Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Was Warcraft 3 historically considered bad?

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
21,507
Sc2 zerg changed over time. At release they were weakest early game as there was so much cheese that worked too good vs Zerg (anyone remembers terran building bunkers at bottom of zerg's ramps?), then Queens were buffed and they were best at end game with mass spamming of Brood Lords and support units. Then in latest version they usually die if you let the game get that far and Zergs are about well timed rushes again.

I only played wings of liberty(I was burned out way before HOTS came out), and I had like a 85% winrate roach rushing people on zerg starting close to release, so I'm not sure I agree with all that. Although


Basically, I got to fairly high diamond in 1v1's almost exclusively by 6 pooling(until gold) than roach rushing the rest of the way. If I did not win the game before 8-9 minutes, I would quit and queue up for the next one because my chance to win would drop dramatically against mass marines or on the rare occasion a protoss player managed to turtle and build up enough.
You played vs bad players, good ones fast learned how to stop that. And soon people started using stupid cheese vs zerg that would stop all you said. You would not make it to roaches

It got so bad especially in TvZ that tournaments had to use special maps that added blockers to bottom of Zerg ramp so Terran cannot block the exit with buildings.. later Blizzard just made all maps have that.

EDIT: I was also Diamond with Zerg in early WoL and I didn't cheese (well I would 6 pool sometimes and baneling bust some other times :D) but I never considered myself a good player but everyone was bad at start.
 

Beans00

Erudite
Shitposter
Joined
Aug 27, 2008
Messages
1,777
You played vs bad players,

Whether strategy's evolved I couldn't tell you. I played the shit out of WoL for like 2 years and quit sometime in 2012. If people started stopping me I would have adapted or switched to Terran. No big deal.

I used to 6 pool into roaches, so I was able to stop terran from blocking the exits a lot of the time. Not every time of course, sometimes they got me.

In 4v4's I played with 3 friends, and 3 of us would roach rush while 4th guy built mass marines/med ships. We all got to master lol.

Protoss were slow and usually no problem.
 

RaggleFraggle

Ask me about VTM
Joined
Mar 23, 2022
Messages
1,479
I thought the story was infantile
I thought the story was a ripoff of Star Craft's, same story beats but with slightly different characters and in a fantasy setting.

- In StarCraft, Kerrigan starts out as an elite soldier of the humans, gets abducted by Zerg who turn her into their queen, chapter 2 is all about Kerrigan's rise to the top of the Zerg hierarchy, then chapter 3 is about the Protoss fighting back against her hordes.
- In WarCraft 3, Arthas starts out as the prince of the human kingdom fighting against undead, he gets corrupted by a magic sword, then he becomes king of the undead, chapter 2 is all about Arthas's rise to the top of undead hierarchy, then the final chapter is about the Night Elves fighting back against their hordes. The main difference is that there's a fourth race with the Orcs, but their chapter is pretty standalone and doesn't really impact the overall story.

It's quite obvious that they just followed the exact same story beats as StarCraft.
This is the same plot outline used by all Blizz and ex-Blizz games. They can’t write anything else.

Stormgate is doing the same thing. Amara starts out as elite human soldier, gets corrupted by magic sword last we saw her, and will probably become demon queen, then the angels will fight her hordes.
 

ghardy

Educated
Joined
Jun 18, 2024
Messages
352
Stormgate is doing the same thing. Amara starts out as elite human soldier, gets corrupted by magic sword last we saw her, and will probably become demon queen, then the angels will fight her hordes.
Except Kerrigan and Arthas looked somewhat human and not amphibian

amara-beforeafter_v6.png


The revised version still sucks.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
58,446
Chris Metzen was the achilles heel of Blizzard during their golden age, there's just no question about it. Not even the production values and quality voice acting could save the utter inane mediocrities that came out of his dumb brain. I don't know whose idea it was to put him in charge of the writing department but it was of the biggest mistake they could have done.

Rob Pardo was the real reason the game succeded. I think the guy is an underrated designer and Blizzard suffered when he was "promoted" to producer. He is like the Chris Avellone of Blizzard in that sense.
 

His Dudeness

Augur
Joined
Oct 17, 2010
Messages
485
Location
Quilmes, Argentina
W3 was never considered bad. The hype pre-release was insane, I remember going to cyber cafes and playing the night elves demo over and over again, same as everybody else.

It pretty much replaced StarCraft for me and my friends, and the mods extended its longevity even further.

The campaign was also amazing.
 
Joined
May 11, 2007
Messages
1,854,467
Location
Belém do Pará, Império do Brasil
I thought the story was infantile
I thought the story was a ripoff of Star Craft's, same story beats but with slightly different characters and in a fantasy setting.

