Warhammer Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader Pre-Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Storyfag]

Don't forget the vote for Sphere Diplomacy in Treave's epic.

THAT one I voted against!

 

[Nm6k]

There would need to be a very good bait, some chaos agent would need to tempt or manipulate RT and do a damn good job at it. Joining chaos just because, would be stupidity considering how much power, wealth and authority RT holds in Imperium.
What I saw in Alpha was not a very good way to put you on that path.

Yeah quite a lot of people in the discord including me complained about it. Hopefully they actually listened

 

[Technomancer]

Chaos is worse as your "final reward" for joining the bad guys is your soul to be skull-fucked for all eternity

Is it really what happens tho? Becoming a daemon prince is basically merging your soul with oversoul warp entity known as chaos gods. You won't get your soul fucked or tormented like if it was extracted and consumed from some normies but you basically join chaos on a metaphysical level becoming a part of a greater "organism". Not to be brutally absorbed and feasted upon but warped and changed, ultimately on your own terms and granting you protection forever. The damned part is referring to being a "slave" of chaos and the fact that it will never be possible to get your soul back once this happened and you are altered for good. And I don't think god things can even revoke that status for failure and all demon princes get to enjoy eternal existence without a fear of retribution or final destruction. And that slave part is exaggerated. Gods don't demand much from you (beyond what you already enjoy doing being a fucked up perverted psycho for joining them in the first place) and basically have free agency to do whatever you want to as long as it serves the cause of your "master". Describing this mutually beneficial business like relationship as slavery is fairly dramatic and princedom is way more symbiotic in nature than slavish servitude.

Emperor also feasts upon souls being same (in metaphysical sense) chaos thing abomination but with being anchored to real space. They feed him mass sacrifices. But we just don't talk about it. Sucks to be them right, but no biggie, its for the good cause?

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Chaos is worse as your "final reward" for joining the bad guys is your soul to be skull-fucked for all eternity

Is it really what happens tho? Becoming a daemon prince is basically merging your soul with oversoul warp entity known as chaos gods. You won't get your soul fucked or tormented like if it was extracted and consumed from some normies but you basically join chaos on a metaphysical level becoming a part of a greater "organism". Not to be brutally absorbed and feasted upon but warped and changed, ultimately on your own terms and granting you protection forever.

My issue with it is that it's unclear whether there's a continuity of consciousness before and after ascension. Perhaps there is until you get killed in meatspace for the first time, but afterwards as a purely warp entity I don't see how you'd still be *you* rather than the daemon prince being a distinct being who inherits your personality, memories & co. Given that blanks are a thing in the lore, it's safe to assume that consciousness is tied to your flesh and not to your soul. It's kind of like the notion of reincarnation in real life religions - cool in theory, shit in practice if you actually gave it some thought (since even if you can tap into memories of 'your' previous lives and retain the mental inclinations specific to your soul, the actual people that had lived those previous lives are still ultimately dead as a matter of consciousness despite their soul's subsequent perpetuation into new bodies).

That's why Abaddon's choice of retaining his soul rather than committing de facto suicide through daemonic ascension seems best. He's still himself and he'll get to experience a long life as an overpowered mortal favored by Chaos.

 

[Cryomancer]

Becoming a daemon prince

Among the TRILLIONS of chaos cultists, how many managed to become daemon princes? Correct me if I'm wrong, but daemon princes are rarer than alpha plus psykers.

 

[Technomancer]

Among the TRILLIONS of chaos cultists, how many managed to become daemon princes? Correct me if I'm wrong, but daemon princes are rarer than alpha plus psykers.

Ultra rare. Was not relevant to my point though. Guy said 'final reward' so I spoke about that.

My issue with it is that it's unclear whether there's a continuity of consciousness before and after ascension

I guess its overrated to some and they try to think about it in a more practical way. Would totally be an in character dick move chaos would try to pull. But overall it is a deeply philosophical metaphysical question. Some people mock it with 'can you really be sure that you are you after you wake up after each dream sequence?' type of questions.

 

[Average Manatee]

Orks are the good guys of WH40k

Always treating others the way they want to be treated. Live in harmony with the universe (eternal war), not trying to bend it to their whims. Happily doing their thing and not afraid of their fate despite the horrors that they face. They possess individuality but are immune to chaos and avoid most of the personality defects that other races commonly suffer from. They don't hold long grudges against each other, they don't scheme much, they aren't covetous, they don't have an extreme desire for power or control over others for its own sake, only for the purpose of furthering their communal goals of Waaagh!. They even respect other races on the same terms of their own, for example the Emperor is considered to be a strong git indeed by the Orks and they can see why Humans worship him since he fought really well (still pales in comparison to Gork and Mork of course). A day in the life of an Ork is either fun (Waaagh!) or ecstacy (Big Waaagh!),

The reason we can't have an RPG playing as a Ork is because they are literally too perfect such that it wouldn't be interesting. There's no drama without our feeble human failings to wrap a story around. As Tolstoy said, "All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way." Orks exist in a nirvana where they are above us and beyond us.

