World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 from Hardsuit Labs

[Ibn Sina]

Taleworlds will develop VTMB.

 

[Lambach]

Like Hardsuit?

Giving it to a new and untested studio has a 90% chance of resulting in a shitty game, but also a 10% chance of resulting in something that can actually be called a worthy Bloodlines sequel.

Giving it to a studio that the Paradox's CEO considers a "very reputable developer" has an absolute, 100% infallible chance of resulting in a game so mediocre and boring that it won't be worth anyone's time to even make fun of it, let alone anything else.

Dunno about you, but I'd roll the dice on the former. It would probably be cheaper for Paradox as well, since they can get away with paying this new, unknown studio peanuts. It's not like Bloodlines 2 is actually going to make them any money, no matter what they do and how good the final product is, not after how they completely botched the original Hardsuit/Mitsoda version and completely killed all the interest and hype among the vast majority of potential customers. The best they can hope for is a Duke Nukem Forever-type of situation.

 

[Gargaune]

it won't be worth anyone's time to even make fun of it

 

[Vincente]

Dunno about you, but I'd roll the dice on the former. It would probably be cheaper for Paradox as well, since they can get away with paying this new, unknown studio peanuts

Did they get away with paying Hardsuit, an unknown studio, peanuts? So your best suggestion is giving the project to bunch of no-name studios until they hit the jackpot? Why not give it to actual people who have experience making such games? At least they can (probably) deliver, unlike Hardsuit.

not after how they completely botched the original Hardsuit/Mitsoda version and completely killed all the interest and hype among the vast majority of potential customers.

Why are you shifting the blame towards Paradox though? Hardsuit themselves made a pitch, Paradox liked it, and Hardsuit failed to deliver this product.

 

[Lambach]

So your best suggestion is giving the project to bunch of no-name studios until they hit the jackpot?

No, my best suggestion is to just bury the whole thing, pretend it never happened and stop shitting on our collective memories of the original Bloodlines. But apparently, Paradox is not willing to do that, so we have to settle for the next best thing.

Why not give it to actual people who have experience making such games? At least they can (probably) deliver, unlike Hardsuit.

Name 1 (one) studio with experience in making such games that you think can pull off a worthy sequel. And not just "deliver", in the sense of accomplishing the bare minimum of pushing some boring, mediocre turd out the door, but "deliver" in the sense of creating a worthwhile sequel of comparable quality to the original.

Why are you shifting the blame towards Paradox though? Hardsuit themselves made a pitch, Paradox liked it, and Hardsuit failed to deliver this product.

I worded that poorly, I didn't mean to imply Paradox were primarily to blame for the fuck-up and I agree it was mostly on Hardsuit. But the fact remains that any and all hype for Bloodlines 2 is dead and gone, so really, Paradox stands to make pretty much nothing on it, regardless of how it eventually comes out. They're not Activision or Ubisoft whose annual Far Call of Dutycry release is guaranteed to make a gazillion dollars no matter what, they're pitching a fairly niche game to a fairly niche crowd and need all the good will they can get - good will that they've completely squandered if you ask me, regardless of whose fault it was.

 

[Vincente]

No, my best suggestion is to just bury the whole thing, pretend it never happened and stop shitting on our collective memories of the original Bloodlines.

I do agree that Paradox should have named this game something other than Bloodlines 2, and I also want this dead and buried, but if they can release something that has the quarter of atmosphere Bloodlines did, and the writing is good (I heard that Heart of the Apocalypse game had good writing for WtA standards), they can release what they want, I don't really care.

Name 1 (one) studio with experience in making such games that you think can pull off a worthy sequel.

Just dream studios, or possible studios? I'll do both:
Dream Studios: Wolfeye, Piranha Bytes, Harebrained Schemes(with Mitsoda)
Out of possible studios, I have no idea, I'm sure an industry shark like Roguey would know better, but I'd say Spiders, maybe. Paradox is already set on a dev though, so this is all pointless to discuss.

...they're pitching a fairly niche game to a fairly niche crowd and need all the good will they can get - good will that they've completely squandered if you ask me...

They used good will by trusting their flagship game to a bunch of no-names who had a good pitch idea, and it's clear that it didn't work out.

