencer I've found so far applies to 5 mm, so I keep my roided-up Jackal handy when I need to eliminate isolated scout-type assets - practically that's cameras and burrower spawn, up to this point. Are you saying that W2C 5 mm is more viable than I'm considering (usually only carry regular 5 mm for this purpose), or that silencers for larger caliber barrels become available later?

 

[jackofshadows]

Level 14 and definitely not feeling strong, lunatics and iron heads can beat me unless I want to expend a lot of resources on meaningless tunnel fights.

For what it's worth, the game has become so big and open that you might not care about resources past Depot A at all means if you want to blast through something like Ironheads somewhat early - go for it, otherwise it could be too easy later on instead.

Regarding psi - while I admire the puristic fetish of some people around here, of course go for TM, you're in perhaps ideal spot for that right now. Future run wise - hybrid builds are feeling really fun imo both tinkering with and actually playing like TC sniper for example.

 

[Blaine]

edit: only silencer I've found so far applies to 5 mm, so I keep my roided-up Jackal handy when I need to eliminate isolated scout-type assets - practically that's cameras and burrower spawn, up to this point. Are you saying that W2C 5 mm is more viable than I'm considering (usually only carry regular 5 mm for this purpose), or that silencers for larger caliber barrels become available later?

A silenced 5mm SMG loaded with W2C can (or could) kill any non-boss tin can in one or two bursts once the build takes off. Here is a screenshot (with JHP loaded, which you of course should use versus unarmored opponents rather than W2C) of my level 30 SMG guy, his actual silenced 5mm Jaguar, and the derived combat stats.

Note that the 34-52 figure (that's per round, silenced) doesn't include the +20 Expertise bonus, the Opportunist bonus, the Blindsiding bonus, etc. This thing can shit holes through tin cans like a fat baby blasting diarrhea through a sheet. In fact, I even opted for more accuracy (forward grip) rather than any other attachment.

Finally, keep in mind that with Commando and Spec Ops, the bursts cost 16 AP each, so with Adrenaline Shot alone that's 4 + 1 = 5 bursts per turn, plus a reload if wearing Bullet Strap Belt.

 

[Oreshnik Missile]

Finally finished the game, this time making the effort to do Mutagen puzzle instead of cheating past Tchort. That fight is actually too easy if you do puzzle and sneak around TNT'ing the tanks, I was a non-crit chem pistolier with some TM, a good build bnut not amazing, was able to kill each tentacle in a round sequentially, and they attacked separately so I didn't take a single hit. Someone can tell Yaz he can unblock me now kek.

Shouldn't have pussied out by taking TM in the last three levels, up till them I was psiless chad. Chem pistol seems pretty straightforward, you can go max DEX with versaility feat using melee skill. Then all the rest of your attributes are optional, though 6 PER is still good for aimed shot and INT is good for crafting and stuff.

Unrelated screenshot

 

[agris]

Oh, so energy shields are super powerful huh? Well, better to find this out at 16 than 26….

to think I went through depot A, innumerable burrower nests, lurkers, ironheads, auto turrets, crawlers, death stalkers, and the beast without one. Turns out I wasn’t playing on hard, I was playing on stupid.

so I’m 16, have about 65 electronics, and built an efficient double medium frequency shield. And it’s amazing. Medium frequency is the best, right? Since these things naturally skew high freq and bullets are med and psi med-low and medium freq. gens. have decent low band coverage already a 2x med seemed a no brainer.

 

[lukaszek]

Medium frequency is the best, right?

you might not have noticed yet, but all 3 types got different visuals. Pick one that you find most pleasing to your eyes

Spoiler

go double low

 

[agris]

lukaszek for looks or function? I kinda like the lightning egg look of medium. I showed up for the stats, stayed bc of the look.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

I've always loved double low because knives can't do shit nigga!!!

 

[agris]

I think the net impact of me discovering energy shields is that quickload will be replaced by increased consumption of batteries.

 

[lukaszek]

cant say im experienced shield user since I prefer to not get hit in first place.
Shield always got very high in quite decent range. Meanwhile slow attacks never get fully stopped, going double low works best against them though. Sniper shots are fast so will get stopped well by any shield. Other big attack that might get problematic is crossbow that is slow too
Same reason I like super steel sheets in tactical armors.
Anyway shields dont weight much, you can just carry each type

 

[Major_Blackhart]

It's one of those things that made me wish that the different chemical pistols were used by enemies, not just the acid one. I mean yeah they're rare and such, but DAMN dude, coming across a balanced kill-team spec'd with a few of those, a crossbow, Electro Stun Pistol gunner, a Sledge Hammerer, plus psionics school of Thought Control?

It seems like something that someone very powerful would send against you as a final fuck you for crossing them.

 

[lukaszek]

serious antagonist would send team of 5 knife users

 

[Jason Liang]

I didn't really bother with shields in my playthrough either.

PSI is just absurdly OP.

 

[Sykar]

Not as OP as AR tincan.