World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 from Hardsuit Labs

[Wesp5]

Stat based games at least try to simulate RL.

Indeed! I found firearms combat in Bloodlines not bad, the crosshairs show your accuracy and once you got some reasonable stats, it played like a normal shooter. Not absolutely stupid as completely stat based RPGs like KOTOR, where the player would fire his blaster at the feet of an enemy even it it was only 1 meter away if he got bad stats ! I never played Bloodlines melee much, but I heard that there are some issues there with combos not working especially in Protean form...

 

[Kem0sabe]

RE: Combat sucked in the original too


Yeah. Combat was probably the worst part of the original. I'm not sure whether combat in Bloodlines II is slightly better or slightly worse, but let's say they're neck and neck. The thing is however, in the original you had something to fall back to because the game had a backbone comprised of interesting characters, subplots, etc.

Therefore if this game can't reproduce that it will fall apart like a house of cards.

People say combat sucked in Bloodlines but I find stat based combat always superior to twitch based combat of Dark Souls or Witcher 2/3.
So in my point of view, combat didn't suck at all. What sucked were some combat encounters where there were way too many copy/pasted enemies to kill.

If you are going to do an action rpg, then it should have skill based combat not some clunky shit tied to stats. And yes, Bloodline's combat was absolutely terrible.

Pick up a gun in RL and try to shoot a person 30m away that it also shooting you back. I bet you will miss 90% of your shots. Action games let you perform perfectly accurate headshots in such situations even when just starting at lvl 1.
Stat based games at least try to simulate RL.
Shit games like DS or Witcher 2/3 go a step further and turn into rolling simulators. In RL your character would die after few such rolls as he would fumble and then get killed easily. Fuck that shit.

No game can simulate real life, so why try? The goal for devs should be to implement enjoyable game systems not bad simulations and abstractions of how an real world action would translate into a game.

I much prefer to play an action rpg with a fun, fast, fluid combat system.

 

[Nano]

Interesting.

 

[FreeKaner]

If your game is first person shooter the best way to go about character progression is with abilities and non-combat elements. The way games approached this issue in combat so far by manipulating your aiming or accuracy always makes it feel as if you are a geriatric.

 

[ArchAngel]

If your game is first person shooter the best way to go about character progression is with abilities and non-combat elements. The way games approached this issue in combat so far by manipulating your aiming or accuracy always makes it feel as if you are a geriatric.

I bet you would also say that if you played more realistic shooters like Counter Strike where guns are also not 100% precise and stuff like recoil exists.

Just because you can hold and fire a gun it does not mean you are 100% capable to shooting anything with it. When you are special forces or cop level that also means you raised your gun skill in the game just like how it worked in Bloodlines.
If you are still doubting me, watch this:

 

[Zer0wing]

Well, in Bloodlines guns are borderline useless with zero points in firearms and you can only thank Troika for that, at least the shotgun doesn't hurt back with recoil and doesn't fall on the ground, ammo magazine doesn't fall off, uzi doesn't jam with long burst fire, you don't shoot yourself while holstering the pistol and most importantly - your character doesn't hold the weapon like a retard. Since guns in real life hurt the inexperienced shooter more than the target.

 

[Roguey]

People say combat sucked in Bloodlines but I find stat based combat always superior to twitch based combat of Dark Souls or Witcher 2/3.
So in my point of view, combat didn't suck at all. What sucked were some combat encounters where there were way too many copy/pasted enemies to kill.

Bloodlines was an action game where stats determined damage. It was a clunky-playing one.

To attack an enemy with a melee weapon, approach the enemy and click on
the attack button. When pressing one of the directional keys along with the
attack button, the vampire will perform one of four different combo moves.
Each direction (forward, back, left and right) causes another combo move to
occur when the attack button is pressed.
Note: Some combos cause the character to travel great distances, so
experiment with combos to learn which one works better for you.
Additionally, some combos are directional and others are in great arcs
that can strike multiple enemies.

