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Underrail: The Incline Awakens

Blaine

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You have to personally make up your mind whether the bullets in Underrail are all rifle caliber, or all pistol caliber, because it's not mentioned what they are, and they can't be both at once. At any rate I don't see how it changes much, it's still real world inspiration.

If they have to be one or the other, then I lean toward pistol-caliber by majority usage alone, because pistols are clearly all pistol-caliber, most if not all SMGs are pistol-caliber, and at least a few ARs are clearly pistol-caliber carbines. Only sniper rifles really break the mold, and 12.7mm is clearly rifle-caliber.

You don't really need to choose between one or the other, though. It can be treated as an economic/inventory abstraction that changes depending upon the weapon the ammo is actually loaded into.

In the case of the Steyr-Auch, it's definitely pistol-caliber 9mm.

Crossbows are balanced around you firing a Shock Bolt MK3 with each shot, that's just how it is. Maybe later Infusion will take a different route with crossbow balance.

That's retarded.
 

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middling burst precision, but coupled with good potshot precision
"Precision: +x%" is global bonus that also affects burst precision, while "Burst precision: +x%" only affects bursts.

So the +10% precision and +10% burst precision adds up to +10% on normal shots and +20% on burst shots.
 

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"Precision: +x%" is global bonus that also affects burst precision, while "Burst precision: +x%" only affects bursts.

So the +10% precision and +10% burst precision adds up to +10% on normal shots and +20% on burst shots.

Makes sense. The Steyr-Auch truly is top-tier.

You miss out on +2 bullets per burst as well as RR + lower caliber + adrenaline/TM to squeeze in an extra burst or two, but the one or two bursts you do get are rock solid.

And sadly, the refurbished Steyr-Auch with nothing but Commando is far stronger and more long-ranged and accurate than anything that's possible with a crossbow, except for the grenade-replacement special bolts.
 
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Makes sense. The Steyr-Auch truly is top-tier.

You miss out on +2 bullets per burst as well as RR + lower caliber + adrenaline/TM to squeeze in an extra burst or two, but the one or two bursts you do get are rock solid.
If you think that's good check out the HK416. It does 20% less damage but it's only 12 ap and gets 3 extra burst shots. It's crazy. The only problem is you need to reload nonstop since you're spamming ten round bursts.
 

Blaine

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If you think that's good check out the HK416. It does 20% less damage but it's only 12 ap and gets 3 extra burst shots. It's crazy. The only problem is you need to reload nonstop since you're spamming ten round bursts.

That is very nice. It's worth noting though that firing 60% more bullets at 20% less damage per is an overall 28% damage increase without Full Auto, while with Full Auto, you're firing 43% more bullets for about a 15% overall damage increase. That's before resistances, which might tend to lower these figures a bit more compared to higher-damage individual bullets; also, the power of W2C lessens based on caliber. Particularly after the W2C nerf, 5mm W2C stats vs 9mm W2C stats is a non-trivial consideration. This is especially true in Expedition: AKA Everything Has Armor, Fuck You.

So it's more damage, but not insanely more.

Still and all, it's more damage, a bit more crit chance, only 2 less optimal, cheaper ammo as well, and lower AP cost. It's further worth noting however that 12 is a very particular quantity of AP that triples up to 36, breaking what one might term the "70 barrier" and preventing you from throwing a grenade without an additional source of AP or from firing a second burst even with Adrenaline Shot, Contraction, or Blitz. That second burst requires Vitality Power or a combination of Adrenaline, Contraction, and/or Blitz to achieve a second 36 AP burst. There's also AP reservation to consider, though; could ease things a bit by the second round.

Personally, I'm not the biggest fan of everything you must juggle to fit shit into your available AP in Underrail. I'm very glad it's not a simplistic system, and requires build and itemization planning and preparation to get the most out of, but at the same time Styg's smug Serbian ass will do stuff like tack on an AP or two to "balance" shit (Spearhead going from 25 to 26 being the iconic example). The square-peg, round-hole nature of AP management does irk me from time to time.
 
