World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 - VTMB sequel from The Chinese Room - coming early 2025

[Conan]

Get things done.

Well yeah. Obsidian is a disaster. NwN2 only got out of the door because of Sawyer. And for all the faults of PoE1/2 the games were not unfinished at release, far from it.

Sawyer is the team autist, he needed a powerful counterpart in the creative department to keep things fresh. Just as they needed Sawyer to actually get things done. But everyone in Obsidian was too fat and scared to oppose the bloodthirst of He-Who-De-Owners.

Not the truth the Codex wants, but the one it needs. In the video game developer of the blind, the one-eyed Sawyer is king

Sycophants and idiots like this is why we are where we are.

 

[Roguey]

Sawyer is the team autist, he needed a powerful counterpart in the creative department to keep things fresh. Just as they needed Sawyer to actually get things done. But everyone in Obsidian was too fat and scared to oppose the bloodthirst of He-Who-De-Owners.

Obsidian is certainly worse off now that they no longer have a bored and belligerent Avellone in the corner yelling "Why should I give a fuck?" regarding every narrative decision.

Onyx was a powerful engine which was never heard of again after dungeon siege 3.

They made South Park with it. And Feargus eventually revealed that they just couldn't keep up with the cost of maintaining it.

 

[Harthwain]

One complaint that took me by surprise is the idea that the four available clans are all samey. [...]

Arguably the three former clans were not radically different in Bloodlines. The C&C between having an early Ventrue apartment or a late Tremere apartment is nice but not such a big deal. However, like I said before, it's easy to take ownership of a silent protagonist even if you can't customize their appearance. That's the subconscious effect: the player might feel as though they are picking between flavors of Phyre, rather than what type of vampire they are in the night.

In Bloodlines the clans had no real influence on the story, no argument here. However, they had a unique clan-specific mechanical advantage/disadvantage and I guess that (plus a unique line of dialogue or two) was enough to convince many people that there was enough of a difference for your clan of choice to matter more than it really did (when in reality the difference was relatively minor).

Then there's the practical effect. There could be more radical changes between being an Haqim Elder or a Ventrue Elder from the middle east. But with a fully voiced protagonist using a FO4/Mass Effect esque dialogue, the odds are there won't be. You'll have a choice of 'reminding them who you are', and they'll say that 'you were called the slayer'. The limitations imposed on the writing team by a fully voiced protagonist and their headmate are likely to bolster the feeling of which flavor of Commander Shepard you're picking. This devalues all cosmetic and actual C&C they can afford to create.

That's true. I guess they thought they can get away with making the same character once with four different outfits doing the same thing and it will be cheaper/easier than creating a bunch of different faces/outfits for a free-style character creation and implementing some changes to make each one of them feel more "distinct" (Bloodlines 1-style). It is kind of sad that even Bloodlines 1 proved to be too high of a bar for them to pass.

 

[Wesp5]

I think that a decent vampire game would have wide market appeal even without having a brand behind it.

Do we know how Swansong and Vampyr fared regarded the money? I know Bloodlust will not be continued.

 

[Wesp5]

I guess they thought they can get away with making the same character once with four different outfits doing the same thing and it will be cheaper/easier than creating a bunch of different faces/outfits for a free-style character creation and implementing some changes to make each one of them feel more "distinct" (Bloodlines 1-style).

What surprised me about the video they showed is that they played as a female Brujah wearing the female Tremere outfit. So they didn't even acknowledge their own differences there and the outfits won't matter at all!

 

[Tyranicon]

What surprised me about the video they showed is that they played as a female Brujah wearing the female Tremere outfit. So they didn't even acknowledge their own differences there and the outfits won't matter at all!

They probably don't have a showable version of the brujah outfit.

We haven't even seen a male render yet, just concept art. A male protag named Phyre. A real "hello fellow zoomers" moment.

These people have no idea who their audience is.

 

[Harthwain]

Do we know how Swansong and Vampyr fared regarded the money? I know Bloodlust will not be continued.

Vampyr was pretty successful from what I found:

[...] Vampyr has sold over two million worldwide since it launched in June 2018.

Vampyr [...] is DONTNOD's biggest financial success to date, alongside the first Life is Strange.

Source: https://www.vgchartz.com/article/452695/vampyr-sales-top-2-million-units/

No idea how Swansong did.

 

[Delterius]

Get things done.

Well yeah. Obsidian is a disaster. NwN2 only got out of the door because of Sawyer. And for all the faults of PoE1/2 the games were not unfinished at release, far from it.

Sawyer is the team autist, he needed a powerful counterpart in the creative department to keep things fresh. Just as they needed Sawyer to actually get things done. But everyone in Obsidian was too fat and scared to oppose the bloodthirst of He-Who-De-Owners.