Remember to change up your combos to keep the enemy off balance and
allow you to connect for more damage. If you continue to use the same combo
over and over, the enemy will have an easier time blocking and countering.
When your character hits an enemy, the Melee combat feat determines how
much damage is caused and how easily an opponent can defend against your
attack. Depending on the effectiveness of your melee attack and the defense
of the target, several things may occur:
• The target can be sent flying back through the air.
• The target can be knocked off balance and open for another attack.
• The target can block your attack and leave the vampire staggered and
unable to attack for a moment.
• The target can dodge the attack.
• The target can dodge the vampire’s attack and counterattack.
If the vampire is on the defensive, use blocking to get the upper hand in a
melee battle. If the character is actively blocking (default key: Tab), you’ll get
a defense bonus equal to the vampire’s dexterity. When actively blocking,
different results can occur:
• The enemy is knocked off balance and open for a counterattack.
• The character defends against some of the attacker’s damage.
• The character cannot block the attack and is sent off balance.
A character can quickly turn the tide of battle by using a well-timed block to
knock an enemy off balance and set him or her up for a big combo attack.
To summarize, a higher Melee combat skill increases the chance of landing
crushing blows and clean hits while reducing the odds of being
counterattacked. On the other hand, a higher Defense Feat means the
character will be knocked around less and blocks will throw attackers offbalance
and reduce the damage taken.

(doesn't sound like RPG combat to me; additionally, none of this is necessary, thankfully, considering how awkwardly it feels)

It's an eternal source of frustration how nearly everyone except me gets how Bloodlines handles firearm accuracy wrong. The ranged feat doesn't affect the stock accuracy of weapons at all, just damage and how quickly the reticule shrinks after moving or firing. Troika made the stock accuracy of Santa Monica and Downtown guns absurdly bad because of utterly stupid ideas about how the game should be balanced.

 

[ArchAngel]

People say combat sucked in Bloodlines but I find stat based combat always superior to twitch based combat of Dark Souls or Witcher 2/3.
So in my point of view, combat didn't suck at all. What sucked were some combat encounters where there were way too many copy/pasted enemies to kill.

Bloodlines was an action game where stats determined damage. It was a clunky-playing one.

To attack an enemy with a melee weapon, approach the enemy and click on
the attack button. When pressing one of the directional keys along with the
attack button, the vampire will perform one of four different combo moves.
Each direction (forward, back, left and right) causes another combo move to
occur when the attack button is pressed.
Note: Some combos cause the character to travel great distances, so
experiment with combos to learn which one works better for you.
Additionally, some combos are directional and others are in great arcs
that can strike multiple enemies.

Remember to change up your combos to keep the enemy off balance and
allow you to connect for more damage. If you continue to use the same combo
over and over, the enemy will have an easier time blocking and countering.
When your character hits an enemy, the Melee combat feat determines how
much damage is caused and how easily an opponent can defend against your
attack. Depending on the effectiveness of your melee attack and the defense
of the target, several things may occur:
• The target can be sent flying back through the air.
• The target can be knocked off balance and open for another attack.
• The target can block your attack and leave the vampire staggered and
unable to attack for a moment.
• The target can dodge the attack.
• The target can dodge the vampire’s attack and counterattack.
If the vampire is on the defensive, use blocking to get the upper hand in a
melee battle. If the character is actively blocking (default key: Tab), you’ll get
a defense bonus equal to the vampire’s dexterity. When actively blocking,
different results can occur:
• The enemy is knocked off balance and open for a counterattack.
• The character defends against some of the attacker’s damage.
• The character cannot block the attack and is sent off balance.
A character can quickly turn the tide of battle by using a well-timed block to
knock an enemy off balance and set him or her up for a big combo attack.
To summarize, a higher Melee combat skill increases the chance of landing
crushing blows and clean hits while reducing the odds of being
counterattacked. On the other hand, a higher Defense Feat means the
character will be knocked around less and blocks will throw attackers offbalance
and reduce the damage taken.

(doesn't sound like RPG combat to me; additionally, none of this is necessary, thankfully, considering how awkwardly it feels)

It's an eternal source of frustration how nearly everyone except me gets how Bloodlines handles firearm accuracy wrong. The ranged feat doesn't affect the stock accuracy of weapons at all, just damage and how quickly the reticule shrinks after moving or firing. Troika made the stock accuracy of Santa Monica and Downtown guns absurdly bad because of utterly stupid ideas about how the game should be balanced.

Lol, that is what accuracy is. Very few people can move fast and shoot straight. The rest just try to make sure that between stopping to aim and shooting and hitting someone least possible time is spent.

 

[FreeKaner]

I bet you would also say that if you played more realistic shooters like Counter Strike where guns are also not 100% precise and stuff like recoil exists.

Just because you can hold and fire a gun it does not mean you are 100% capable to shooting anything with it. When you are special forces or cop level that also means you raised your gun skill in the game just like how it worked in Bloodlines.
If you are still doubting me, watch this:

I am not necessarily against what you are saying here but it just doesn't apply well into first person games in an enjoyable manner. Overall it doesn't lead to "this guy doesn't know how to aim a gun and shoot it, even if he did he'd have hard time staying calm in a stressful situation". The result is just really janky like it was in bloodlines.