 

[Joyvankek]

Chaos is worse as your "final reward" for joining the bad guys is your soul to be skull-fucked for all eternity

Is it really what happens tho? Becoming a daemon prince is basically merging your soul with oversoul warp entity known as chaos gods. You won't get your soul fucked or tormented like if it was extracted and consumed from some normies but you basically join chaos on a metaphysical level becoming a part of a greater "organism". Not to be brutally absorbed and feasted upon but warped and changed, ultimately on your own terms and granting you protection forever.

My issue with it is that it's unclear whether there's a continuity of consciousness before and after ascension. Perhaps there is until you get killed in meatspace for the first time, but afterwards as a purely warp entity I don't see how you'd still be *you* rather than the daemon prince being a distinct being who inherits your personality, memories & co. Given that blanks are a thing in the lore, it's safe to assume that consciousness is tied to your flesh and not to your soul. It's kind of like the notion of reincarnation in real life religions - cool in theory, shit in practice if you actually gave it some thought (since even if you can tap into memories of 'your' previous lives and retain the mental inclinations specific to your soul, the actual people that had lived those previous lives are still ultimately dead as a matter of consciousness despite their soul's subsequent perpetuation into new bodies).

That's why Abaddon's choice of retaining his soul rather than committing de facto suicide through daemonic ascension seems best. He's still himself and he'll get to experience a long life as an overpowered mortal favored by Chaos.

Strong enough psykers are capable of retaining their form and memories after their death, though that's rather short existence considering that what used to be realm of souls is now known as warp.
We also know that eldars at the peak of their power didn't really care about death since they would just reincarnate in new bodies. That's what also doomed them, since if you just can respawn later on, then planed wide murder orgy isn't a big deal for you.(For a time)
I would assume that after your ascension into demonhood it works similar to that, and you are yourself after it. Though you are a demon at that point since even your soul is getting warped.

Since we also have blanks and necrons, I would assume that souls of psykers can store their memories working as a back up, but you can be sapient even without a soul.

 

[Joyvankek]

Orks are the good guys of WH40k

Always treating others the way they want to be treated. Live in harmony with the universe (eternal war), not trying to bend it to their whims. Happily doing their thing and not afraid of their fate despite the horrors that they face. They possess individuality but are immune to chaos and avoid most of the personality defects that other races commonly suffer from. They don't hold long grudges against each other, they don't scheme much, they aren't covetous, they don't have an extreme desire for power or control over others for its own sake, only for the purpose of furthering their communal goals of Waaagh!. A day in the life of an Ork is either fun (Waaagh!) or ecstacy (Big Waaagh!)

The reason we can't have an RPG playing as a Ork is because they are literally too perfect such that it wouldn't be interesting. There's no drama without our feeble human failings to wrap a story around. As Tolstoy said, "All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way." Orks exist in a nirvana where they are above us and beyond us.

Implying that humanity isn't the perfect species of which destiny is to rule both materium and immaterium.

 

[Harthwain]

Describing this mutually beneficial business like relationship as slavery is fairly dramatic

There is a difference between mutually beneficial business relationship and slavery. The former means you're actually free to do whatever you want. The latter means someone is holding your leash, even if it's a very long leash.

Emperor also feasts upon souls being same (in metaphysical sense) chaos thing abomination but with being anchored to real space. They feed him mass sacrifices. But we just don't talk about it. Sucks to be them right, but no biggie, its for the good cause?

It's easy to rationalize this, because the Mankind needs to do this in order to keep functioning. There is also this deep hatred towards "the witches", meaning sacrificing them would be seen as beneficial in minds of most people of the Imperium (especially if you buy the idea that the Emperor is protecting his followers). So, yeah, "it's for the good cause". That said, Imperium of Man being hypocritical and operating horribly inefficiently is a bit of a trademark in the setting, and the reason why it can't dominate the galaxy and is in stalemate (if not in decline).

 

[Technomancer]

There is a difference between mutually beneficial business relationship and slavery. The former means you're actually free to do whatever you want. The latter means someone is holding your leash, even if it's a very long leash.

Still is a matter of perspective. While you retain individual personality on "ascension" you also become more than what you were. And less. Much less of a human losing most of humanity and becomeing more a part of (un)natural force. And acting in its benefit is not only beneficial for you, it is practically required because by serving it, you empower yourself feeding and being a warp thing connected to the same source (chaos god). You are it in some sense. Because you can no longer exist without it and you are part of it, just as it is part of you. Individual sentience is the only thing that separates you as a being. While it is easy to see it as fundamental loss of freedom being forever bound to a manifested idea, you also still gain a lot in return for it. Traditional slavery rarely is mutually beneficial and usually is way more exploitative. There is certainly no symbiotic connection between mundane master and slave.

