World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 - VTMB sequel from The Chinese Room - coming early 2025

[Delterius]

Wasn't the thin blood protagonist meant to promote their new ruleset? It could have been an interesting choice to have a weak player character with the need to actively use the blood alchemy system (harvesting resonance from humans to get limited use disciplines).

It was more along the lines of White Wolf and the HS/Mitsoda people working together to create mechanics and game concepts, both for Bloodlines 2 and Vampire. From what I understand the idea of Resonance - that the blood of people carrying certain emotions go on to affect the Vampire, includig mechanically - was developed for BL2 and V5.

The way I see it, the problem with the thinblood concept is two fold. First, one of marketing, ie the idea that playing a thinblood is merely playing a vampire except shittier. That's not really true. But wax about lore all you want - it won't matter. It's in the name, you're a creature whose blood is thin.

Then you might ask, what if we lean on it? What if we promise the strange and unearthed powers of thinblood arcana, as well as the experience of being caitiff in ruthless camarilla society? That brings us to the second problem: the devs didn't really want to lean on it. One of the first things we learned about the game is that you're a thinblood, result of an illegal mass embrace, and that you're somehow trusted (BL1 style) to investigate what happened (Edit: Wesp corrected me in a following post). The nail on that thinblood coffin is that we were gonna somehow attain full clan status. Which is not unheard of in the setting, but it's even more indicative of how the devs wanted to have their cake and eat it too.

I have no reason to believe the same dynamics isn't happening with TCR. The screenrant interview (bear with me, I'm reading tea leaves here) is interesting, in that Alex Skidmore (TCR) takes the lead with almost every question, except the one which talks about the new game's premise, where Sean Greaney (WoD-PDX) starts answering:

I'm not sure how much you can reveal right now in general, but I would love to hear some about the different powers that players will be able to have in this game. I know you start as a Thin Blood, so you're not quite as powerful, but I assume that doesn't last forever.

Sean Greaney: We can talk a little bit about this. So first of all, we've actually taken the other approach in this project - you don't start as a Thin Blood, you start as an elder vampire, and this is the first time that we're doing this in a World of Darkness product. I'll leave that for Alex to talk about. On the powers front, we won't speak specifically because that's the next thing we're going to go into; we're going to start talking about the playable clans, and then eventually the player experience of those and revealing those sorts of things.
But a lot of this is about claiming the vampire fantasy that Alex can also speak to that is a bit undefined in video games, I would say, very well defined, obviously, in film and television. But there's an open fantasy that I think the team is doing a really, really good job approaching and defining. And I've never felt quite as much like a vampire as I do in this game.
Alex Skidmore: Yeah, thank you, Sean. For clarity, when The Chinese Room started on the project in 2021, we're building our own vision; it's our own narrative, our own sort of world and gameplay and everything. So things you would have heard before, now it's a new thing. As I said, instead of starting as Thin Blood, it's a game about being an elder and exploring that side of VTM. Because elders are quite rare, so that for us in a really, really cool thing to do, and also a nice contrast to the first Bloodlines game as well, where literally the start of the game was the scream as you became a vampire. And we went, "Okay, that's kind of done. What if we did an elder vampire?" So very much our own vision, if that makes sense.

Odds are that there's a mutual collaboration in place, and it's hard to say which side had the most pull. It does seem like both the TCR and the WoD people are taking ownership of the premise behind BL2. To what extent it's a matter of professionalism - we've been hired to do this job, let's do it - we might never know. One thing might be certain though. Without a Mitsoda, TCR isn't married to any sort of vision. Which can be both a good and a bad thing. It's down to wether the developers can grow to become interested in the project. RPG developers have done merc jobs before that turned out well.

 

[Harthwain]

The way I see it, the problem with the thinblood concept is two fold. First, one of marketing, ie the idea that playing a thinblood is merely playing a vampire except shittier.

Actually, you could argue that playing as a thinblood had potential. First of all - you can show the player that playing as a vampire isn't as fantastic as some people might think when they think or talk about becoming a vampire. Being a pariah of the vampire society would also be a good excuse to make the player take part in lower aspects of it, while still keeping them superior to human. It seemed to go that way in the beginning, considering the early reveal material for Bloodlines 2. Throw in a resource-limited system and it could've been an interesting game (at least on paper).

 

[Herumor]

I believe you chose your clan through Diablerie.

That sounds especially retarded. Yeah, Camarilla allowed for blood hunts and what not, but outright Diablerie? That's more Sabbat's MO.