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That is very nice. It's worth noting though that firing 60% more bullets at 20% less damage per is an overall 28% damage increase without Full Auto, while with Full Auto, you're firing 43% more bullets for about a 15% overall damage increase. That's before resistances, which might tend to lower these figures a bit more compared to higher-damage individual bullets; also, the power of W2C lessens based on caliber. Particularly after the W2C nerf, 5mm W2C stats vs 9mm W2C stats is a non-trivial consideration. This is especially true in Expedition: AKA Everything Has Armor, Fuck You.

So it's more damage, but not insanely more.

Still and all, it's more damage, a bit more crit chance, only 2 less optimal, cheaper ammo as well, and lower AP cost. It's further worth noting however that 12 is a very particular quantity of AP that triples up to 36, breaking what one might term the "70 barrier" and preventing you from throwing a grenade without an additional source of AP or from firing a second burst even with Adrenaline Shot, Contraction, or Blitz. That second burst requires Vitality Power or a combination of Adrenaline, Contraction, and/or Blitz to achieve a second 36 AP burst. There's also AP reservation to consider, though; could ease things a bit by the second round.
Fits perfectly if you have two points in commando spec and bullet strap belt. Adrenaline or contraction for +20 AP and the refund from commando mean you have 76 AP to play with. That's enough to burst twice (and then again with the commando free burst) and reload. You can also spec the feat that makes contraction stronger so it's +22 AP so you can burst twice without needing to kill something every round, though that doesn't cover reloading.
Also one other thing to consider is that HK416 stacks concentrated fire much more quickly, so it's actually better against really tough enemies. It's great at everything. Kinda funny, since before the update it used to be pretty pointless since the M16 was better and available earlier. Now it's been buffed into an absolute monster.
 

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Ah, yeah. The last time I played AR, Commando didn't have a specialization, because it was pre-Expedition.

The general takeaway here is that the Steyr-Auch is perfect for a sniper's sidearm with one or two feats and no specs invested, whereas the KH is great for a dedicated sprayer build. Also, a sniper will tend to have higher PER/Guns skill than an AR build, so the damage of those fewer rounds will be extra-premium.
 

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I deployed four sets of three fishing rods each (twelve total) in the three major pools and the innermost pool of the Siphoner Pools in the Black Sea.

Not only do pre-deployed fishing rods save you the hassle of deploying and dismantling rods, but they also allow you to fish stealthily, so that you don't have to shoot fifteen siphoners or seven psi beetles every time you want to go fishing.

Results of initial deployment:

250520_20220327155823_1.png


Translated, that's key components for three doses of Third Eye, three Supersoldier Drugs, two vials of Regenerative Mixture, two doses of Bullhead, a vial of Black Dragon Poison, and various fodder for Super Health Hypos (of which Crawler Poison is the real gatekeeper), mass quantities of Jumping Beans, and also some shit no one cares about.

Of course, for Merry Meandering Merchants such as myself, the pentapus is the real MVP, because every single one represents a Psionic Reinvigorator, AKA the best way to extract significant amounts of charons from medical vendors.
 

Blaine

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My total fishing rod collection is up to an even 60. You can grab 10-12 rods per complete merchant run, depending on whether or not you remember you're trying to accumulate fishing rods.

I'm also going to test this thing out, and compare to the Steyr-Auch. Nominal damage potential without crits is in excess of 300 per shell on average (taking into account 6p percentage and Guns skill damage bonus), so approximately 1200 per burst, provided of course that every pellet hits. I can still reach 50% total crit chance with Seeker Goggles, my feats, and a Focus Stim, although the crit bonus is rubbish. If I feel I prefer it to the Steyr-Auch, I'll probably take Leading Shot as my level 30 feat. Otherwise, I suppose I'll go with either Commando or Suppressive Fire (I already have Opportunist) and stick with the Steyr-Auch.

I used a semi-auto shotgun as a sidearm during the early game, and it worked well except when enemies had exceptional Evasion. It still worked okay then, but "you must buy Leading Shot if you're maining a shotgun" is an apparent factor.