One way to implement this would be to have a workable baseline then add specialisations into it. So if you specialise into particular type of weapons, they get more accurate, stable and precise for example but without having it entirely useless where it feels like you are shooting blindfolded while having a seizure. Guns don't seem to be big part of the game regardless but more disposable tools secondary to your vampire abilities.

Also just no to any action game where damage is determined by stats.

 

[Kem0sabe]

People say combat sucked in Bloodlines but I find stat based combat always superior to twitch based combat of Dark Souls or Witcher 2/3.
So in my point of view, combat didn't suck at all. What sucked were some combat encounters where there were way too many copy/pasted enemies to kill.

Bloodlines was an action game where stats determined damage. It was a clunky-playing one.

To attack an enemy with a melee weapon, approach the enemy and click on
the attack button. When pressing one of the directional keys along with the
attack button, the vampire will perform one of four different combo moves.
Each direction (forward, back, left and right) causes another combo move to
occur when the attack button is pressed.
Note: Some combos cause the character to travel great distances, so
experiment with combos to learn which one works better for you.
Additionally, some combos are directional and others are in great arcs
that can strike multiple enemies.

Remember to change up your combos to keep the enemy off balance and
allow you to connect for more damage. If you continue to use the same combo
over and over, the enemy will have an easier time blocking and countering.
When your character hits an enemy, the Melee combat feat determines how
much damage is caused and how easily an opponent can defend against your
attack. Depending on the effectiveness of your melee attack and the defense
of the target, several things may occur:
• The target can be sent flying back through the air.
• The target can be knocked off balance and open for another attack.
• The target can block your attack and leave the vampire staggered and
unable to attack for a moment.
• The target can dodge the attack.
• The target can dodge the vampire’s attack and counterattack.
If the vampire is on the defensive, use blocking to get the upper hand in a
melee battle. If the character is actively blocking (default key: Tab), you’ll get
a defense bonus equal to the vampire’s dexterity. When actively blocking,
different results can occur:
• The enemy is knocked off balance and open for a counterattack.
• The character defends against some of the attacker’s damage.
• The character cannot block the attack and is sent off balance.
A character can quickly turn the tide of battle by using a well-timed block to
knock an enemy off balance and set him or her up for a big combo attack.
To summarize, a higher Melee combat skill increases the chance of landing
crushing blows and clean hits while reducing the odds of being
counterattacked. On the other hand, a higher Defense Feat means the
character will be knocked around less and blocks will throw attackers offbalance
and reduce the damage taken.

(doesn't sound like RPG combat to me; additionally, none of this is necessary, thankfully, considering how awkwardly it feels)

It's an eternal source of frustration how nearly everyone except me gets how Bloodlines handles firearm accuracy wrong. The ranged feat doesn't affect the stock accuracy of weapons at all, just damage and how quickly the reticule shrinks after moving or firing. Troika made the stock accuracy of Santa Monica and Downtown guns absurdly bad because of utterly stupid ideas about how the game should be balanced.

Lol, that is what accuracy is. Very few people can move fast and shoot straight. The rest just try to make sure that between stopping to aim and shooting and hitting someone least possible time is spent.

You are not playing as a person, you are playing a video-game character for entertainment.

 

[Nano]

The melee combat was way more entertaining than ranged combat. I enjoyed whacking enemies around with my katana.

 

[volklore]

You don't find accuracy/steadiness/recoil increase/decrease with stats entertaining in deus ex 1?

 

[Roguey]

Lol, that is what accuracy is. Very few people can move fast and shoot straight. The rest just try to make sure that between stopping to aim and shooting and hitting someone least possible time is spent.

Deus Ex: Human Revolution had this without making any guns bullet hoses (you could upgrade your character to reduce recoil and moving-while-shooting-accuracy so you could play more as a run and gunner).

Then there was Fallout New Vegas where meeting the skill requirements on any gun would allow perfect accuracy while aiming and standing motionless (and there were also perks that allowed you to run and gun better).

 

[Kem0sabe]

You don't find accuracy/steadiness/recoil increase/decrease with stats entertaining in deus ex 1?

No, it's clunky as fuck.

 

[Zer0wing]

You don't find accuracy/steadiness/recoil increase/decrease with stats entertaining in deus ex 1?