- In StarCraft, Kerrigan starts out as an elite soldier of the humans, gets abducted by Zerg who turn her into their queen, chapter 2 is all about Kerrigan's rise to the top of the Zerg hierarchy, then chapter 3 is about the Protoss fighting back against her hordes.
- In WarCraft 3, Arthas starts out as the prince of the human kingdom fighting against undead, he gets corrupted by a magic sword, then he becomes king of the undead, chapter 2 is all about Arthas's rise to the top of undead hierarchy, then the final chapter is about the Night Elves fighting back against their hordes. The main difference is that there's a fourth race with the Orcs, but their chapter is pretty standalone and doesn't really impact the overall story.

It's quite obvious that they just followed the exact same story beats as StarCraft.
Arthas and Kerrigan are pretty different, tho.
Kerrigan wasn't the protag of the campaign, for starters.
Kerrigan was also a victim of the Zerg, at least until Brood War. AFAIK the only moment when Kerrigan was truly herself was letting Jim Raynor bail out from Char.
You play as Arthas in the human campaign. Arthas also shows clear signs of not being quite hero material all over the campaign, then you have the whole "Purge this City" thing which is pretty hardcore anti-hero stuff. Arthas loses Jaina and Uther as his moral support, and he only gets worse from here.

Kerrigan wasn't corrupted as much as she was kidnapped, altered and brainwashed.
Arthas was ultimately corrupted, yes, but Frostmourne was pretty much the last push he needed to fall over the cliff.

Orcs impact the overall story quite a bit, it develops Thrall and Hellscream, it introduces the Night Elves, shows the corruption of the Orcs, sets up the Human-Orc Coalition vs the Burning Legion and the Undead.

If you eliminate the Orcish campaign, the Night Elf campaign looks totally senseless, because NE then have no reason to be pissed, and the Humans and Orcs are allies in that campaign (unprecedented in Warcraft until then), which you spend the better part of the campaign fighting as often as you fight the Burning Legion - until Medivh makes all the leaders meet and clunks their heads together while saying "Stop being retards". A big part of the NE Campaign is that they spend most of it going "HSSSSSSS!" because the Corrupted Orcs killed Cenarius and a bunch of random people they never saw are now fighting the Burning Legion all over their forest.
 

RaggleFraggle

Ask me about VTM
Joined
Mar 23, 2022
Messages
1,479
AFAIK the only moment when Kerrigan was truly herself was letting Jim Raynor bail out from Char.
Ah yes, contrived plot armor. It makes no sense for the zerg to let an enemy at their mercy leave and regroup. They have no concept of mercy because they’re omnivoracious space bugs. Metzen can’t write anything consistently.
 

jackofshadows

Arcane
Joined
Oct 21, 2019
Messages
5,165
A much more coherent and much less aesthetically deaf position, yet one that still that denies the consequences.
I don't understand this point. Let's say you're 100% correct then how "the consequences" contribute to actual subj qualities? Hate boner? Sure.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
21,507
AFAIK the only moment when Kerrigan was truly herself was letting Jim Raynor bail out from Char.
Ah yes, contrived plot armor. It makes no sense for the zerg to let an enemy at their mercy leave and regroup. They have no concept of mercy because they’re omnivoracious space bugs. Metzen can’t write anything consistently.
The whole point was that she was not full Zerg, she had her own will and decided to let him go as she considered him to not be a threat.
 

RaggleFraggle

Ask me about VTM
Joined
Mar 23, 2022
Messages
1,479
AFAIK the only moment when Kerrigan was truly herself was letting Jim Raynor bail out from Char.
Ah yes, contrived plot armor. It makes no sense for the zerg to let an enemy at their mercy leave and regroup. They have no concept of mercy because they’re omnivoracious space bugs. Metzen can’t write anything consistently.
The whole point was that she was not full Zerg, she had her own will and decided to let him go as she considered him to not be a threat.
The other zerg were there. They had orders. Why would they allow this when they were there to kill the terrans? It completely undercuts the threat the zerg pose.

A ballsy writer would’ve killed Raynor right there. It’s the only logical outcome out of walking into the lion’s den.

Why even preserve her personality and appearance? The zerg don’t value any of that. They value making better killing machines. Kerry’s entire character is completely at odds with the zerg’s concept, turning them into a incoherent mess. The only logical thing for the zerg to do is to dissemble her, discard everything human (face, personality, etc), take the psychic powers and mass clone new monsters with said powers, like they do with ever other species they consume.
 

Jaedar

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 5, 2009
Messages
10,201
Project: Eternity Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker
Arthas was ultimately corrupted, yes, but Frostmourne was pretty much the last push he needed to fall over the cliff.
He kills/sacrifices an old friend of his to claim the blade. So yeah, he was already falling off the cliff by the time he laid his hands on it.