250520_20220327180543_1.png
 

Blaine

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Locusts BTFO. :lol:

250520_20220327212345_1.png


Snipe doesn't rely on criticals to deal damage, so despite hives being immune to critical hits, deleting them from afar is easy. Then I simply toss a magnesium grenade onto the deployments and use a 7.62mm Rapid Jaguar LS to pick off any stragglers/survivors—virtually all of whom will then be lit up for Ambush.

If things go wrong, or there's a second nest nearby that deploys, well, I'm wearing infused hopper gear and I have Sprint and Jumping Bean. See ya!
 

Blaine

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In an interesting twist, it turns out that Aegis and the Serpentborn employ very similar strategy and tactics. In a better world, perhaps they could have set aside their differences, learned from one another, and lived together in harmony.

We may never know.
What I do know is that I've probably never before combined a Frag Grenade Mk IV with a Frag Mine Mk IV so spectacularly.

what_a_shame.png


 

ItsChon

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I can't get an exact reading right now because I don't have the materials, but I'm going to put together a Super String q160+ Tornado at some point, and I absolutely assure you the damage per bolt will be no more than 25-30% higher than a single bullet fired from the Steyr-Auch, and with an additional 125% mech resistance penalty, as well as only 3/4 the optimal. Crossbows truly were designed to cause suffering in this game, by someone who has likely never laid hands on a crossbow.

Yes, the range even of 9mm Parabellum fired from a carbine is much greater than that of a broadhead bolt, but if ranges were actually realistic in this game, a novice would be able to fire a sniper rifle accurately from one corner of a screen in Foundry to the other. An expert would be able to fire a precision rifle accurately from one side of all of Foundry to the other.

Meanwhile, I challenge anyone to hunt a deer with potshots from a Steyr AUG 9mm conversion.

I just can't let it go. I don't want crossbows to be shit, it really annoys me.
It's not as simplistic as you're making it seem. First of all, Crossbows are stealthy while AR bullets are not. Second of all, Crossbow bolts can be outfitted with multiple different types of utility so that you can deal with a large variety of situations and enemy types. Third of all, Crossbow bolts operate at a different velocity and are not subject to ballistic plate bullet penalties, which is very important when dealing with energy shields and different types of armor. All three of these things are benefits the Crossbow has over the AR, and they aren't insignificant. They are archetype and scenario defining differences that provides a ton of RP and dungeon design potential to the game. Styg sadly hasn't incorporate many bosses that are specifically geared towards dealing with one style, or if he has, he has done so at a lower degree than is possible, and the same thing can be said of dungeons that are geared towards specific play styles, but Underrail's systems are so well designed that such things are possible. Not every build is going to be as good as another. Crossbows have their own niche and can be quite strong. You trigger me every time you make these comparisons that have nothing to do with anything, as if they're giving credence to your personal vendetta against crossbows.
 

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It's not as simplistic as you're making it seem.

I've been fuming about Crossbows for going on eight years. You will lose this debate, because I've considered the issue from all angles.

First of all, Crossbows are stealthy while AR bullets are not.

This is the perennial justification for Crossbows' inferiority, but the problem is that Crossbows aren't good enough at killing quietly to justify their incredible disadvantages. The bolts around which the weapon is actually balanced—the ones that pop, fizz, and zap—are not quiet. Regular bolts and special bolts that are silent are a joke compared to the damage output of, say, a silenced Spec Ops SMG, a gunslinger's pistol, various silent and 100% accurate psi combinations, et cetera, not to mention sniper rifles, which can actually kill four or five enemies in one go using no special crafting components whatsoever, even though they don't do so quietly.

If five bodies fall in a room, and no one is around to hear the shots, have I achieved stealth? We don't need the Ferryman to figure that one out.

Second of all, Crossbow bolts can be outfitted with multiple different types of utility so that you can deal with a large variety of situations and enemy types. Third of all, Crossbow bolts operate at a different velocity and are not subject to ballistic plate bullet penalties, which is very important when dealing with energy shields and different types of armor.