Not the truth the Codex wants, but the one it needs. In the video game developer of the blind, the one-eyed Sawyer is king

Sycophants and idiots like this is why we are where we are.

sir this is an internet forum

 

[The President]

I am genuinely asking here is the dislike of a protagonist being voiced solely a personal preference or is it because they feel it limits the number of dialogue choices they are going to receive? We do have tons of games with a very large amount of dialogue these days, they aren’t really mutually exclusive anymore. Can I ask some of your opinions then on the Dark Urge origin from BG3 then? You could customize and play this character how you wanted but they did have a very important backstory and history to what’s going on in the game.

 

[Delterius]

We do have tons of games with a very large amount of dialogue these days, they aren’t really mutually exclusive anymore.

Do you see this game getting 1/10th of the investment and reiteration that Baldur's Gate 3 did?

The Dark Urge is a silent protagonist and an optional backstory added to the game 10 years into its development. Phyre is the default and likely the ceiling to TCR's Bloodlines 2. The Dark Urge is arguably more akin to the Malkavian PC in Bloodlines 1 than Phyre. Because Phyre is not just voiced or has a backstory, they are the full (and only) package.

If what we've seen so far of Bloodlines 2 is representative of the game, then there won't be many dialogue choices or ways to interprete the protagonist. It will be closer to Fallout 4 or the Witcher than Baldur's Gate 3.

 

[Harthwain]

I am genuinely asking here is the dislike of a protagonist being voiced solely a personal preference or is it because they feel it limits the number of dialogue choices they are going to receive?

One thing is that bad voice acting is going to be a waste of money spent of voice acting. Another is that, indeed, voiced dialogues limit the number of dialogue options, if all have to be voiced.

 

[Wesp5]

Vampyr was pretty successful from what I found:

[...] Vampyr has sold over two million worldwide since it launched in June 2018.

Vampyr [...] is DONTNOD's biggest financial success to date, alongside the first Life is Strange.

Source: https://www.vgchartz.com/article/452695/vampyr-sales-top-2-million-units/

So Vampyr sold 2 million copies, but was downloaded 8 million times when it was free on the Epic Store. Now Cyberpunk for example sold over 25 million copies until last year, so whether 2 million copies is successful would probably depend on the cost of making the game.

 

[Alienman]

These are what we would be expecting from a modern game though.

Why would you?

Game dev, spec. AAA game dev, is much harder / more complicated now than it was ~20 years ago.

I’m making a small game now but I work w/ and talk to people making AA and AAA. It’s changed enormously.

Can people stop talking out of their asses for a second on this dumb site

Making a AA game now is comparable to making a AAA game 10 years ago - and it’s *still* harder and more complicated.

If your contribution to the discussion is to disagree without recalling your own dev experience or the testimonials of other devs contradicting what I’m saying, contemplate if this is a) smart b) incredibly dumb.

It's a self-inflicted problem, but a problem nonetheless. And even without it, I wouldn't expect much from a group of people who have never worked together before making a game from scratch in a genre most of them have never worked in before with a strict schedule.

That's because they are not making AAA games, they are making AAAA games (budget wise at least).

 

[Cryomancer]

I bashed a lot JRPG's by androgynous protagonists and them saw "phyre" in this game... And seriously, dialog wheels and this MC are what kill the game imo.

In which aspect is more complicated? Game engines, software to make 3D models and textures, everything is much better.

The unique thing that makes harder to make games is the diversity hires and cultural baizuo sensibilities.

For eg, RollerCoaster Tycoon was made by a single dude in Assembly in two years. A modern AAA developer would need 5 years with 50 chief diversity officers, 5000 workers in the safety team, have 2 good developers and 500 incompetent diversity hires and after the 5 years, the game will come demanding 666 GB to be installed.

 

[Ryzer]

That's because they are not making AAA games, they are making AAAA games (budget wise at least).

AAAA is the scream I make when I play those games.

 

[Zariusz]

I watched gameplay and thought that it was not that bad, there was some atmosphere and decent amount of actual game... then i realised it was the HDL version and when i opened current version gameplay i quit after 5 minutes.

KURWA MAĆ, JUST SHUT THE FUCK UP. Constant whortless babbling, no moment for silence, atmosphere or anything, terrible dialogue, maximum 3-4 dialogue choices and most of the time it wont be even used...

Ehh...
Hey Wesp5 how is Prelude going, can we expect part 2 coming out soon? Maybe even in this half of the year?

 

[Semiurge]

I would be fine if at least the fixed prot would've been your know, somewhat relatable. This tranny isn't relatable at all to me. And something tells me that the "male" option will be even worse.

This project is so low effort that I'd be surprised if the male face option isn't just the face we've seen but with facial hair. It could be dlc too, if decent.

They probably don't have a showable version of the brujah outfit.

More likely they dare not show it again after the ridicule.