"Purge this City"



More on topic, I remember wc3 as being primarily played and regarded as an engine/platform for custom content (especially dota, but there was a lot of other popular stuff like tower defense maps, footman frenzy, etc, etc), and secondarily as a rts in itself. Overshadowed by its own map maker yes, but not bad.
 

Ravielsk

Magister
Joined
Feb 20, 2021
Messages
1,772
I’m sick of the corrupted hero plot. Blizz never pulled it off well and it wastes time that could’ve been spent actually fleshing out the factions. It worked when we were dumb kids with no taste, but now that we’re adults who saw Game of Thrones, that’s not gonna work now. Writers need to put actual effort into characterization and world building now if they want our attention.
They pulled it off once and have been chasing that high ever since. Arthas is a textbook example of what fall from grace should be and Blizz has been trying to recreate him in one way or another and has been consistently failing every single time because like most of the fanbase completely missed what made Arthas and his story so captivating.

For one Arthas was a flawed guy from the start, operative word here bein FLAWED. He was not perfect but at the same time he was not a bag of defects and red flags, he was for all intends and purposes a normal guy. So not only was it easy to see yourself in him but it also made a while also keeping the suspense as to whether he will fall or prevail. Up until the very end you could see all of his decision as either signs of degeneration or maturation. For example him burning his ships to force his men to fight can be both seen as him going crazy for vengeance or as him simply making the hard choice of cutting himself off for the sake of his mission.

For another he never really "fucked up" as in he never really made a deliberately terrible decision. Considering his position and the knowledge at hands he always made a rational, even if not the best decision. Even the purge of Stratholme was more a case of his hand being forced rather than him going unga bunga. He could not let the city zombifie and basically hand Mal'Ganis an army on a silver plater and there was not enough time for much of anything else, so he made the tough call that no one else wanted to make. Sure you can see it as the moment when his true monstrous nature was revealed but at the same time its hard to argue that he is not displaying the qualities of a true leader who can make even the hardest of decisions.

Paradoxically Arthase's only real mess up was not realizing the frostmourne and Mal'Ganis were on the same team but even that was not something he could have really known. The deck was just so stacked against him that in the end his only winning move would have been not to play(run with Jaina to Kalimdor) and even that was hardly an option for a crown prince.

Now compare all of this to say Sylvanas who even under the most charitable of interpretations is a conflicted hypocrite who got molested by ancient entities into being evil and guess why her story does not resonate nearly as much as Arthase's.
 

RaggleFraggle

Ask me about VTM
Joined
Mar 23, 2022
Messages
1,479
They pulled it off once and have been chasing that high ever since. Arthas is a textbook example of what fall from grace should be and Blizz has been trying to recreate him in one way or another and has been consistently failing every single time because like most of the fanbase completely missed what made Arthas and his story so captivating.
I’m not saying you’re wrong, but I think this worked for a rare confluence of 2 reasons.

1) we were impressionable kids when we played, so we have nostalgia goggles and headcanon to paper the gaps and flaws. Major plot points, like Medivh being an obtuse asshole who refuses to tell the council about the legion invasion and the Guardian being a spooky good guy when the whole thing was a plant, are too theatrical, tropey and out of character to be believable.

2) I think Metzen stumbled into this by sheer dumb luck due to his own inability to stay consistent, leading to the compelling schizophrenic reading you describe when he probably intended one or the other or something else entirely. Nobody talks about the other campaigns because they’re of such inferior writing, so it looks like a lucky fluke.


Same as the Borg queen ruining the whole concept of the Borg, which for all i know might have inspired Kerrigan in the first place.
It probably did, but I don’t recall any interviews mentioning it when they’re usually very open about their influences. According to the wiki, they originally intended to kill her but then brought her back 1) as an emotional suckerpunch to the player rather than because it made any logical sense and 2) because they thought the zerg were too boring without human cast members.

If they thought the zerg were too boring, then why even try writing them? Either replace them with a race you find interesting, or hire a writer who finds their original concept interesting. Idiots.
 

ghardy

Educated
Joined
Jun 18, 2024
Messages
352
Why even preserve her personality and appearance? The zerg don’t value any of that. They value making better killing machines. Kerry’s entire character is completely at odds with the zerg’s concept, turning them into a incoherent mess. The only logical thing for the zerg to do is to dissemble her, discard everything human (face, personality, etc), take the psychic powers and mass clone new monsters with said powers, like they do with ever other species they consume.
This brings to mind SHODAN's making of a mindless army on Citadel Station in the original System Shock.

Of course in the sequel, the Many took that role.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
21,507
AFAIK the only moment when Kerrigan was truly herself was letting Jim Raynor bail out from Char.
Ah yes, contrived plot armor. It makes no sense for the zerg to let an enemy at their mercy leave and regroup. They have no concept of mercy because they’re omnivoracious space bugs. Metzen can’t write anything consistently.
The whole point was that she was not full Zerg, she had her own will and decided to let him go as she considered him to not be a threat.
The other zerg were there. They had orders. Why would they allow this when they were there to kill the terrans? It completely undercuts the threat the zerg pose.