In one breath, you describe the fact that Crossbows can be fired stealthily; in the next, you describe all the whiz, bang, pop, and fizz they're capable of. This is because, unless there is only one or at most two enemies present, noisy hostilities will inevitably commence when relying on Crossbows. You know it, I know it, we all know it.

Ballistic plate penalties are largely irrelevant when employing W2C ammo against enemies' mediocre armor statistics, even after the nerf. My 5mm Expertise Jaguar could obliterate a tin can in one burst while attracting absolutely zero of his pals from the next room over. Also, crossbow bolts incur mechanical resistance maluses at all times, almost like reverse hollow points. And that is their biggest weakness: Crossbows are absolute garbage versus heavy armor.

Nor am I impressed by impact speed energy shield penetration, because when using a non-gimped stealth or ambush weapon to attack enemies, they usually don't even get a chance to turn the shield on; and if they do, I'll EMP them. Of course, when using Crossbows, you might not have an EMP grenade available, because your slots will occupied by all the noisy bolts you'll inevitably have to use in the non-stealthy pitched battle that will follow the subpar ambush burst capability of Crossbows.

All three of these things are benefits the Crossbow has over the AR, and they aren't insignificant. They are archetype and scenario defining differences that provides a ton of RP and dungeon design potential to the game.

One of the side benefits to specializing in a weapon type from the Guns category is that all of the many other types of Guns-related weapons are available to you, including chemical and energy pistols, albeit unspecialized or partially synergized/specialized. With Crossbows, you spend the same amount of skill points and have access to... Crossbows. My endgame sniper is able to erase sea serpents with a sidearm AR or shotgun with absolutely no additional feats whatsoever.

The issue with Crossbows is that they're mediocre in every way, and have a very significant weakness (heavy armor) shared by very few other entire weapon skill categories. Their vaunted utility and versatility come at the cost of crossbows being the only weapon archetype for the Crossbows skill, as well as special bolts hogging utility slots and eating feats like candy. Crossbows excel at nothing. They can't run the table on a field of enemies like a sniper rifle can, they can't systematically and silently burst down a tight group of enemies in a small room like an SMG can, they can't rake an entire enemy platoon like an AR can, and the special bolts are arguably not as strong as top-tier grenades despite hogging the utility slots—let alone psi powers.

Add to this that poisons and bleed are the only other real avenue beyond pop and fizz bolts, in this game where your body count often needs to be at least one per turn... yikes.

A crossbow is basically a gimped (far less damage and range, no Shooting Spree) sniper rifle, justified by the fact that it's quiet, combined with a gimped hybridization of psi powers and grenades tacked on, justified by... the fact that they'd be totally unusuable without them, I suppose.
 
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Crossbows aren't weak against armour. Shock bolts do several hundred electric damage on crits, and they stun on top of that. You can open with a molotov to start ambush and then spam several thousand electric damage worth of bolts before anyone is allowed to move. They could be completely immune to mechanical damage and they'd still die. Unless they're a naga or a psi crab, but you can take them with acid. Better make it rusting or corrosive acid for the nagas though. But by the time you're fighting nagas you can probably make mk3 emp grenades and keep them stunned for effectively forever so whatever.
 

Blaine

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Crossbows aren't weak against armour. Shock bolts do several hundred electric damage on crits, and they stun on top of that. You can open with a molotov to start ambush and then spam several thousand electric damage worth of bolts before anyone is allowed to move. They could be completely immune to mechanical damage and they'd still die. Unless they're a naga or a psi crab, but you can take them with acid. Better make it rusting or corrosive acid for the nagas though. But by the time you're fighting nagas you can probably make mk3 emp grenades and keep them stunned for effectively forever so whatever.

I'll grant you this: I haven't played a Crossbows build since before crossbows were buffed. I played them the hard way, prior to the existence of the Elemental Bolts feat, the Ambush feat, or acid bolts. My next playthrough, aggravating though I anticipate it to be, will need to be a Crossbows playthrough.

Everything you've just described relies on the use of grenades. Crossbows are optimized for Traps synergy, they're supposed to be somewhat stealthy, and special bolts compete for utility slots, so relying on loud-ass grenades and the ever-popular Ambush to prop up crossbows is a suspect defense of the weapon at best. If I'm using grenades and alerting the entire zone anyway, why in the fuck do I need a supposedly silent crossbow?