 

[Delterius]

The way I see it, the problem with the thinblood concept is two fold. First, one of marketing, ie the idea that playing a thinblood is merely playing a vampire except shittier.

Actually, you could argue that playing as a thinblood had potential. First of all - you can show the player that playing as a vampire isn't as fantastic as some people might think when they think or talk about becoming a vampire. Being a pariah of the vampire society would also be a good excuse to make the player take part in lower aspects of it, while still keeping them superior to human. It seemed to go that way in the beginning, considering the early reveal material for Bloodlines 2. Throw in a resource-limited system and it could've been an interesting game (at least on paper).

Sure! You can argue a great many things. I'm one of those people who prefers the concept of a Hunter game where you're a normal bucko trying to kill the neighborhood Nosferatu, rather than a holy vatican law soldier. But I'm talking about marketing there. And even this thread probably retains some post or another of people bitching that they are playing a shittier vampire.

 

[Delterius]

I believe you chose your clan through Diablerie.

That sounds especially retarded. Yeah, Camarilla allowed for blood hunts and what not, but outright Diablerie? That's more Sabbat's MO.

Diablerie is the ultimate crime in Camarilla society. However the Cam is often on the backfoot and a Blood Hunt or a wider war with the Sabbat are some of the few mitigating circumstances where they won't ask too many questions if you come back with a fucked up aura. You'll still be shunned by polite vampire society, and odds are you'll be more or less confined to the city you're in, since they know you by name rather than reputation.

You have to remember that the Traditions exist to benefit the Camarilla hierarchy. In a pinch both the Prince and their Sheriff have the authority to disregard the Traditions themselves. The point of forbidding diablerie is because Camarilla vampires don't want to live in a society where people are eating each other all the time, but the reason it's forbidden in the first place is because the big honchos don't want kids eating their Elders. It's like tax evasion in a way. All the cool kids are doing it and the system works as long as enough people can't even consider it.

So let's say you're Prince of Milwaukee and the vampire Jay comes before you, having diablerized Mike. Maybe Jay did what you wanted as Mike was Sabbat, there was a fight, and then Jay ended up diablerizing Mike. Maybe it was a big war with the Sabbat, and Jay isn't even the only one who ended up diablerizing someone. You have to decide wether this instance of diablerie is a threat to you and to the Camarilla. If so, then you have to decide how to dispose of them. If it's just Jay then you could kill him on the spot. If it's Jay and a bunch of others, maybe you should bide your time and keep them under surveillance to crash their planes later.

 

[Wesp5]

One of the first things we learned about the game is that you're a thinblood, result of an illegal mass embrace, and that you're somehow trusted (BL1 style) to investigate what happened. The nail on that thinblood coffin is that we were gonna somehow attain full clan status. Which is not unheard of in the setting, but it's even more indicative of how the devs wanted to have their cake and eat it too.

As far as I remember you are not trusted to investigate what happened, you do it yourself because you inherit your haven from a vampire who already was investigating something. You can see this in the background of the demo videos, the wall pinned with all the hints. I agree though that turning the Thin Blood into a real vampire would have been a problem and I don't know what HSL planned there. Also I really disliked that the Thin Bloods had very powerful disciplines right from the start. At first you needed to choose one of them, but probably after HSL discovered that level design for three unique traversal disiplines was impossible, you got all three of them, so you were overpowered right from the start. Maybe that gave TCR the elder idea?

 

[Harthwain]

Sure! You can argue a great many things. I'm one of those people who prefers the concept of a Hunter game where you're a normal bucko trying to kill the neighborhood Nosferatu, rather than a holy vatican law soldier.

Honestly, I would like to see either, because there aren't that many vampire hunter games out there. Much less a detective-style gothic-atmosphere vampire hunter game.

But I'm talking about marketing there. And even this thread probably retains some post or another of people bitching that they are playing a shittier vampire.

To be honest, I think the fame of Bloodlines alone is good enough for marketing purposes. And while a thinblood is "a shittier vampire", I doubt the unwashed masses would know of it (the Codex isn't exactly a good barometer of an average player's expectations or behavior). I even hazard a guess that'd be a refreshing take on vampirism for a lot of people. Unless most people want a power fantasy, that is.

 

[Delterius]

Unless most people want a power fantasy, that is.

That's what I'm afraid of. Or, rather, that there could be this lingering fear in the marketing department. I can imagine people discussing the thinblood idea and putting it out there that you just can't make a game about vampire the masquerade and prevent the player from choosing a clan.

 

[Wesp5]

Sure! You can argue a great many things. I'm one of those people who prefers the concept of a Hunter game where you're a normal bucko trying to kill the neighborhood Nosferatu, rather than a holy vatican law soldier.

Honestly, I would like to see either, because there aren't that many vampire hunter games out there. Much less a detective-style gothic-atmosphere vampire hunter game.

In the latest Unoffcial Patch you can replay some combat missions as a hunter, intended as proof of concept for possible multiplayer coop maps, and there even is a Bloodlines mod in which you play as a hunter with story missions:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/vtmb-prelude/downloads/bloodlines-prelude-i-v18

 

[Storyfag]

And even this thread probably retains some post or another of people bitching that they are playing a shittier vampire.

That'd be me. I hate the spotlight the thinbloods are getting in V5 with a passion that'd make a Brujah stop in his tracks.

 

[scytheavatar]

The way I see it, the problem with the thinblood concept is two fold. First, one of marketing, ie the idea that playing a thinblood is merely playing a vampire except shittier.

Actually, you could argue that playing as a thinblood had potential. First of all - you can show the player that playing as a vampire isn't as fantastic as some people might think when they think or talk about becoming a vampire. Being a pariah of the vampire society would also be a good excuse to make the player take part in lower aspects of it, while still keeping them superior to human. It seemed to go that way in the beginning, considering the early reveal material for Bloodlines 2. Throw in a resource-limited system and it could've been an interesting game (at least on paper).

You should know by now that modern day RPG players don't want player dis-empowerment. They want to feel that they eventually become superheroes and power houses, rather than being doomed to become just another peon. The original vision is something that would appeal only to a niche audience. It is for this reason that we should be praying that we never see Dark Sun being released for 5e.

 

[deuxhero]

The way I see it, the problem with the thinblood concept is two fold. First, one of marketing, ie the idea that playing a thinblood is merely playing a vampire except shittier.

Actually, you could argue that playing as a thinblood had potential. First of all - you can show the player that playing as a vampire isn't as fantastic as some people might think when they think or talk about becoming a vampire. Being a pariah of the vampire society would also be a good excuse to make the player take part in lower aspects of it, while still keeping them superior to human. It seemed to go that way in the beginning, considering the early reveal material for Bloodlines 2. Throw in a resource-limited system and it could've been an interesting game (at least on paper).

Sure! You can argue a great many things. I'm one of those people who prefers the concept of a Hunter game where you're a normal bucko trying to kill the neighborhood Nosferatu, rather than a holy vatican law soldier. But I'm talking about marketing there. And even this thread probably retains some post or another of people bitching that they are playing a shittier vampire.

I think a Monster Hunter International base X-Com like (build base, send out employees to kill monsters that pop up) would be neat. Work better than the mess that is WoD's Hunter.

 

[ColaWerewolf]

There is a certain appeal to being a thinblood and choosing your clan by actively plotting to commit diablerie on a Kindred of a specific clan. It's a more active, in-game approach to obtaining a clan as opposed to passively waiting for the sire to choose you. Somewhat reminiscent of WoD Dracula not being Embraced by Ruthven's choice, but by capturing the elder vampire, turning him into a bitch, and forcing him to do the Embrace.

There's no way that's how it would've gone down in the HSL game, though.

 

[La vie sexuelle]

Did this German tell you any details about this cooperation? Or at least about the atmosphere around it?

He gave his thoughts in a not-quite-anonymous glassdoor review https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/vampire-the-masquerade-–-bloodlines-2-vtmb-sequel-from-the-chinese-room-coming-in-2024.126124/post-7443925

Thank you.

The reality is that Bloodlines 2 is a gigantic project and giving the game to a little proven studio like Hardsuit Labs was already a terrible idea. Yet options for Paradox is limited and they fucked up the moment they tried to make the game in the first place. You could see the same thing with the KOTOR remake and how even Microsoft knew it's doomed to fail when given to a nothing studio like Aspyr.

Did this German tell you any details about this cooperation? Or at least about the atmosphere around it?

He gave his thoughts in a not-quite-anonymous glassdoor review https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/vampire-the-masquerade-–-bloodlines-2-vtmb-sequel-from-the-chinese-room-coming-in-2024.126124/post-7443925

Sounds like Paradox gave Hardsuit Labs too much rope and they complained about Paradox cleaning up the corpse when they already hanged themselves. Paradox deserves blame but ultimately no one can deny that most of the blame has to go to Mitsoda and gang for their incompetence.

I'm wondering... The first information about this game was from 2018. Harduits Labs worked on it until 2021, four years. Sometime that same year, the Chinese Room takes over production and intends to release it in 2024, about three years after production. If they need that much time to finish, how bad was what Hardsuit Labs left behind?

The Hardsuit Labs game version has been completed - playable from start to finish with all planned content and mechanics ready, with only polishing remaining.
The Chinese Room have pretty much restarted the development from scratch. They are reusing some assets (I guess that means models and maybe some levels), but otherwise its going to be a new game with a new story & gameplay.
Frankly the situation is kind of weird. The few people who played it and could report it say the game was fun enough. So why scrap the finished game at all? It's not like Paradox is exactly rich or cares too much about IP (considering the amount of total rubbish they've released under it over the years).
I hope this stuff will go public at some point. Also would be fun to get a hold on the Hardsuit Labs game version.

In my opinion, HS cheated on Paradox until the end, and the Swedes, in their naivety, allowed themselves to be cheated. After all, all the trailers and companion games were released as if they were to coincide with the turn of the year (I wouldn't be surprised if one of the companion games was delayed for the sake of the release of Bloodlines 2). Eventually all the gadgets came out, Paradox sent someone to the HS office and then it seemed that this game could not be released either at the premiere or even in the same year. I'm not surprised that they wanted to delete it after all this.

If the Chinese Room fails, the shots of cleaned revolvers will resound in the Paradox headquarters.

 

[Fedora Master]

Good, hopefully it breaks PDXs back.

 

[Atlantico]

that I have experienced.

yes but can we trust your expertise you might have taken a vaccine

I find the cope of people who thought they were super smart getting injected with an experimental treatment made by a global pharamaco and pushed by the United States to be very satisfying. You fucked up big time. Just own it.

 

[Delterius]

that I have experienced.

yes but can we trust your expertise you might have taken a vaccine

I find the cope of people who thought they were super smart getting injected with an experimental treatment made by a global pharamaco and pushed by the United States to be very satisfying. You fucked up big time. Just own it.

yes i feel the siren call of autism stronger than ever before, i'm even posting in the codex together with y'all

 

[Atlantico]

that I have experienced.

yes but can we trust your expertise you might have taken a vaccine

I find the cope of people who thought they were super smart getting injected with an experimental treatment made by a global pharamaco and pushed by the United States to be very satisfying. You fucked up big time. Just own it.

yes i feel the siren call of autism stronger than ever before, i'm even posting in the codex together with y'all

and posting thoughts on pronoun-impaired vampires in long form, damn that vaccine!

 

[Vincente]

Video games?

 

[Delterius]

Video games?

trivago

 

[Atlantico]

Video games?

The game isn't out yet — if it will ever be out — and most people are just wasting time speculating on rumors and head-canon

At the moment there is no game to discuss, just fanciful guesswork and speculation

 

[True Ukrainian]

Unless most people want a power fantasy, that is.

That's what I'm afraid of. Or, rather, that there could be this lingering fear in the marketing department. I can imagine people discussing the thinblood idea and putting it out there that you just can't make a game about vampire the masquerade and prevent the player from choosing a clan.

You could do it by letting the thin blood player pick one clan discipline, which is allowed under the rules anyway as a perk, and after that pretend to be a member of that clan. In lore its what many caitiff do. Then close to the end of the game, the player is discovered as a dirty thin blood and this development is used to funnel the player toward the final battle.

 

[Herumor]

Good, hopefully it breaks PDXs back.

Never gonna happen, sadly enough, too many people still buying their DLCs for their other games at full price and on release. Royal Court and Tours & Tournaments cost 30 euros and those sure as fuck aren't expansion-tier DLCs to justify that kind of price tag, and yet people still ate it up and keep on buying.

People sure bitched about CA and their greed with Total Warhammer 3 DLC prices, but Paradox seems to get a pass on pulling that kind of shit.

 

[Delterius]

People sure bitched about CA

CA is uniquely magical because they are using all of that money to make the most transparently phony fortnite clone in the world.

 

[normie]

Unless most people want a power fantasy, that is.

That's what I'm afraid of. Or, rather, that there could be this lingering fear in the marketing department. I can imagine people discussing the thinblood idea and putting it out there that you just can't make a game about vampire the masquerade and prevent the player from choosing a clan.

You could do it by letting the thin blood player pick one clan discipline, which is allowed under the rules anyway as a perk, and after that pretend to be a member of that clan. In lore its what many caitiff do. Then close to the end of the game, the player is discovered as a dirty thin blood and this development is used to funnel the player toward the final battle.

nobody wants to play a fucking "thinblood" (gay), get real