Underrail: The Incline Awakens

[Parabalus]

The virgin Quickload Flurry vs the chad Survival Instincts 300% crit bonus Critical Power build.

What do you do when flurry does not connect?

Well, basically:
*Knife - I mean it's mostly a knife build already sans feats, so especially early on, knife can gib enemies even with low AP or at least trigger Cheap Shots
*Trusty Taser, which I am using almost all game
*Trusty Flashbangs
*Trusty Stasis
*Die

No you can't. Not in most cases. Not with CON 3 on Dom. If flurry fails shortly after initiating combat, you're dead and you have to reload.

You can just run away, pop haste+adrenaline, stasis + LTC (Tigranes build doesn't have premed, makes it easier).

Not really different from other high damage builds, if you get caught out your toast.

 

[Tigranes]

I never go too far with sword builds, i get frustrated too often relying on flurry to proc.

The virgin Quickload Flurry vs the chad Survival Instincts 300% crit bonus Critical Power build.

What do you do when flurry does not connect?

Well, basically:
*Knife - I mean it's mostly a knife build already sans feats, so especially early on, knife can gib enemies even with low AP or at least trigger Cheap Shots
*Trusty Taser, which I am using almost all game
*Trusty Flashbangs
*Trusty Stasis
*Die

No you can't. Not in most cases. Not with CON 3 on Dom. If flurry fails shortly after initiating combat, you're dead and you have to reload.

Flurry requires lots of feats. The SI build is similar, but you can skip (based on the Flurry build by normie above):

• Onslaught
• Opportunist
• Blindsiding
• Cheap Shots

OK bro my playthrough doing swimmingly with CON 3 on Dom must have been a psychosomatic illusion concocted by Big Sword

What's next are you going to loudly fight about how SI+CP epistol builds are superior with Tom, your imaginary friend who disagrees

Or talk us to the shocking realisation that AR builds are strong

 

[Twiglard]

OK bro my playthrough doing swimmingly with CON 3 on Dom

None of the other builds have these types of problems. Shooting Spree does only slightly, but these shots are front-loaded and there's only 2 of them. This is bad design plain and simple. Missing attacks on tased enemies with a constant non-removable 15% fail chance is a combat system design anti-pattern.

How far into the game are you anyway? You'll be doing fights like the Lemurian Grand Archive and Lurker prison eventually and it's fights like these where this bad design is most pronounced.

 

[Tigranes]

Lv22, like I already said. Did lurker base in like level 16, went fine, on the smoother side relatively. Dex sword definitely seems more flexible than Str sword, like I already said.

Only areas where it gets stuck are wide open killzones like the Free Drone Leroy charge, and I would assume Neville Robots as well.

Sword remains an inferior choice, like I already said, but I'm finding it's easily DOM viable as glass cannon.

 

[Trashos]

I don't think it is bad design. I emphasize that I have never played Swords, but to me it looks like they cater for players who enjoy the gambling nature of the build. I am not that type of player myself, but not all weapons need to cater for all types of players.

SI builds (which I have played a lot) have their own set of challenges. I died in all random encounters where I didn't win initiative, for example. Then there are some fights where I expect to be hit, and all the busywork of reducing and increasing your own HP in order to deal with special cases. Very powerful builds, with their own set of problems, and I am not always in the mood for SI. They do look more appropriate for serious playthroughs than swords to me, but I haven't played swords.

 

[Parabalus]

Sword really isn't very different from dagger/fist/hammer melee, if you run out of AP in the open you're toast. Play very similarly too.

Less clicking though.

 

[lukaszek]

dunno about swords, but with daggers you just run away with your 100 movement points out of the harms way

 

[CHEMS]

The virgin Quickload Flurry vs the chad Survival Instincts 300% crit bonus Critical Power build.

But that's the one i was using, with tungsten sword. SI + Critical Power, i didn't have too much fun with this one. I don't enjoy pure melee builds that much, even monk builds don't please me. Also, naval combat with melee is hell. I like sledge builds though, might try a SI stealthy hammer boy one day.

 

[Trashos]

Sword really isn't very different from dagger/fist/hammer melee, if you run out of AP in the open you're toast. Play very similarly too.

Less clicking though.

Not true for DEX fist, which is my favorite build. When you can attack that much per round, bad luck averages out. Which is why I generally prefer builds with a lot of attacks per round. And if it is a STR build, you 'd better have a good armor and CON.

Kvives are similar to DEX fists in that regard, with the exception of the Cut-Throat move (which should have 100% hit chance imo).

Aren't hammer builds supposed to be tanky?