Realistically, Ambush empowers all ranged weapons, not just crossbows, while grenades add heavy AoE damage to any build. That whole scenario you just described only proves the power of Ambush and grenades, not the power of crossbows. My sniper has Ambush and uses grenades, but frequently gets by without them. I can kill a Naga Protector with a single round of ammunition that Kevin in Foundry sells by the dozen. I don't need to use crates of grenades and an endless stream of molotovs to activate Ambush in order to constantly prop up a severely underpowered weapon. I use traps and grenades very sparingly, except when "fighting the entire town" (as in my screenshot above).

A Shock Bolt Mk III dispenser that relies heavily on independent sources of additional damage really just goes to show that Crossbows has failed on a conceptual level. You might as well be using a 40mm grenade launcher at that point. The way crossbows were originally conceived to be used doesn't fit how Underrail actually plays in practice... at least, not for the player character. In the hands of enemies, crossbows can be quite potent, because poisons mean a lot more to the player, as do energy shields (depending on build), and getting surprised by a stealthed crossbowman can hurt due to the fact that you're just one human being, not a horde of enemies.
 
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Well, you don't have to use ambush if you don't want to. You can sacrifice a little perception and go survival instincts. You can go deadly snares. You can just stack crit chance equipment if you want, even if that's not totally reliable.
I don't really care how crossbows were originally conceived, I care about how they are now. I want them to be good enough to finish the game on dominating, and to play differently enough from other weapon types to be interesting. And I think they do both of those things, so in my opinion they're okay.
 
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I mean, maybe, but if said weak build can still finish the game on dom as long as it uses those easily available grenades/traps/stealth then what's the problem?
Also I said you could go survival instincts for your crit chance anyway. Or use incendiary bolts and hope for the 50% ignite to use enemies as light sources. Or use flares, they're not grenades. Or go versatility and use lemurian blaster as a flaregun in your second weapon slot, since you don't really need a second crossbow. Ambush gets boosted by stealth skill but it's not like you need to actually enter stealth mode.
 

ItsChon

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This is the perennial justification for Crossbows' inferiority, but the problem is that Crossbows aren't good enough at killing quietly to justify their incredible disadvantages. The bolts around which the weapon is actually balanced—the ones that pop, fizz, and zap—are not quiet.
Could be mistaken, but as far as I know, only the shock bolt makes a sound. The acid and fire bolts are silent, which allows you to proc elemental bolts and assassinate people quietly. This point is moot.
Regular bolts and special bolts that are silent are a joke compared to the damage output of, say, a silenced Spec Ops SMG, a gunslinger's pistol, various silent and 100% accurate psi combinations, et cetera, not to mention sniper rifles, which can actually kill four or five enemies in one go using no special crafting components whatsoever, even though they don't do so quietly.