A ballsy writer would’ve killed Raynor right there. It’s the only logical outcome out of walking into the lion’s den.

Why even preserve her personality and appearance? The zerg don’t value any of that. They value making better killing machines. Kerry’s entire character is completely at odds with the zerg’s concept, turning them into a incoherent mess. The only logical thing for the zerg to do is to dissemble her, discard everything human (face, personality, etc), take the psychic powers and mass clone new monsters with said powers, like they do with ever other species they consume.
She was the boss already so they listened.
And how do you know Zerg can just take Psionic potential and clone mindless drones with it? If they could they would have done it with captured protoss long ago. Kerrigan was remade over her own body, not created from scratch.

She is unique in similar way Overmind is unique.
 

RaggleFraggle

Ask me about VTM
Joined
Mar 23, 2022
Messages
1,479
This brings to mind SHODAN's making of a mindless army on Citadel Station in the original System Shock.

Of course in the sequel, the Many took that role.
Exactly. That’s how the zerg are established to work in literally every other instance across the games… except Kerry Sue. The writing is schizophrenic and inconsistent af, as to be expected from scatterbrained Metzen.

She was the boss already so they listened.
No. The Overmind and the PC cerebrate were the bosses. You got specific orders to kill the terrans. The idiot who wrote the script bends over backwards to let Raynor survive when by all rights the zerg should kill him. It’s bad writing written by a known hack.

And how do you know Zerg can just take Psionic potential and clone mindless drones with it? If they could they would have done it with captured protoss long ago. Kerrigan was remade over her own body, not created from scratch.
Because the manual literally says the zerg invaded human space to assimilate human psychic potential and use that against the protoss. Literally called humanity as a whole “the determinant” in the upcoming war. Not to find an individual, but to make whole armies because that’s their shtick. That’s how the zerg work in literally every other instance outside of Kerry Sue.

All zerg are innately psychic already. They just don’t have the right kind of powers to stand toe to toe against the protoss. They can’t steal it from the protoss, no explanation given. So they attacked humanity. This is all explained in the manual.

Of course Metzen forget all this when he wrote the scripts and introduced nonsense contradictions, but that’s par the course for Blizz. Trying to make sense of this garbage is impossible.

She is unique in similar way Overmind is unique
And that’s dumb af. The entire premise of the zerg is that they’re omnivoracious commie space bugs, not individuals. Any seeming instances of individuality, like cerebrates or queen or overlords (all of which canonically can speak in complete sentences), are a narrative convention to make their briefings more interesting than simple growls. Their premise fundamentally doesn’t work with human-like individuals with human motives.

Kerry Sue is a mary sue who breaks the established rules and premise of the zerg simply by existing, ruining them in a similar way to how the borg queen ruined the borg. Arguably she’s worse, because Kerry actually changed the zerg’s motivation from “consume all bio-matter” to “follow whatever dumb shit currently enters her head.”

It’s bad writing. I’ve said this multiple times already. If it still hasn’t sunk in, then that’s not my problem.

Ask yourself this: if you were writing the zerg instead of Metzen, and you had creative control over the scripts, then would you have given them human leaders? Why or why not?
 

Jaedar

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 5, 2009
Messages
10,201
Project: Eternity Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker
Exactly. That’s how the zerg are established to work in literally every other instance across the games… except Kerry Sue. The writing is schizophrenic and inconsistent af, as to be expected from scatterbrained Metzen.
Eh. There's also the torrasque, the devouring ones, super hydralisks, etc, etc. Seems the zerg are not quite able to clone everything, or why would they ever build normal versions of those units?
She is unique in similar way Overmind is unique.
Overmind isn't unique. There's the original, and iirc two copies in brood war.
 

RaggleFraggle

Ask me about VTM
Joined
Mar 23, 2022
Messages
1,479
Eh. There's also the torrasque, the devouring ones, super hydralisks, etc, etc. Seems the zerg are not quite able to clone everything, or why would they ever build normal versions of those units?
They do clone those. You just named them in plurals.

Overmind isn't unique. There's the original, and iirc two copies in brood war.
See? The zerg do clone everything
 

Jaedar

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 5, 2009
Messages
10,201
Project: Eternity Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker
They do clone those. You just named them in plurals.
Torrasque is singular. And sure, maybe they can clone them, but not at speed. Zerglings are implied to morph fully grown, maybe devouring ones actually need a growth cycle of years. So maybe overmind could make more kerrigans, but it would take ~20 years to grow them?

There is clearly some kind of limit to producing them as implied by the game mechanics anyway.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom