World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 from Hardsuit Labs

[Caim]

This is just so insulting. Between this and System Shock 3, that's two times that original developers revived classic IPs only for them to be handed over to randos. How did this happen twice?

It's pretty simple really. The devs who made the original games had a lot of passion and drive, whereas nowadays franchises have been reduced to the projected monetary value of their IPs.

I don't really expect anything good from a sequel made almost 20 years after the last installment (that's like a generation ship of theseus), but I would like to be surprised.

Should've given the game over to you to make it. At least Damsel would look good instead of like a dollar store Marlyn Manson.

 

[Tyranicon]

Should've given the game over to you to make it. At least Damsel would look good instead of like a dollar store Marlyn Manson.

Eh, I would've just made a low-budget porn game out of it. Which I'm still doing anyways without the IP, so no loss there.

 

[Caim]

Should've given the game over to you to make it. At least Damsel would look good instead of like a dollar store Marlyn Manson.

Eh, I would've just made a low-budget porn game out of it.

That's kind of the idea, yes.

 

[EvilWolf]

Why would they make this design choice when Clans are the meat of the lore is beyond my understanding. But it merely carried over to Bloodlines 2.

And Camarilla themselves would have you commit diablerie in order to join that clan you chose. It was pants on head tier retarded.

Is a thin-blood even capable of commiting diablerie? They aren't capable of embracing or blood bonding, and by extension ghouling. Are we expected to believe that somehow the only blood ritual they're capable of is the most powerful one?

 

[Storyfag]

Why would they make this design choice when Clans are the meat of the lore is beyond my understanding. But it merely carried over to Bloodlines 2.

And Camarilla themselves would have you commit diablerie in order to join that clan you chose. It was pants on head tier retarded.

Is a thin-blood even capable of commiting diablerie? They aren't capable of embracing or blood bonding, and by extension ghouling. Are we expected to believe that somehow the only blood ritual they're capable of is the most powerful one?

Tremere mongrel, you comprehend nothing of our Cainite condition. These are not "blood rituals", but regular properties of the blood. Observe: diablerie depends on the properties of the blood of the donor, not the consumer of the blood. Embraces and blood bonds also depend on the properties of the blood of the donor. But in the case of diablerie performed by a thinblood, the thinblood is not the donor.

 

[Delterius]

I might be the only guy on this site that likes Thin-blood Alchemy and thin-bloods in general. I like the idea of a weak Kindred trying to even the odds with careful planning and premade blood elixirs, kind of like a Witcher.

Also from what I understand tabletop moved the setting forward a bit. We are now *in* Gehenna, which entails a war between camarilla and the thin-bloods. Camarilla lost their most powerful Elders to the blood curse and the thin bloods reached a critical mass, plus discovered how to use their blood to achieve certain new powers.

Why would they make this design choice when Clans are the meat of the lore is beyond my understanding. But it merely carried over to Bloodlines 2.

And Camarilla themselves would have you commit diablerie in order to join that clan you chose. It was pants on head tier retarded.

Is a thin-blood even capable of commiting diablerie? They aren't capable of embracing or blood bonding, and by extension ghouling. Are we expected to believe that somehow the only blood ritual they're capable of is the most powerful one?

Makes sense to me. They can't do much with their blood until they steal the power from someone above them.

 

[Vincente]

Observe: diablerie depends on the properties of the blood of the donor, not the consumer of the blood. Embraces and blood bonds also depend on the properties of the blood of the donor. But in the case of diablerie performed by a thinblood, the thinblood is not the donor.

What are the chances of thin-bloods botching the diablerie and getting soul stolen? Should be way higher compared to regular Kindred, no?

 

[gerey]

This is just so insulting. Between this and System Shock 3, that's two times that original developers revived classic IPs only for them to be handed over to randos. How did this happen twice?

It's pretty simple really. The devs who made the original games had a lot of passion and drive, whereas nowadays franchises have been reduced to the projected monetary value of their IPs.

I don't really expect anything good from a sequel made almost 20 years after the last installment (that's like a generation ship of theseus), but I would like to be surprised.

All they had to do was avoid NuWoD like the plague, copypaste Human Revolutions/Mankind Divided (because they sure as fuck lacked the intelligence to copy the original Deus Ex, but with goths and not make the whole thing too fucking gay.

But I guess even that is asking too much from retarded modern developers. The cretins couldn't even figure out how to do first-person melee properly, despite the fact there's a shitload of games out there (Chronicles of Riddick, Shadow Warrior, Dark Messiah, Condemned to name a few) that get it right.

I genuinely have no clue where these retards even got the idea of guns being one-off powerups - Mirror's Edge had a similar mechanic, sure, but that game was built around running, not fighting enemies, and Condemned did as well, but the focus of that game was killing hobos with lead pipes.

If you wanted to encourage players to use their powers more just make it obvious that using guns on a vampire isn't really going to do much.

It's not even a question of passion, modern developers can churn out functional, playable games on a regular basis and on schedule - this was just complete and utter incompetence, likely fueled by narcissism and woke orgasms. I bet the clowns spend more time jerking each other off on the best way to shove Rudi into the game than they did actually doing what they were paid for.

 

[EvilWolf]

Why would they make this design choice when Clans are the meat of the lore is beyond my understanding. But it merely carried over to Bloodlines 2.

And Camarilla themselves would have you commit diablerie in order to join that clan you chose. It was pants on head tier retarded.

Is a thin-blood even capable of commiting diablerie? They aren't capable of embracing or blood bonding, and by extension ghouling. Are we expected to believe that somehow the only blood ritual they're capable of is the most powerful one?

Tremere mongrel, you comprehend nothing of our Cainite condition. These are not "blood rituals", but regular properties of the blood. Observe: diablerie depends on the properties of the blood of the donor, not the consumer of the blood. Embraces and blood bonds also depend on the properties of the blood of the donor. But in the case of diablerie performed by a thinblood, the thinblood is not the donor.

Sorry, but that's semantics. Embracing, the blood bond, diablerie, etc. are all "rituals" of "blood".

 

[ColaWerewolf]

A thin blood is not much different from the low level vampire we played in Bloodlines.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but IRC the PC in Bloodlines was a middle-generation vampire, either 7th or 8th, basically a "peer" of the likes of Janette and LaCroix, and by no means weak.

Can we just agree that despite VtMB having great atmosphere and being fun to play, the main story and the player character weren't good? The main character was a Mary Sue, simple as. The main story revolved around the player character going from 0 to 100 in the span of seconds, trashing everything and everyone that stood between them and their quest objective. That thing with the sarcophagus and the surprise-kablooey? Totally useless. I mean sure it was flashy and got the style points, but the PC could've finished off LaCroix without needing any of it. Just like how they mopped the floor with an entire mini-army of hunters, spec ops, vampires, Sheriff, Sabbat, etc.

VtMB PC is the Doomguy of vampires.

But it was fun, so it didn't matter. VtMB2 should not copy that same formula. VtMB was good in spite of having a Mary Sue PC, not because of it. Just because it worked for VtMB doesn't mean that all VtM games should have rags-to-godhood PCs.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

wot
the main character is a pawn, not a mary sue.

 

[EvilWolf]

A thin blood is not much different from the low level vampire we played in Bloodlines.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but IRC the PC in Bloodlines was a middle-generation vampire, either 7th or 8th, basically a "peer" of the likes of Janette and LaCroix, and by no means weak.

Can we just agree that despite VtMB having great atmosphere and being fun to play, the main story and the player character weren't good? The main character was a Mary Sue, simple as. The main story revolved around the player character going from 0 to 100 in the span of seconds, trashing everything and everyone that stood between them and their quest objective. That thing with the sarcophagus and the surprise-kablooey? Totally useless. I mean sure it was flashy and got the style points, but the PC could've finished off LaCroix without needing any of it. Just like how they mopped the floor with an entire mini-army of hunters, spec ops, vampires, Sheriff, Sabbat, etc.

VtMB PC is the Doomguy of vampires.

But it was fun, so it didn't matter. VtMB2 should not copy that same formula. VtMB was good in spite of having a Mary Sue PC, not because of it. Just because it worked for VtMB doesn't mean that all VtM games should have rags-to-godhood PCs.

Every low generation vampire is inherently a Mary Sue. I believe the vtmb protag was 9th generation which was actually Christof's generation in the Dark Ages when he was embraced by Ecaterina. The dumbest part of the Bloodlines story is that the player's sire was staked and executed so easily.

 

[Cael]

9th gen is not even the lowest gen a starting character can be in a typical VtmB game back in the day.

 

[deuxhero]

A thin blood is not much different from the low level vampire we played in Bloodlines.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but IRC the PC in Bloodlines was a middle-generation vampire, either 7th or 8th, basically a "peer" of the likes of Janette and LaCroix, and by no means weak.

Can we just agree that despite VtMB having great atmosphere and being fun to play, the main story and the player character weren't good? The main character was a Mary Sue, simple as. The main story revolved around the player character going from 0 to 100 in the span of seconds, trashing everything and everyone that stood between them and their quest objective. That thing with the sarcophagus and the surprise-kablooey? Totally useless. I mean sure it was flashy and got the style points, but the PC could've finished off LaCroix without needing any of it. Just like how they mopped the floor with an entire mini-army of hunters, spec ops, vampires, Sheriff, Sabbat, etc.

VtMB PC is the Doomguy of vampires.

But it was fun, so it didn't matter. VtMB2 should not copy that same formula. VtMB was good in spite of having a Mary Sue PC, not because of it. Just because it worked for VtMB doesn't mean that all VtM games should have rags-to-godhood PCs.

Every low generation vampire is inherently a Mary Sue. I believe the vtmb protag was 9th generation which was actually Christof's generation in the Dark Ages when he was embraced by Ecaterina. The dumbest part of the Bloodlines story is that the player's sire was staked and executed so easily.

Clearly VtMB's protag sired by their apparent sire, but Cain (or, at least, the really old Malk who seems to be Cain) used one of his high level "plot device" powers to improved the PC's generation and give them unnaturally high rate of growth, because watching the children tear everyone apart is way more hilarious than just eating everyone.

 

[Cael]

A thin blood is not much different from the low level vampire we played in Bloodlines.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but IRC the PC in Bloodlines was a middle-generation vampire, either 7th or 8th, basically a "peer" of the likes of Janette and LaCroix, and by no means weak.

Can we just agree that despite VtMB having great atmosphere and being fun to play, the main story and the player character weren't good? The main character was a Mary Sue, simple as. The main story revolved around the player character going from 0 to 100 in the span of seconds, trashing everything and everyone that stood between them and their quest objective. That thing with the sarcophagus and the surprise-kablooey? Totally useless. I mean sure it was flashy and got the style points, but the PC could've finished off LaCroix without needing any of it. Just like how they mopped the floor with an entire mini-army of hunters, spec ops, vampires, Sheriff, Sabbat, etc.

VtMB PC is the Doomguy of vampires.

But it was fun, so it didn't matter. VtMB2 should not copy that same formula. VtMB was good in spite of having a Mary Sue PC, not because of it. Just because it worked for VtMB doesn't mean that all VtM games should have rags-to-godhood PCs.

Every low generation vampire is inherently a Mary Sue. I believe the vtmb protag was 9th generation which was actually Christof's generation in the Dark Ages when he was embraced by Ecaterina. The dumbest part of the Bloodlines story is that the player's sire was staked and executed so easily.

Clearly VtMB's protag sired by their apparent sire, but Cain (or, at least, the really old Malk who seems to be Cain) used one of his high level "plot device" powers to improved the PC's generation and give them unnaturally high rate of growth, because watching the children tear everyone apart is way more hilarious than just eating everyone.

Technically, if Cain sired the protag's sire and forced him to sire the protag before conveniently getting him killed off, the protag is gen 3... Which would explain why Lacroix's Dominate didn't work.

 

[ColaWerewolf]

wot
the main character is a pawn, not a mary sue.

That's exactly what makes them a Mary Sue. They're not some monstrous elder, they're just a fresh corpse. And yet this fresh corpse single-handedly dismantled both the Sabbat (by single-handedly taking on the arch-bishop and an army of vampires) and the Camarilla (by single-handedly taking on the Sheriff and an army of vampires).

Technically, if Cain sired the protag's sire and forced him to sire the protag before conveniently getting him killed off, the protag is gen 3... Which would explain why Lacroix's Dominate didn't work.

Lacroix's Dominate works on the PC several times (because it has to for plot purposes) up until the end of the game where it suddenly stops working. You can choose to say "no" to his missions, but it is a fake choice since you get Dominated into it anyway.

 

[Cael]

Technically, if Cain sired the protag's sire and forced him to sire the protag before conveniently getting him killed off, the protag is gen 3... Which would explain why Lacroix's Dominate didn't work.

