Game News Wasteland 2 Kickstarter Update #34: Gamescom Demo Video, First Dev Diary Released

[Jim the Dinosaur]

First of all, Fallout wasn't "non-scripted". It wasn't some kind of emergent gameplay GTA-type thing.

Meant it in a more relative sense of course. Something like the husband running up immediately after offing the wife isn't something you'd find in Fallout.

I don't know, why would you start the games out in a linear rat cave or a linear Temple of Trials?

Which is why the Fallout demo didn't start in the Rat Cave; it didn't convey the feel of the game in its entirety. The W2 demo does start in a corridor-type map: which is what I'm basing my assumptions on.

 

[Infinitron]

Gecko isn't a major city, it's a dying ghoul residential area; and a very small area of the game, with no main plot relevance. Yet you have various houses, a bathroom, farms, cattle, a (poisoned) well and even a bar where you can hear small talk, be called a smooth-skin and play Tragic:The Gathering. There are ghouls everywhere, the people that live here. You can enter their houses, loot their stuff, talk to them, and even kill them.

There is flavor here, personality. It's a cohesive area, that actual looks residential, not a bunch of quests at the end of paths, with nothing in between.

Gecko is a proper town. "Happy Vally" is a bunch of losers squatting in the corners of a valley living in fear of the raiders who control it.

I was explaining to the newfag why they were NPC encounters in the map and that it wasn't supposed to be an "empty wasteland". I was not saying it was a proper town. It obviously isn't.

Which is why the Fallout demo didn't start in the Rat Cave; it didn't convey the feel of the game in its entirety. The W2 demo does start in a corridor-type map: which is what I'm basing my assumptions on.

OK, that's one map. What do you think of Avellone's Ag Center map? I posted it above.

As for why they selected this map, maybe they felt something more linear and action packed would make a better demo. I don't know, ask Brother None.

 

[Infinitron]

Something like the husband running up immediately after offing the wife isn't something you'd find in Fallout.

BTW, this isn't entirely true. The assassination attempt on Killian?

 

[FeelTheRads]

I think the motive for the hex grid being changed has to do with how the cover system works.

Goddamn popamole ruining everything.

They seem p. tight-lipped about the change in combat grid.

They're in the cutting stuff down period, I think. In before "sorry guise, but cover systam AND turn based just doesn't work"

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Something like the husband running up immediately after offing the wife isn't something you'd find in Fallout.

BTW, this isn't entirely true. The assassination attempt on Killian?

Goddamnit

But c'mon mang, can you at least agree with me that it's extremely likely, whether you think that's a positive or not, that they're going for a more scripted (or, if you want, more "event-based"), less hub-based, less open game than FO1 and 2?

And not sure what the point is of commenting on design docs, but I guess it does look a bit more open than the map shown in the demo. No idea how it turns out in practice.

 

[Xeon]

Is an isometric game like Fallout 1 and 2 harder or easier to make than a 3D game like Wasteland 2? cost efficient way too, is it cheaper or more expensive?

 

[Rake]

Is an isometric game like Fallout 1 and 2 harder or easier to make than a 3D game like Wasteland 2? cost efficient way too, is it cheaper or more expensive?

Difficulty in design is about the same i imagine. 3D is cheaper than 2D if you go the "painted" IE way for 2D because artists cost money.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Is an isometric game like Fallout 1 and 2 harder or easier to make than a 3D game like Wasteland 2? cost efficient way too, is it cheaper or more expensive?

I'm guessing more expensive/hard because of all the work on sprites. Probably even more so if you're not going with the building block environments of Fallout but with the painted backgrounds of IE games.

I remember looking up the budgets a while ago and they seemed identical (FO1 had something like a 3 mil budget and that's what the Kickstarter campaign for W2 brought in), but I assume that doesn't translate to "as expensive", right?

 

[Infinitron]

Is an isometric game like Fallout 1 and 2 harder or easier to make than a 3D game like Wasteland 2? cost efficient way too, is it cheaper or more expensive?