 

[Conan]

I bashed a lot JRPG's by androgynous protagonists and them saw "phyre" in this game... And seriously, dialog wheels and this MC are what kill the game imo.

In which aspect is more complicated? Game engines, software to make 3D models and textures, everything is much better.

The unique thing that makes harder to make games is the diversity hires and cultural baizuo sensibilities.

For eg, RollerCoaster Tycoon was made by a single dude in Assembly in two years. A modern AAA developer would need 5 years with 50 chief diversity officers, 5000 workers in the safety team, have 2 good developers and 500 incompetent diversity hires and after the 5 years, the game will come demanding 666 GB to be installed.

That's pretty much it.

The fact of the matter is that older games were simply made by competent people. These (Obsidian) idiots cant code to save their life. I mean this is 2024 ffs, if you really wish to do anything and yes even *professionally* do it well there are more resources out there than any other time. FFS, there is an explosion in the number of graphics artists so even that part, creating high quality assets is simpler. What Soyyer either is willfully obfuscating or is genuinely unaware (more likely) that everyone around him is as capable as he is.

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

From what I heard listening to people in this business, developers who "can code" are increasingly becoming a rarity across the entire industry.

More and more roles these days are filled with people who have training with some specific tools. Sometimes to such a degree of specialization that they can feel completely lost just moving few steps out of their comfort zone.

Jonathan Blow talked about the phenomenon in the past, too.

 

[Tyranicon]

Brain drain is a serious problem for the vidya industry. Good programmers are in hot demand basically anywhere and game studios just can't provide the proper compensation to hire the best, who are either earning a shit ton of $$$ somewhere else or making their own games as an indie.

Imagine working for the types of people who run these studios and still getting paid well below market average. Yeah, nobody talented is going to do that.

Now apply that to artists, writers, etc and you'll get a clear idea of what the games industry is.

One steaming pile of mediocrity. Just like tv and movies.

I'm honestly somewhat proud of the fact that I never stepped one foot in the actual industry proper. It's a machine that grinds the human spirit down and gives you nothing in return, like most corpo work.

They can keep it. I'd rather not have that stench on me.

 

[Child of Malkav]

I don't think making games is easy. Sure it became easier since its inception but it still takes time and effort to do right. Plus the knowledge of engine/programming language/tool. Look at RatTower at how long it's taking him to make Monomyth, and the guy knows his stuff.

 

[processdaemon]

The worst part of the gameplay trailer for me was when the Nosferatu goes 'no no no no no no no, all I had to do was keep my head down for a few nights' and your backseat driver handily pipes up with 'he's hiding something'. It feels like Fabian is in it because the devs can't bear the thought of not handholding the player for even a fraction of a second lest they miss something the devs have decided is important, which shows a lack of faith in either the intelligence of the player or how well the game communicates its plot points and themes.

 

[Wesp5]

Hey Wesp5 how is Prelude going, can we expect part 2 coming out soon? Maybe even in this half of the year?

Yes, EntenSchreck plans to release it soon. At first without Malkavians and Nosferatus because these need extra work but that is similar to Bloodlines 2 !

 

[Roguey]

The worst part of the gameplay trailer for me was when the Nosferatu goes 'no no no no no no no, all I had to do was keep my head down for a few nights' and your backseat driver handily pipes up with 'he's hiding something'. It feels like Fabian is in it because the devs can't bear the thought of not handholding the player for even a fraction of a second lest they miss something the devs have decided is important, which shows a lack of faith in either the intelligence of the player or how well the game communicates its plot points and themes.

An explanation that makes sense to me is that Paradox demanded a Johnny Silverhand so Pinchbeck decided to make him as obnoxious as possible in the hopes that they would change their minds (they didn't).

Alternately it's Le Bray's idea. I believe it's within the realm of possibility that a Bioware QA tester who wasn't actually good enough to get promoted to a writer within the studio would think he's a fantastic character.

The intent as described by Longthorne

On Fabien, one of the dilemmas we encountered was how to make someone like Phyre relatable as a vehicle for the player, given how cold and detached most elders are (okay, except maybe Jack). Fabien basically acts as a counterweight because he is more connected to his humanity.

That seems sensible, but he doesn't have to be a total idiot who talks all the time.

I guess that concept can actually work (Ninja Ninja in Afro Samurai), but the execution here is just awful.

... you know what if they had guts they'd replace Fabien with a black guy. "He's hiding something"? Lame. "Hellllll nahhh, that nigga's HIDIN somethin'!" Hilarious.

 

[Tyranicon]

one of the dilemmas we encountered was how to make someone like Phyre relatable

Step 1: Don't give a X hundred year old vampire a name that even some zoomer mumble rapper would cringe at.

The more I think about it, the more I imagine voice actors trying their hardest to constantly say "Phyre" in a serious way that befits some one who demands respect and fear, and it just doesn't work.