Lacroix's Dominate works on the PC several times (because it has to for plot purposes) up until the end of the game where it suddenly stops working. You can choose to say "no" to his missions, but it is a fake choice since you get Dominated into it anyway.

You have to learn how to use your abilities properly. Once that happens, its curtains for Mr Idiotball.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

And yet this fresh corpse single-handedly dismantled both the Sabbat (by single-handedly taking on the arch-bishop and an army of vampires) and the Camarilla (by single-handedly taking on the Sheriff and an army of vampires)

Samuel Colt. Making monsters and other monsters equal since 1836.

 

[EvilWolf]

wot
the main character is a pawn, not a mary sue.

That's exactly what makes them a Mary Sue. They're not some monstrous elder, they're just a fresh corpse. And yet this fresh corpse single-handedly dismantled both the Sabbat (by single-handedly taking on the arch-bishop and an army of vampires) and the Camarilla (by single-handedly taking on the Sheriff and an army of vampires).

Technically, if Cain sired the protag's sire and forced him to sire the protag before conveniently getting him killed off, the protag is gen 3... Which would explain why Lacroix's Dominate didn't work.

Lacroix's Dominate works on the PC several times (because it has to for plot purposes) up until the end of the game where it suddenly stops working. You can choose to say "no" to his missions, but it is a fake choice since you get Dominated into it anyway.

Point 1: As Cael stated, it takes time for a new fledgling to adapt to the blood coursing through their veins. The gradual power scale in VtMB make sense, for most of the game you're fighting humans except for a vampire or other being peppered here or there. Even the infamous sewer level isn't really that big of a challenge if you get past the shock factor. It's basically just Christof's first challenge before he's even embraced in Redemption. By the end of the game he can no longer be called a Mary Sue because most of his skill has been earned through experience, literally.

Point 2: If you understand the rules for domination it makes sense, most people hypothesize that since LaCroix was embraced during the Napoleonic Wars he's likely 8th generation at most. If the protag is 9th it makes domination a gamble, yes a gamble you'll most likely win, but it's not unheard of for it to fail at a single generation difference.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Even if the game came out there's little chance that it'd be worth anyone's time let alone money. Just let it go.

 

[Cael]

wot
the main character is a pawn, not a mary sue.

That's exactly what makes them a Mary Sue. They're not some monstrous elder, they're just a fresh corpse. And yet this fresh corpse single-handedly dismantled both the Sabbat (by single-handedly taking on the arch-bishop and an army of vampires) and the Camarilla (by single-handedly taking on the Sheriff and an army of vampires).

Technically, if Cain sired the protag's sire and forced him to sire the protag before conveniently getting him killed off, the protag is gen 3... Which would explain why Lacroix's Dominate didn't work.

Lacroix's Dominate works on the PC several times (because it has to for plot purposes) up until the end of the game where it suddenly stops working. You can choose to say "no" to his missions, but it is a fake choice since you get Dominated into it anyway.

Point 1: As Cael stated, it takes time for a new fledgling to adapt to the blood coursing through their veins. The gradual power scale in VtMB make sense, for most of the game you're fighting humans except for a vampire or other being peppered here or there. Even the infamous sewer level isn't really that big of a challenge if you get past the shock factor. It's basically just Christof's first challenge before he's even embraced in Redemption. By the end of the game he can no longer be called a Mary Sue because most of his skill has been earned through experience, literally.

Point 2: If you understand the rules for domination it makes sense, most people hypothesize that since LaCroix was embraced during the Napoleonic Wars he's likely 8th generation at most. If the protag is 9th it makes domination a gamble, yes a gamble you'll most likely win, but it's not unheard of for it to fail at a single generation difference.

I thought I saw it mentioned somewhere that Lacroix was 9th and Nines was 7th, which is why he is so afraid of Nines?

 

[EvilWolf]

wot
the main character is a pawn, not a mary sue.

That's exactly what makes them a Mary Sue. They're not some monstrous elder, they're just a fresh corpse. And yet this fresh corpse single-handedly dismantled both the Sabbat (by single-handedly taking on the arch-bishop and an army of vampires) and the Camarilla (by single-handedly taking on the Sheriff and an army of vampires).

Technically, if Cain sired the protag's sire and forced him to sire the protag before conveniently getting him killed off, the protag is gen 3... Which would explain why Lacroix's Dominate didn't work.