 

[Tigranes]

Fancy footwork does the job for me in some situations, though another build might go Sprint as well. Dex fist/knife I would certainly rank above for the same reason as Trashos - another reason why crit epistolero is king.

Tank hammer usually means slow, at which point it's a straight off inferior to AR, no? I've enjoyed the few tanks I've played but...

 

[CHEMS]

Aren't hammer builds supposed to be tanky?

All my builds are glass cannon builds, and if a build isn't i'll turn into a glass cannon. Thing is, melee builds being frail is very risky so i need stealth. Now picture one guy in a rat suit wielding a 100kg hammer being unseen till he bonks a lunatic for 600 hit points. That was some tom & jerry shit.

 

[Trashos]

You can play any build however you want, but there are obvious synergies. Hammers need strength and are slow, so to me they look tailormade for tanks. You can choose to not play them tanky, but then it is not the weapon's fault.

 

[Tygrende]

Hammers do have the overall greatest synergy with tankiness in the game. Spears can be better at dealing with melee, but overall the crown goes to hammers. You can play them without high AP and still be tankier than other builds without high AP.

They are pretty much the only weapon that absolutely has to be STR-based and should be pumping it very high. With every other melee weapon you can at least kinda sorta be DEX-based, but the high STR requirement on hammers coupled with very high damage bonus for each point above the req means going DEX makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Other weapons just need a comparatively low investment in STR to meet weapon/feat requirements. This by itself means nothing because STR doesn't make you tanky, but:

1. Juggernaut requires 7 STR.
2. Metal armor requires at least 8.
3. Mushroom brew gives 10% mech damage reduction and +1 STR in exchange for a penalty to DEX, PER, psi skills and killing your psi regen. Every build other than psiless hammer will be hurt by this to a degree. Psiless also happens to be tankier because no HP penalty from psi emapthy.
4. Since STR is your main attribute that you're pumping anyways, instead of being an added cost like with other builds that have to pump something else, you have way more spare points to spend on CON and 7 WIL for stoic. And you really don't need any other stat on psiless hammer. Even 5 INT for cheap shots and expose weakness is optional when it's almost mandatory for other melee.

Beyond that, the must-have belt for hammers that gives their attacks a 5 AP reduction also grants +5% mech damage reduction. There's also the fact that super slam damage scales with max HP, but the feat is honestly very weak and there's little reason to pick it most of the time. Hammers in general have few must-have feats, so that also frees up a lot of space for tanking feats.

 

[Parabalus]

You can play any build however you want, but there are obvious synergies. Hammers need strength and are slow, so to me they look tailormade for tanks. You can choose to not play them tanky, but then it is not the weapon's fault.

You can build hammers with 10 AGI too, no reason for them to be tanky, outside of 'free' metal armor since you have high STR.

Not true for DEX fist, which is my favorite build. When you can attack that much per round, bad luck averages out. Which is why I generally prefer builds with a lot of attacks per round. And if it is a STR build, you 'd better have a good armor and CON.

Fist also has a lot of RNG, but it's true that the more you attack the closer to the average you are. The build is just more powerful too, makes RNG less noticeable.

You can play any build however you want, but there are obvious synergies. Hammers need strength and are slow, so to me they look tailormade for tanks. You can choose to not play them tanky, but then it is not the weapon's fault.

Why would hammers be slow? Because they attack less per round, leading to fewer FF procs?
Their high AP costs mean they need more mobility, not less, since spending even some action AP on movement leads to a huge damage loss.

Kvives are similar to DEX fists in that regard, with the exception of the Cut-Throat move (which should have 100% hit chance imo).

Knife is really similar to sword, with a knife your damage range in a particular round has a huge variance, you almost always adapt on the fly depending on how much you crit.

 

[razvedchiki]

if using stealth, would it be better to use smgs or assault rifle?

 

[CHEMS]

You can play any build however you want, but there are obvious synergies. Hammers need strength and are slow, so to me they look tailormade for tanks. You can choose to not play them tanky, but then it is not the weapon's fault.

It was actually a pretty good build. Regalia offers good mobility already, i don't remember the detais of the build, but i think i had hit and run and sprint. Very high stealth, most of the points were in strength obviously, but i had points in agi too. Not to mention obligatory TM support for even more mobility and action. Also thirst for blood works wonders with hammers. You get a stack when you kill stuff, so you don't actually need to worry about bleed. Balors hammer deleted one guy per swing, almost garanteed. There's also the fully specced pummel which gives you a free 50% weaker hammer swing, which actually could be interesting if you use the explosive cap thingy.

 

[CHEMS]

if using stealth, would it be better to use smgs or assault rifle?

Stealth is good for everything, but bear in mind ARs cannot be silenced. Still very useful for positioning before the fight or vanishing grenades should things get out of hand. But my anwser is it's better on smgs. I'm running versatility + expertise, high stealth. Refurbished MP5 and Mini Izu, hitting pretty hard with special ammo.

 

[Trashos]

With knives you also have plenty attacks, even if they don't quite reach fist numbers (but they get Ripper to make up for it). They are very similar to DEX fists.
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The original point was about an obvious issue Sword builds have (the high risk thing), and whether other weapons share the same issue. So to me it doesn't look like other weapons share the same issue unless you specifically design the build to have the issue. That's not the same as a weapon fundamentally having the issue. That's something you chose to do, for whatever reason.

Other melee builds that have STR are not based on keeping up the offensive. That makes a big difference. Sledgehammers as a build does not require you to keep moving forward to make the most of it. You can go full defensive with hammers and it doesn't diminish the build's advantages (not only that, but I argued for the exact opposite -there is synergy!). With swords it does diminish the build's advantages, because then you are not taking full advantage of the sword's offensive capabilities. That's the opposite of synergy. The risk is inherent to the weapon here (to its main feat, to be exact).

 

[lukaszek]

but if you save & reload it works 100% of the time!

 

[Parabalus]

With knives you also have plenty attacks, even if they don't quite reach fist numbers (but they get Ripper to make up for it). They are very similar to DEX fists.
--------

The original point was about an obvious issue Sword builds have (the high risk thing), and whether other weapons share the same issue. So to me it doesn't look like other weapons share the same issue unless you specifically design the build to have the issue. That's not the same as a weapon fundamentally having the issue. That's something you chose to do, for whatever reason.

Other melee builds that have STR are not based on keeping up the offensive. That makes a big difference. Sledgehammers as a build does not require you to keep moving forward to make the most of it. You can go full defensive with hammers and it doesn't diminish the build's advantages (not only that, but I argued for the exact opposite -there is synergy!). With swords it does diminish the build's advantages, because then you are not taking full advantage of the sword's offensive capabilities. That's the opposite of synergy. The risk is inherent to the weapon here (to its main feat, to be exact).

How do you design knives around not having the RNG issue?

Take a standard Expedition native pack of around 10 mobs - depending on how much you crit, especially on the first mob, you will either clear all 10 in one round, or struggle to finish a few and have to retreat.

Having played DEX swords and knives I find them pretty similar.

 

[ItsChon]

Since you guys are talking about swords, this build here seems like the strongest sword build conceived.

https://stygiansoftware.com/forums/index.php?topic=7739.0

 

[CHEMS]

Since you guys are talking about swords, this build here seems like the strongest sword build conceived.

https://stygiansoftware.com/forums/index.php?topic=7739.0

Looks good, but don't know why the guy went for persuasion instead of mercantile, though.

 

[lukaszek]

How do you design knives around not having the RNG issue?

Take a standard Expedition native pack of around 10 mobs - depending on how much you crit, especially on the first mob, you will either clear all 10 in one round, or struggle to finish a few and have to retreat.

Having played DEX swords and knives I find them pretty similar.

you dont need to finish each enemy. You also have cheap shots. Enemies that skip round also make it harder to reach you, possibly creating a choke point. You make it sound like retreating is bad. You just move out of harms way and close back in next turn.

 

[Trashos]

I don't know, I have not done the inner locations of the Natives yet. I have only done the coasts, where I attack by sea in my tanky Devastator.

But why do we need to go that far, the question is what happens against an average party of enemies, say 4-5 enemies. This is a situation we find ourselves in all the time, and it should paint a clear picture. With a knife you know you are going to have, say, 18 attacks at 5AP, and you can estimate whether you have enough to finish off everyone if things go reasonably badly. So you find the enemies you can safely kill and move forward.

With a Sword... even at 5% for the first flurry to miss, the first flurry is going to miss several dozens of times throughout the game. Unless you wish to go on a reload tour, you basically have to approach all encounters as if the first flurry misses. OK, let's say it misses, then what? At this point you don't have enough to kill them with a sword in this round. Tigranes gave his solutions, and he is not totally impressed with the safety of his build. The situation is very different to the one with knives.

(I also see Harperfan's build above. As we see, he depends on Evasion, Dodge and possibly the TM ability that adds to them. I cannot judge this rn, I haven't used Dodge and Evasion for 100 years.)

 

[ItsChon]

Since you guys are talking about swords, this build here seems like the strongest sword build conceived.

https://stygiansoftware.com/forums/index.php?topic=7739.0

Looks good, but don't know why the guy went for persuasion instead of mercantile, though.

I personally always go persuasion, and you can forego pickpocket for persuasion. It's a lot more accessible with the new waist packs.