 

[lightbane]

Don't forget the vote for Sphere Diplomacy in Treave's epic.

I don't know how it ended so badly. There was no warning anywhere that the spheres were so hilariously evil and dangerous. There should have been another vote for a warning. Although choices having over-the-top negative consequences is trademark for treave.

Is it really what happens tho? Becoming a daemon prince is basically merging your soul with oversoul warp entity known as chaos gods. You won't get your soul fucked or tormented like if it was extracted and consumed from some normies but you basically join chaos on a metaphysical level becoming a part of a greater "organism". Not to be brutally absorbed and feasted upon but warped and changed, ultimately on your own terms and granting you protection forever.

The chances of becoming a D. Prince are 1/100000000000. Also, by gaining enough favour to get to that level, you must become a serious scum.
Said protection is not forever though...

And I don't think god things can even revoke that status for failure and all demon princes get to enjoy eternal existence without a fear of retribution or final destruction.

Unless you meet a Grey Knight or a psyker with enough power to annihilate you forever, which they exist. Or the god you serve decides to punish you for your failures and you're downgraded into becoming a mindless Chaos Spawn, forever. The latter can happen.

Gods don't demand much from you (beyond what you already enjoy doing being a fucked up perverted psycho for joining them in the first place) and basically have free agency to do whatever you want to as long as it serves the cause of your "master".

You're forgetting that no matter your intentions, serving Chaos has only one possible end, as your brains literally ends up melting from the sheer corruptive EVIL! force-fed upon you. Once you're with Chaos, you're in a race to become a Daemon Prince, or avoid attracting the Gods' attention too much lest you become a Daemon Spawn.

Emperor also feasts upon souls being same (in metaphysical sense) chaos thing abomination but with being anchored to real space. They feed him mass sacrifices. But we just don't talk about it. Sucks to be them right, but no biggie, its for the good cause?

They feed unstable and weak psykers that are a danger to everyone and everything including themselves, so it's a necessary evil.

 

[Trithne]

It's debatable whether they're even "feeding" The Emperor anyway. The psykers are to power the Golden Throne, which in theory keeps Big E alive to broadcast the light of the Astronomican, but that could just be a function of the throne itself too. Inquisitors get into fights with each other about shit like that.

 

[Technomancer]

You're forgetting that no matter your intentions, serving Chaos has only one possible end, as your brains literally ends up melting from the sheer corruptive EVIL! force-fed upon you. Once you're with Chaos, you're in a race to become a Daemon Prince, or avoid attracting the Gods' attention too much lest you become a Daemon Spawn.

A bit of healthy (un)friendly competition and a timer to spice it up and put a spin on the grind for good ladder climbers. All of them are volunteers after all, drawn to damnation by their own will and ambition.

Or the god you serve decides to punish you for your failures and you're downgraded into becoming a mindless Chaos Spawn, forever. The latter can happen.

Does it happen in practice, though? Any famous named daemon princes in lore that were destroyed by warp gods or devolved for failure? Doesn't seem like it happens often. Since those who climbed the top are competent and it is unlikely for them to fail consistently to warrant a permanent punishment of such severity. Unless they fail spectacularly due to odds stacked against them. If they care for it among each other, it is also bad prestige for the gods as well. Since that would mean they elevated someone unworthy only to kick them out, error of judgment on their part.

 

[ArchAngel]

Anyone criticizing IoM, check this out to see why it is needed. What kind of horrors await:

Also this cinematic is awesome so watch for whatever reason.

 

[Storyfag]

Emperor also feasts upon souls being same (in metaphysical sense) chaos thing abomination but with being anchored to real space. They feed him mass sacrifices. But we just don't talk about it.

No, we celebrate it.

 

[Harthwain]

While it is easy to see it as fundamental loss of freedom being forever bound to a manifested idea, you also still gain a lot in return for it. Traditional slavery rarely is mutually beneficial and usually is way more exploitative. There is certainly no symbiotic connection between mundane master and slave.

It's not business relationship though - you're literally selling your soul to the devil. Whatever power you gain will not change the fact that you're not your own master after that and Chaos Gods can do whatever they want with you. Serving Chaos isn't as "mutually beneficial" as you think and IS extremely exploitative by nature, because except some rare cases people (and their souls) are akin to coins to demons. Just because there are benefits to serving Dark Gods doesn't change any of that. Just recall how many poor schmucks get turned into minced meat without achieving anything of note.

 

[Yosharian]

Wait people are actually arguing in favour of serving chaos gods?

 

[Yosharian]

Anyone criticizing IoM, check this out to see why it is needed. What kind of horrors await:

Also this cinematic is awesome so watch for whatever reason.