Fallout 1 and 2 were tile-based, so they were probably cheaper. "Painted"/prerendered 2D games like the Infinity Engine games are probably not cheaper.

But c'mon mang, can you at least agree with me that it's extremely likely, whether you think that's a positive or not, that they're going for a more scripted (or, if you want, more "event-based"), less hub-based, less open game than FO1 and 2?

Uh, possibly? But the question is, how much more?

Because to me it seems like you're assuming that Wasteland 2 will essentially have no towns and no hubs, all based on a half hour demo of an excursion into enemy territory. That seems like a foolhardy assumption, to say the least.

 

[byFall]

When they made Fallout 1 and 2, the technology and tools available at the time made those two much more time consuming to produce, therefore expensive than Wasteland 2.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Because to me it seems like you're assuming that Wasteland 2 will essentially have no towns and no hubs, all based on a half hour demo of an excursion into enemy territory. That seems like a foolhardy assumption, to say the least.

Ah right. Never meant to give that impression. I'm sure they have hubs/towns, just that they're not nearly as much the focal point they were in the FO's (or Arcanum, or PS:T).

 

[Vault Dweller]

Something like the husband running up immediately after offing the wife isn't something you'd find in Fallout.

BTW, this isn't entirely true. The assassination attempt on Killian?

Not the same. You simply happened to be in the store when someone tried to kill him. It's a bit of a cliche maybe, but it works well, presenting the conflict in a 'dynamic' way. The husband, magically returning just when you put his wife out of her misery and attacking you on sight is bad design, whether you like it or not.

 

[Xeon]

Thank you!

 

[Infinitron]

Something like the husband running up immediately after offing the wife isn't something you'd find in Fallout.

BTW, this isn't entirely true. The assassination attempt on Killian?

Not the same. You simply happened to be in the store when someone tried to kill him. It's a bit of a cliche maybe, but it works well, presenting the conflict in a 'dynamic' way. The husband, magically returning just when you put his wife out of her misery and attacking you on sight is bad design, whether you like it or not.

We're talking about the degree of "scriptedness", not whether or not something is good quest design. Both of these things are examples of scripted events.

Also I hope you're not assuming the husband doesn't return if you don't kill his wife.

Ah right. Never meant to give that impression. I'm sure they have hubs/towns, just that they're not nearly as much the focal point they were in the FO's (or Arcanum, or PS:T).

"Not nearly as much"? We shall see. This sounds like the PE backers whining about how Sawyer only talks about combat and systems and not about story. "But...but...we don't want a dungeon crawler!!"

 

[MicoSelva]

The husband, magically returning just when you put his wife out of her misery and attacking you on sight is bad design, whether you like it or not.

It all depends if he also appears with the medicine if you decide not ta kill her. If he does, it is the same type of a coincidence as in 'Killian assassination attempt' Fallout example.

And I hope you're not assuming the husband doesn't return if you don't kill his wife.

Yes, I am assuming that he does not appear if you you don't kill her - and you then have to find the medicine yourself (with a time limit?). And yes, that would be bad design, as VD says.

 

[Scruffy]

"I'm Commander Danforth of RSM Enterprises"...


WTF. Mass Effect allusion!?

*googles*


RSM Enterprises - erectile dysfunction, impotence, sidenafil, tadalafil ...

hmm...

 

[byFall]

Something like the husband running up immediately after offing the wife isn't something you'd find in Fallout.

BTW, this isn't entirely true. The assassination attempt on Killian?

Not the same. You simply happened to be in the store when someone tried to kill him. It's a bit of a cliche maybe, but it works well, presenting the conflict in a 'dynamic' way. The husband, magically returning just when you put his wife out of her misery and attacking you on sight is bad design, whether you like it or not.

We're talking about the degree of "scriptedness", not whether or not something is good quest design. Both of these things are examples of scripted events.

And I hope you're not assuming the husband doesn't return if you don't kill his wife.

Ah right. Never meant to give that impression. I'm sure they have hubs/towns, just that they're not nearly as much the focal point they were in the FO's (or Arcanum, or PS:T).

"Not nearly as much"? We shall see. This sounds like the PE backers whining about how Sawyer only talks about combat and systems and not about story. "But...but...we don't want a dungeon crawler!!"

Whining backers making clear what they would like to avoid if possible, so the Devs have a point of reference and feedback.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Ah right. Never meant to give that impression. I'm sure they have hubs/towns, just that they're not nearly as much the focal point they were in the FO's (or Arcanum, or PS:T).

"Not nearly as much"? We shall see. This sounds like the PE backers whining about how Sawyer only talks about combat and systems and not about story. "But...but...we don't want a dungeon crawler!!"

There's a difference between devs talking about a game in pre-production and them showing off a game in its polishing phase. If the PE demos and screenshots end up showing off only combat, and people who expected BG3 and not IWD3 get wary, is that still just irrational whining?

 

[MicoSelva]

If the PE demos and screenshots end up showing off only combat

That will not happen.
EDIT: Ok, it actually might, but I'm still hoping for something more than IWD formula.

 

[Scruffy]

Wait, did he say that cover will play a very important role in the game? Isn’t that the original definition of popamole?

edit
what i find REALLY annoying is the weapon icon on the lower left corner FLICKERING

 

[FeelTheRads]

Well, they're also calling maps/locations levels so... myeah.

 

[Lancehead]

I don't really understand what you're trying to say. It's a sparsely inhabited valley, but still not an irradiated desert (I don't think Arizona in Wasteland actually got nuked like California was in Fallout - it was always a desert). We also don't know if those houses are actually abandoned.

Compare this, a big & important area of W2, with a tiny, optional area of Fallout 2:

Gecko isn't a major city, it's a dying ghoul residential area; and a very small area of the game, with no main plot relevance. Yet you have various houses, a bathroom, farms, cattle, a (poisoned) well and even a bar where you can hear small talk, be called a smooth-skin and play Tragic:The Gathering. There are ghouls everywhere, the people that live here. You can enter their houses, loot their stuff, talk to them, barter with each one and even kill them.

There is flavor here, personality. It's a cohesive area, that actual looks residential, not a bunch of quests at the end of paths, with nothing in between. Combat apart, even being way smaller and with less quests, there is more to do & see here than on what they showed on the demo.

More importantly, such area design has implications to quest design. Consider the dying woman quest in the above map. Since the husband returns right after you kill the wife, it's fair to assume he's in the neighbourhood, and in a map like the above, the player might run into him first. Then his role in the quest has to be more natural than the seemingly-contrived role shown in the video.

 

[Infinitron]

Ah right. Never meant to give that impression. I'm sure they have hubs/towns, just that they're not nearly as much the focal point they were in the FO's (or Arcanum, or PS:T).

"Not nearly as much"? We shall see. This sounds like the PE backers whining about how Sawyer only talks about combat and systems and not about story. "But...but...we don't want a dungeon crawler!!"

There's a difference between devs talking about a game in pre-production and them showing off a game in its polishing phase. If the PE demos and screenshots end up showing off only combat, and people who expected BG3 and not IWD3 get wary, is that still just irrational whining?

Depends if the demo is in a dungeon or in Defiance Bay.

Note that it's much easier to create an enclosed, "in and out" demo of a dungeon area. Even in this demo, Chris had to skip over talking to that Red guy, because what he had to say wouldn't make sense to players who didn't have the context of the full game.

 

[felipepepe]

More importantly, such area design has implications to quest design. Consider the dying woman quest in the above map. Since the husband returns right after you kill the wife, it's fair to assume he's in the neighbourhood, and in a map like the above, the player might run into him first. Then his role in the quest has to be more natural than the seemingly-contrived role shown in the video.

Makes you wonder... he appeared really fast, so if you split your party on the path to the woman, will they see him coming all the way from the entry area, or will he just appear from thin air? Chances are, the later.

 

[Scruffy]

Tragic:The Gathering.

Garnering mang