If five bodies fall in a room, and no one is around to hear the shots, have I achieved stealth? We don't need the Ferryman to figure that one out.
I haven't fully played a silenced Spec Ops SMG, but gunslingers and snipers are not stealthy options, and psionics have no stealthy ways of dealing with robotic enemies. Crossbows have their own niche, and they fill it well. They're the only form of nonpsionic, stealth weaponry that functions at a distance. With the requisite feats and an adrenaline shot, you're able to shoot your weapon crossbow six times, with the possibility to kill on every shot if the crits go your way, with an average of three to five kills to be expected with average RNG. That's quite on par with Sniper Rifles. Do so while utilizing shock bolts/incendiary bolts, and whether you get a kill or not, you'll be in no danger when dealing with said enemies in the following turn. I just tested this on my saved XBow build on Dominating, so on hard I'm sure it would be even more powerful. Also, in places where stealth is important, the Ironheads Warehouse Depots for example, it doens't matter if you can kill six enemies in one turn if you blow your load. The alarm is going to get sounded, and have fun dealing with the following enemies that are going to come after you/plague you in the following maps. That's just one example, and as I said before, Underrail's system can easily facilitate more such dungeons/encounters, which would only increase the value of crossbows.
In one breath, you describe the fact that Crossbows can be fired stealthily; in the next, you describe all the whiz, bang, pop, and fizz they're capable of. This is because, unless there is only one or at most two enemies present, noisy hostilities will inevitably commence when relying on Crossbows. You know it, I know it, we all know it.
You're literallty talking out of your ass. I have an Elemental Bolts Crossbow build at level 25 on Dominating in my save game files as we speak that's far from optimal, and I can say without a shadow of a doubt that this is not true. You literally admitted later on in this thread that the last time you played a Crossbow build was ages ago. Three to four enemies can easily be dispatched with some regularity (more with good RNG), and without having to use broken feats like ambush or survival instincts. It can all be done completely quietly, without the use of any traps/shockbolts.
The issue with Crossbows is that they're mediocre in every way, and have a very significant weakness (heavy armor) shared by very few other entire weapon skill categories. Their vaunted utility and versatility come at the cost of crossbows being the only weapon archetype for the Crossbows skill, as well as special bolts hogging utility slots and eating feats like candy. Crossbows excel at nothing. They can't run the table on a field of enemies like a sniper rifle can, they can't systematically and silently burst down a tight group of enemies in a small room like an SMG can, they can't rake an entire enemy platoon like an AR can, and the special bolts are arguably not as strong as top-tier grenades despite hogging the utility slots—let alone psi powers.
Spark Mandriller already explaine why this is not true. Crossbows have no problem dealing with heavy armor, and them being the only weapon in their skills category should not be counted against their effectiveness in combat. Not to mention the fact that I dislike using weapons that aren't what my build was designed around anyway.
I already explained how Crossbows can easily "run the table" just like a sniper rifle can, and the gameplay style of Crossbows is completely different from SMGs/ARs, so them not being able to burst down hordes of enemies has nothing to do with anything. As for combat utilities taking up "valuable" utility spaces, Acid is very situational and you only have Shock/Incendiary Bolts taking up two out of four of your utility slots, with the possibility of up to three free slots with the correct belt/feat. There is a ton of builds that make do with that many utility slots the entire game, thus nullifying another one of your "cons".

You freely admit to being ignorant to the recent state of Crossbows in the meta, and then proceed to make sweeping claims about how they're shit and not worth using. Crossbows don't have to be the strongest archetype in the game for them to be considered worth using, or fun to play, so your comparisons are useless. The archetype is quite strong, and can easily finish dominating with average optimization. Play the updated builds, and then come talk to me.
 

Twiglard

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Results of initial deployment:

View attachment 23537

Translated, that's key components for three doses of Third Eye, three Supersoldier Drugs, two vials of Regenerative Mixture, two doses of Bullhead, a vial of Black Dragon Poison, and various fodder for Super Health Hypos (of which Crawler Poison is the real gatekeeper), mass quantities of Jumping Beans, and also some shit no one cares about.

Can you make the Supersoldier Drug or any other endgame drugs before DC now? The wiki says it requires tchortling brains.
 

Blaine

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Could be mistaken, but as far as I know, only the shock bolt makes a sound. The acid and fire bolts are silent, which allows you to proc elemental bolts and assassinate people quietly. This point is moot.

It's not a moot point when shock bolts are clearly the elemental bolt that Crossbows players rely on the most, and the ones used to justify the current balancing of the weapon.

I haven't fully played a silenced Spec Ops SMG, but gunslingers and snipers are not stealthy options, and psionics have no stealthy ways of dealing with robotic enemies.

With Spec Ops SMG, you can clear every single Ironhead out of Warehouse Block Beta without any of them knowing you were there or what hit them.

Gunslingers absolutely are stealthy if using a silenced pistol, and I'm sure there are plenty of builds that could take out a roomful of enemies with one.

Snipers aren't quiet, and neither are crossbows when using noisy bolts, such as the shock bolt you yourself used as an example of how crossbows can clear a room.

Except a sniper rifle can clear a whole-ass screen. The enemies needn't be bunched together to stack shock bolts onto.
 

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