It just looks so bland and boring.

 

[PrK]

Owlcat_Eyler , now that MCA is exonerated (we always knew ofc), will you hire him again for some much needed writing help? Either for a Rogue Trader expansion or the next game (hopefully still PF 1E), or is he considered unnecessary (in that case think again)?

 

[Cryomancer]

Owlcat_Eyler , now that MCA is exonerated (we always knew ofc), will you hire him again for some much needed writing help? Either for a Rogue Trader expansion or the next game (hopefully still PF 1E), or is he considered unnecessary (in that case think again)?

IMO OwlCat should adapt another PF1e AP, make a Warhammer fantasy game, adapt a retroclone, anything but not pf2e and 5e.

As for the MCA, progressists believe that any bizarre change is """progress""", hence destroying the individual "blind" justice based on evidences and establishing a thing worse than witch hunt trials(guilty until proven innocent) which considers people guilty even after proving innocent is ""progress"" for them.

--------------

Does anyone has an list of the psyker spells available in this game? I could't find it.

 

[Technomancer]

Wait people are actually arguing in favour of serving chaos gods?

Not really. Only from a point of those who were fucked up in the first place and achieved ambitions they wanted.

It's not business relationship though - you're literally selling your soul to the devil. Whatever power you gain will not change the fact that you're not your own master after that and Chaos Gods can do whatever they want with you. Serving Chaos isn't as "mutually beneficial" as you think and IS extremely exploitative by nature, because except some rare cases people (and their souls) are akin to coins to demons. Just because there are benefits to serving Dark Gods doesn't change any of that. Just recall how many poor schmucks get turned into minced meat without achieving anything of note.

I could argue semantics, as when you become so completely bound to something that you are basically a minor aspect of it, is it just slavery at this point? It is from one point view, from another you do not serve any more but act as one will and nature with it. More importantly, even without embracing chaos, many mundane people are not their own masters because imperium as well does not shy away from slavery. Vast human hordes will end up serving imperium war machine in one way or another, whether they like it or not.

As for schmucks I really only spoke about princes not chaff. I'm still not sure they are punished for failure in any significant way. And so far there are few ways to destroy them for good. And being turned into mince meat is not that big of a deal when ruinous powers can eventually manifest you a new body to try again.

 

[Harthwain]

I could argue semantics, as when you become so completely bound to something that you are basically a minor aspect of it, is it just a slavery at this point?

You have to reach that point first. And if you're a minor aspect of an entire being, then you're not in the driving seat, so it may not be slavery but it being beneficial to you becomes preeeeety questionable. I would compare it to being assimiliated by a hive mind or an AI at this point.

More importantly, even without embracing chaos, many mundane people are not their own master because imperium as well does not shy away from slavery. In one way or another, vast human hordes will end up serving imperium war machine in one way or another, whether they like it or not.

That's true - ironically enough - which is why people end up serving Chaos Gods regardless: the alternative is so shitty they decide to go "fuck it" and have a shot at power, regardless of how fucked up the end result may be. They also most likely not fully realize what they're getting into. It's not like people get a Warhammer 40,000 manual to read or something.

As for schmucks I really only spoke about princes not chaff. I'm still not sure they are punished for failure in any significant way. And so far there are few ways to destroy them for good. And being turned into mince meat is not that big of a deal when ruinous powers can eventually manifest you a new body to try again.

Odds of becoming a Demon Prince are lesser than becoming a Space Marine and the Ruinous Powers don't favour many with constant ressurection as they do with Eliphas the Inheritor (which was done mainly to explain in-lore how he could've been defeated yet still return to play a role in each next Dawn of War game of the series, similarly to how Warboss Gorgutz managed to evade getting captured).

 

[Technomancer]

You have to reach that point first. And if you're a minor aspect of an entire being, then you're not in the driving seat, so it may not be slavery but it being beneficial to you becomes somewhat questionable. I would compare it to being assimiliated by a hive mind or an AI at this point.

Indeed, but like I said previously, individual memories and ego, or what it becomes in its maddened corrupted state is what separates you from it so you do not become truly gestalt, at least on a cerebral level (totally on a metaphysical soul warp stuff). Which from something as screwed up as chaos seems rather generous (no one would bother if the reward was not worth it in some way). And it is beneficial for Gods as well since I recall reading that they value former mortals' insight, that true original daemons do not possess.

 

[Cryomancer]

semantics

IS not semantic. An psyker is not like a D&D Wizard. Magic in wh40k is incredible dangerous. For psyker without control over his power, being scarified for the emperor is much better outcome becoming a daemonic portal, and transforming an entire world into a hell on earth and/or being sucked into the immaterial and being sodomized 24/7 by demons forever.

And most people who serve chaos has this second outcome.