 

[Wesp5]

Why are you shifting the blame towards Paradox though? Hardsuit themselves made a pitch, Paradox liked it, and Hardsuit failed to deliver this product.

Somebody working on Bloodlines 2 told me that in the end Paradox didn't want the game they ordered in the beginning so they are indeed to blame to some extent!

 

[Larianshill]

didn't want the game they ordered at the beginning

What do you mean?

 

[Vincente]

Why are you shifting the blame towards Paradox though? Hardsuit themselves made a pitch, Paradox liked it, and Hardsuit failed to deliver this product.

Somebody working on Bloodlines 2 told me that in the end Paradox didn't want the game they ordered in the beginning so they are indeed to blame to some extent!

I seriously doubt that Paradox wanted guns to be temporary power ups, like in the last tech demo Hardsuit showed.

 

[Caim]

Apparently Paradox's CEO considered shutting the game down completely when they dropped HardSuit Labs, but eventually "received an interesting pitch" by a "very reputable and talented developer who has made a number of different games before.".

They hired Cleve, didn't they?

 

[Lambach]

I do agree that Paradox should have named this game something other than Bloodlines 2, and I also want this dead and buried, but if they can release something that has the quarter of atmosphere Bloodlines did, and the writing is good (I heard that Heart of the Apocalypse game had good writing for WtA standards), they can release what they want, I don't really care.

Tbh, this may be equally of a problem of both the modern writers/developers and the setting they're going with. Bloodlines largely owes its atmosphere to its source material, which was written mostly during the nineties and was influenced by the "new millennium dread" zeitgeist of the time, along many other typically 90's things. If you're going with modern source material being adapted by modern writers/developers, you're just shooting yourself in the foot when it comes to replicating that atmosphere. No doubt that some team out there somewhere could pull it off, but I can't think of a single well-known one that fits the bill.

But to reiterate, I'd much rather have anything Bloodlines-related buried and in Torpor (har-har) than having it butchered by some talentless, semi-literate dangerhair millennials.

Dream Studios: Wolfeye, Piranha Bytes, Harebrained Schemes(with Mitsoda)

Bruh. PB are good when it comes to world-building, but they're hopeless when it comes to writing quality dialogues, characters, plots etc, which was Bloodlines' main strength (Bloodlines didn't have to do world-building because it borrowed it from the PnP). As if all the Gothic and Risen games aren't proof of this. ELEX too.

Both Harebrained Schemes and Mitsoda are waaaaay past their prime. Hong Kong was already a noticeable drop in writing quality compared to Dragonfall (though Racter and Gaichu are the best two characters they've written, hands down) and the most recent stuff they're doing is banal, boring shit like fucking Battletech and Necropolis. The Mitsoda couple's "Dead State" alone is proof that Brain is but a shadow of what he once was (assuming he was ever anything worthwhile to begin with and not just a credit-hog).

I don't think Wolfeye fit the bill of a well-known studio, tbh.

They used good will by trusting their flagship game to a bunch of no-names who had a good pitch idea, and it's clear that it didn't work out.

It ain't gonna work out with the kind of studio that Paradox CEO is describing either, and that's a guarantee. They might push a complete product out sometime in 2023, but it's going to be forgotten and in the bargain bin 2 weeks post-release, tops. Paradox are playing it safe, which is understandable from the perspective of your average corporate suit, but it pretty much certainly guarantees a bland, color-by-the-numbers game that will be neither bad nor good enough to be remembered for long. Kinda like Inxile's initially overhyped Numa Numa that maybe 5 people in the world have any memory of today.

 

[Storyfag]

Paradox are playing it safe, which is understandable from the perspective of your average corporate suit, but it pretty much certainly guarantees a bland, color-by-the-numbers game that will be neither bad nor good enough to be remembered for long. Kinda like Inxile's initially overhyped Numa Numa

Dear Caine, let it not be THAT horrendous.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

The source material is trash, anything that's adapted from it will also be trash.
Seems pretty simple to me.

 

[Storyfag]

The source material is trash, anything that's adapted from it will also be trash.

Eh, I've already seen good PnP sessions utilising V5. While the basic premise IS trash, V5 still retains the majority of the juicy details earlier editions had. Just avoid stuff like Rudi and all will be well.