Definitely not how Deus Ex 1 handles it.

 

[Cross]

RE: Combat sucked in the original too


Yeah. Combat was probably the worst part of the original. I'm not sure whether combat in Bloodlines II is slightly better or slightly worse, but let's say they're neck and neck. The thing is however, in the original you had something to fall back to because the game had a backbone comprised of interesting characters, subplots, etc.

Therefore if this game can't reproduce that it will fall apart like a house of cards.

People say combat sucked in Bloodlines but I find stat based combat always superior to twitch based combat of Dark Souls or Witcher 2/3.

Bloodlines did "stat based combat" wrong. Deus Ex did it right by making your weapon skill affect how long it took for the crosshairs to tighten, with it occuring faster the higher your weapon skill, giving you direct feedback on where your shots will go. Once your crosshairs are tightened, you have the same accuracy as you do in any normal FPS. And with master weapon skill, your crosshairs tighten basically instantly.

In Bloodlines the crosshairs never tighten. Even with the highest possible ranged feat, they always stay wide apart even when standing perfectly still. This means you never know where your shots will go.

In Deus Ex weapon skill affects multiple things like reloading speed and movement speed while holding heavy weapons. In Bloodlines weapon skill only affects damage and (possibly) accuracy.

Bloodlines also has random damage, e.g. it's possible to see a weapon deal anywhere from 2 to 20 damage. Deus Ex, as well as every other action-RPG, avoids this and used fixed damage, and for good reason. Damage ranges exist in tabletop/turn-based RPGs to simulate the chaos and unpredictability of combat. This is not necessary in an action-RPG because that chaos is already there on account of it being an action game.

There's lots of other things Bloodlines does wrong, like how the 'block' move doesn't actually block anything and just marginally reduces damage, making it completely useless when you could have killed the enemy in the time it took to block. Or how enemies are almost always completely stationary when they attack, whereas in other FPS or action-RPGs they strafe and move around you. There's very little positive to say about Bloodlines' combat.

That being said, the combat in Bloodlines 2 looks even worse, which is quite an achievement.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

I always said VTMB needs:
- stealth and AI from MGS5
- gunplay from Far Cry
- melee combat from Chivalry

 

[ArchAngel]

RE: Combat sucked in the original too


Yeah. Combat was probably the worst part of the original. I'm not sure whether combat in Bloodlines II is slightly better or slightly worse, but let's say they're neck and neck. The thing is however, in the original you had something to fall back to because the game had a backbone comprised of interesting characters, subplots, etc.

Therefore if this game can't reproduce that it will fall apart like a house of cards.

People say combat sucked in Bloodlines but I find stat based combat always superior to twitch based combat of Dark Souls or Witcher 2/3.

Bloodlines did "stat based combat" wrong. Deus Ex did it right by making your weapon skill affect how long it took for the crosshairs to tighten, with it occuring faster the higher your weapon skill, giving you direct feedback on where your shots will go. Once your crosshairs are tightened, you have the same accuracy as you do in any normal FPS. And with master weapon skill, your crosshairs tighten basically instantly.

In Bloodlines the crosshairs never tighten. Even with the highest possible ranged feat, they always stay wide apart even when standing perfectly still. This means you never know where your shots will go.

In Deus Ex weapon skill affects multiple things like reloading speed and movement speed while holding heavy weapons. In Bloodlines weapon skill only affects damage and (possibly) accuracy.

Bloodlines also has random damage, e.g. it's possible to see a weapon deal anywhere from 2 to 20 damage. Deus Ex, as well as every other action-RPG, avoids this and used fixed damage, and for good reason. Damage ranges exist in tabletop/turn-based RPGs to simulate the chaos and unpredictability of combat. This is not necessary in an action-RPG because that chaos is already there on account of it being an action game.

There's lots of other things Bloodlines does wrong, like how the 'block' move doesn't actually block anything and just marginally reduces damage, making it completely useless when you could have killed the enemy in the time it took to block. Or how enemies are almost always completely stationary when they attack, whereas in other FPS or action-RPGs they strafe and move around you. There's very little positive to say about Bloodlines' combat.

Random damage is OK because not every shot will do same damage. It depends on multiple factors, mostly where it hits. And if the game does not have body part shooting random damage is only way to simulate this.

Also Deus Ex is a bad comparison. In Deus Ex you start as a hardcore and experienced police/military guy with enhancements. Of course your gun skill is already near max and all you invest into are masteries.