Lacroix's Dominate works on the PC several times (because it has to for plot purposes) up until the end of the game where it suddenly stops working. You can choose to say "no" to his missions, but it is a fake choice since you get Dominated into it anyway.

Point 1: As Cael stated, it takes time for a new fledgling to adapt to the blood coursing through their veins. The gradual power scale in VtMB make sense, for most of the game you're fighting humans except for a vampire or other being peppered here or there. Even the infamous sewer level isn't really that big of a challenge if you get past the shock factor. It's basically just Christof's first challenge before he's even embraced in Redemption. By the end of the game he can no longer be called a Mary Sue because most of his skill has been earned through experience, literally.

Point 2: If you understand the rules for domination it makes sense, most people hypothesize that since LaCroix was embraced during the Napoleonic Wars he's likely 8th generation at most. If the protag is 9th it makes domination a gamble, yes a gamble you'll most likely win, but it's not unheard of for it to fail at a single generation difference.

I thought I saw it mentioned somewhere that Lacroix was 9th and Nines was 7th, which is why he is so afraid of Nines?

Nines is ... 9th generation. LaCroix is scared of Nines because he has Jack in his corner. Otherwise the Ivory Tower would have chased the Anarchs present at The Last Round out of town a while ago since they're all less than 100 years old. Mercurio is actually older than all of them, except Jack and maybe Nines.

 

[Trithne]

wot
the main character is a pawn, not a mary sue.

That's exactly what makes them a Mary Sue. They're not some monstrous elder, they're just a fresh corpse. And yet this fresh corpse single-handedly dismantled both the Sabbat (by single-handedly taking on the arch-bishop and an army of vampires) and the Camarilla (by single-handedly taking on the Sheriff and an army of vampires).

Technically, if Cain sired the protag's sire and forced him to sire the protag before conveniently getting him killed off, the protag is gen 3... Which would explain why Lacroix's Dominate didn't work.

Lacroix's Dominate works on the PC several times (because it has to for plot purposes) up until the end of the game where it suddenly stops working. You can choose to say "no" to his missions, but it is a fake choice since you get Dominated into it anyway.

Point 1: As Cael stated, it takes time for a new fledgling to adapt to the blood coursing through their veins. The gradual power scale in VtMB make sense, for most of the game you're fighting humans except for a vampire or other being peppered here or there. Even the infamous sewer level isn't really that big of a challenge if you get past the shock factor. It's basically just Christof's first challenge before he's even embraced in Redemption. By the end of the game he can no longer be called a Mary Sue because most of his skill has been earned through experience, literally.

Point 2: If you understand the rules for domination it makes sense, most people hypothesize that since LaCroix was embraced during the Napoleonic Wars he's likely 8th generation at most. If the protag is 9th it makes domination a gamble, yes a gamble you'll most likely win, but it's not unheard of for it to fail at a single generation difference.

I thought I saw it mentioned somewhere that Lacroix was 9th and Nines was 7th, which is why he is so afraid of Nines?

Nines is ... 9th generation. LaCroix is scared of Nines because he has Jack in his corner. Otherwise the Ivory Tower would have chased the Anarchs present at The Last Round out of town a while ago since they're all less than 100 years old. Mercurio is actually older than all of them, except Jack and maybe Nines.

Mercurio's something around sixty in 2004, Nines was embraced in the Depression, so he'd be around ninety or so.

And then Jack was a pirate, likely somewhere around 4-500 by that point.

 

[Wesp5]

And yet this fresh corpse single-handedly dismantled both the Sabbat (by single-handedly taking on the arch-bishop and an army of vampires) and the Camarilla (by single-handedly taking on the Sheriff and an army of vampires).

Besides that this is common for basically every computer game in which the player rises from newbie to master in a short time, Troika actually thought about an explanation for Bloodlines by including Cain. The Sabbat Elder even comments upon the fact that your blood got stronger in a short time while Cain is basically driving you around the city. And the final lines of Jack reveal that the whole setup was Cain's idea in the first place! Personally I loved the story and especially the ending because there was not another super vampire to fight. It makes sense from start to finish and in my own lore Caine uses the plot as a test to see how his children behave under stress...

 

[Tacgnol]

As Wesp suggests, I always assumed that Cain was using his deus ex machina powers to make the PC stronger, as was implied off hand by a few NPCs.

The PC shouldn't be able to get that much stronger that fast in normal circumstances.