 

[jungl]

original bloodlines was a basic early 2000 bioware clone tier wrpg but with with the troikia jank. You visit 3 hubs then conclude the game in a final one. Had shit combat and dumbass design decisions that rewarded persuasion/stealth too much. They can give it to just about any developer and they would make a "worthy" sequel.

Jade empire, arcanum and other early 2000 titles were superior games

 

[ColaWerewolf]

I don't think that's it. Also in Grout's tapes is that tidbit about his own Sire being captured by human authorities and dying of exposure to the Sun shortly after Embracing him. His Sire seemed to have been a total nutjob Malkavian and his Embrace was just a product of her insanity, not a planned action. Had his wife gone though something similar, he would've probably mentioned that as well in the tapes along with the fact that most of her "symptoms" match his own, but there was never any mention of anything like that.

It's possible and even most likely that she is a vampire. Grout was just a psychiatrist, not some Mr Freeze uberscientist. With that in mind, it really makes no sense why he would put her on ice if she had a terminal disease. She'd die either way. In fact the only way she could survive being put on ice like that is if she were a vampire.
So let's say she gets a terminal disease, he doesn't know how to fix it, ends up Embracing her as the last available option, then puts her on ice until he can figure out a vampirism cure. He even talks about finding a "cure to this affliction".

"So impressed were they that they even offered me an office in their government... a rather high office by the sound of things. I believe I shall accept. If nothing else, it should provide a lofty vantage point... from which to observe the breadth and epidemiology of the afflictions... so that I may move more expeditiously toward a cure."

But we got a 'pitch' that we thought was convincing enough to run.

"Convincing enough" doesn't inspire much confidence considering that the previous bar was already set pretty low by Hardsuit. This and his comment about co-financing options makes me believe that they really haven't found a good developer to work with on this.

 

[Sratopotator]

original bloodlines was a basic early 2000 bioware clone tier wrpg but with with the troikia jank. You visit 3 hubs then conclude the game in a final one. Had shit combat and dumbass design decisions that rewarded persuasion/stealth too much. They can give it to just about any developer and they would make a "worthy" sequel.

Jade empire, arcanum and other early 2000 titles were superior games

Jade whatever-the-fuck Empire? You have to work on your bait posts a bit :D

 

[Storyfag]

I don't think that's it. Also in Grout's tapes is that tidbit about his own Sire being captured by human authorities and dying of exposure to the Sun shortly after Embracing him. His Sire seemed to have been a total nutjob Malkavian and his Embrace was just a product of her insanity, not a planned action. Had his wife gone though something similar, he would've probably mentioned that as well in the tapes along with the fact that most of her "symptoms" match his own, but there was never any mention of anything like that.

It's possible and even most likely that she is a vampire. Grout was just a psychiatrist, not some Mr Freeze uberscientist. With that in mind, it really makes no sense why he would put her on ice if she had a terminal disease. She'd die either way. In fact the only way she could survive being put on ice like that is if she were a vampire.
So let's say she gets a terminal disease, he doesn't know how to fix it, ends up Embracing her as the last available option, then puts her on ice until he can figure out a vampirism cure. He even talks about finding a "cure to this affliction".

"So impressed were they that they even offered me an office in their government... a rather high office by the sound of things. I believe I shall accept. If nothing else, it should provide a lofty vantage point... from which to observe the breadth and epidemiology of the afflictions... so that I may move more expeditiously toward a cure."

This is a decent interpretation, I will grant you that. Personally I always assumed she just died and he put her in formaldehyde but, being of unstable mind, didn't quite register the event as death, so still hoped for a cure.

 

[J1M]

I struggle to even imagine a scenario where this comes out and turns out to be something vaguely competent at this point.

The only reason it isn't cancelled is because they already spent the pre-order money.

 

[jungl]

Jade whatever-the-fuck Empire? You have to work on your bait posts a bit :D

Ya jade empire had better gameplay then that storyfag game bloodlines. Look I realize a lot of posters here have autism about vampires and enjoyed being weird sleeping in graveyards as a teen watching twilight and all that jazz but the reality of the situation folks is that bloodlines was a mediocre game. I was there day 1 and the game wasn't even playable without a patch or two.