In Bloodlines you start as a random Joe that just got embraced. You cannot even choose your background and you just pick what skills you are proficient with. And I doubt anyone puts all their points into guns. I think combat was done OK. Guns missed as they should in RL (statistics show that cops miss a huge percentage of their shots and they are trained) and melee combat was messy as it is also often in RL. Nobody in RL does precise kung fu moves and takes down 5 people like they are Daredevil.

 

[ArchAngel]

People that claim Bloodlines combat was bad don't want a RPG, they want their power fantasy.

 

[Delterius]

and to those i'd say stop using stoopid guns and just grab celerity/thaumaturgy/wolf magic dangnabbitus

 

[Wesp5]

Deus Ex did it right by making your weapon skill affect how long it took for the crosshairs to tighten, with it occuring faster the higher your weapon skill, giving you direct feedback on where your shots will go.

This is exactly the same in Bloodlines.

In Bloodlines the crosshairs never tighten. Even with the highest possible ranged feat, they always stay wide apart even when standing perfectly still. This means you never know where your shots will go.

This depends on the guns in Bloodlines. Some stay wider apart than others because I guess not all weapons have the same accuracy even when handled perfectly.

In Deus Ex weapon skill affects multiple things like reloading speed and movement speed while holding heavy weapons.

Yeah, the weapon skill also affects if you can magically damage a target at all which I found really ridiculous at the time!

Bloodlines also has random damage, e.g. it's possible to see a weapon deal anywhere from 2 to 20 damage.

I think this is exaggerated, while there is some random damage fluctuation, it shouldn't be that high...

 

[Squid]

People say combat sucked in Bloodlines but I find stat based combat always superior to twitch based combat of Dark Souls or Witcher 2/3.
So in my point of view, combat didn't suck at all. What sucked were some combat encounters where there were way too many copy/pasted enemies to kill.

I agree with this if I want to play a RPG.

I don't mind twitch based combat, I like games that require my skill in combat but I don't want that in a RPG. I'd go play a FPS game if I want to test my skills. I don't mind Dark Souls and Witcher combat but they really take away from the idea of RPG if you ask me and make them at most action-RPGs. Stat based combat is how RPGs should be.

 

[Child of Malkav]

Missed shots, missed this missed that, simulate real life, accuracy, recoil etc.
So basically you want this kind of retarded shit cus it's realistic:

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

THAT face...

Speaking of which... don't they call that guy a thinblood in the demo? If he's a thinblood he shouldn't be malformed like that, like a regular Nosferatu.

You can definitely expect them to play fast and loose with the lore. They're already doing this whole 'from thin-blood to powerful vampire' thing, so...

Though in this case we run into a bit of a quagmire in that "Thin-Blood" in regards to how it's used in the setting is very fast and loose and often extremely dependent on the specific time period (ie, before 20th century, 12th Generation was already considered a Thin-Blood and 13th Gen was prone to kill-on-sight domain policy), and in regards to editions while Thin-Bloods in V5 can't have that particular weakness in previous editions since they were essentially sets of additional Flaws and scant Merits they COULD (and by default would) have Clan Weaknesses (though in previous editions the Nosferatu Clan Weakness could be taken as extra by ANY vampire, so that's just another layer of caveats to note).

 

[Zombra]

RPGs are absolutely not superior "realism simulators". "Realism" in gun handling and stat-based combat are two very distinct (though related) issues. Many games have realistic gun handling (wandering reticles, bullet spread, reduced accuracy while moving etc.) but do not use RPG stats. Also, many games have RPG stats but don't use any stuff like this, just modifiers to damage or "forced" misses. My favorite example of a game that knows what it's trying to do and pulls it off brilliantly is the first Silent Hill, where the protagonist was "just some guy" so his aim was always crap and combat was deliberately clunky to reflect it.

In my opinion, the ideal action-RPG should use all the same systems advanced shooters do, and have those systems governed by character stats, in a perfect marriage of strong gameplay and character building relevance. I absolutely want my crosshair wandering all over the screen if my character's skill level sucks. Guys like Kem0sabe who expect character stats to be irrelevant in the gameplay can and should max their character skill levels. If you want to play a character who can shoot straight, build a character who can shoot straight. Not rocket science.

In this specific case, however, I don't need Bloodlines 2 to strive for this particular ideal; it should invest its development hours in what's important. I feel like they've made a strong declaration about this in their "you throw away guns" move; again, no matter what your stats, the player character is not going to be a United States Marine. Which is fine; nobody with an ounce of sense came to this thread expecting the world's best-designed first-person shooter.