 

[Black]

Zoomers call anything that has text in it story driven nowadays.

 

[J1M]

"Great" fucking call.

Whether it'll be the same project started under Hardsuit or something the fans will even want is another matter. For those of us who aren't fans, the forecast still reads cloudy with a high chance of popcorn.

I cannot imagine they'll be able to use much of the original code. Hardsuit had coded in the Unreal Engine for 20 years, and they couldn't get it to work properly. If the new company stays with the Unreal engine, you could save all the art assets, etc, but if there are changes to the story, location, etc etc.. its probably easier to start from scratch with your own "code language" (then again, i am not a dev, what do i know).

Good news, if you it was Unreal then all of the "code" would be visual flow charts called blueprints.

 

[J1M]

At this rate, Bloodlines 3 will come out before Bloodlines 2.

 

[Infinitron]

Not really anything new here, but RPS spoke to Paradox: https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/paradox-considered-cancelling-vampire-the-masquerade-bloodlines-2

Paradox considered cancelling Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines 2
After taking the RPG off its original developers



When Paradox Interactive made the remarkable decision to take Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines 2 away from its original developers, Hardsuit Labs, the company considered outright cancelling the game. That's according to returning CEO Fredrik Wester in a recent interview. Paradox still aren't saying who's making the World Of Darkness RPG now nor when it will be done, but apparently it's still happening?

The interview was with a Swedish news agency in Swedish, as seen on Placera. You can get the broad meaning from machine translation but the technology is imperfect, so I reached out to Paradox for a more accurate version of key parts.

"When we removed the game from the original developer we took a long look at whether we should cancel it or continue development," Wester said in the translation Paradox provided. "We were prepared to stop production completely, but we received a pitch that was persuasive enough for us to continue with. We have high hopes that this will be a good game that meets our players' desires."

Paradox still haven't said who has taken over making Bloodlines 2. Wester passed on answering a question about that in this interview, but did say they're "a very reputable and talented developer" who've made several games before. It's also unknown how much the new Bloodlines 2 resembles the old Bloodlines 2, though Wester seemingly said in this interview [currently going off Google Translate for this part, soz] that they can still use much of the work. For all anyone knows, that could mean anything from re-using art assets to picking up where Hardsuit left off. Hard to say when what happened is such a secret.


Some manner of vampiric overlording.

In July 2020, Paradox fired Brian Mitsoda, who was the sequel's narrative lead as well as a writer and designer on the original. Seemed bad; got worse. In February 2021, Paradox announced an even bigger change: they were taking Hardsuit off the game and handing development to another studio. It's astonishingly rare for that to happen once a game has hit the stage of previews and interviews. Hardsuit suffered layoffs after that.

I had always expected Bloodlines 2 to be a little cursed, given what happened with the first game. I did not expect that on the scale of curses, it would be around the level of "You, your kids, your grandkids, your great-grandkids, and your great-great-grandkids will be spitting teeth every time you sniff or sneeze, and not your own teeth, other teeth, mystery teeth, just teeth, surprise, it's teeth, here they come." But I still want to see what comes out when that game/those teeth arrives. I gotta see.

I also asked Paradox if they had anything new to share publicly about the game's development. They do not.

Paradox seemingly have trouble of their own. In recent months, several media reports and a leaked survey of union employees have made allegations of workplace problems for women in particular. Amidst this, Wester admitted "inappropriate behaviour" towards an employee at a company event in 2018. "Accountability starts from the top," he said.

 

[Lambach]

Eh, I've already seen good PnP sessions utilising V5. While the basic premise IS trash, V5 still retains the majority of the juicy details earlier editions had. Just avoid stuff like Rudi and all will be well.

Meh, V5 is essentially a soft reboot of the entire Masquerade lore/metaplot, but the end result is just unbearable trash, both mechanically and lore-wise. For example, you can't call something a "Clan" if its members don't share a common fucking bloodline from the same progenitor, ffs.

If you want to do away with all the bloat of Masquerade's overarching metaplot, just play Requiem instead - it's both better mechanically and it's more internally consistent than V5, and I'm saying this as someone who very much dislikes Requiem.