Wasteland Wasteland 2 Thread - Director's Cut

[cvv]

You're reloading skill checks because you're a weak minded faggot. The game is not responsible for your sexual orientation.

No, incentives matter. And marrying percentage skill checking with quicksaves makes for a terrible incentive combo.

 

[DragoFireheart]

If you dislike the reloading approach, why are you defending the system that allows it?

Because ultimately it's a game.

Games are meant to be fun. Luck-based skill checks that can end in critical failure and permanently lock you out are not fun for some people.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Just how fucking retarded are you? I reload after a lost battle because that's the only way to even keep playing. Otherwise full party wipe ends the game.

Failed skill check does not end the game, in fact in WL2 failed skill checks literally doesn't mean shit because chest loot is useless and almsot every quest has a fuck zilllion of different solutions. The only reason you're reloading skill checks is because it surpresses the burning urge you have to suck cocks.

 

[Trashos]

Games are meant to be fun. Luck-based skill checks that can end in critical failure and permanently lock you out are not fun for some people.

It does not have to lock you out. New Vegas had deterministic skill checks, but it didn't lock you out forever. It just made your planning more challenging & interesting, as decent games are supposed to do.

I reload after a lost battle because that's the only way to even keep playing. Otherwise full party wipe ends the game.

I can accept that to an extend, if you tell me that you won't reload the game just because you lost one of your favorite rangers in battle.

Still, it does not work me though. OK, assume that we do not reload after failed skill checks. Why have a system that allows/incentivizes it then? Why not use deterministic skill checks instead?

 

[undecaf]

If you dislike the reloading approach, why are you defending the system that allows it?

I have no problem with other peoples approaches. I just like the RNG system infinitely better than a blunt deterministic system. I don't savescum and I find the experience to be much better that way, by accepting the results even when it leads to missing out some content.

 

[Trashos]

I am still unsure why you are defending a system that has no positive consequence on your way of playing (does it?). You can accept the deterministic results just as well as you accept the RNG results.

 

[undecaf]

And now I'm a bit unsure if you really have a grasp (beyond "I can/can't savescum") of the difference between deterministic and random (but weighted) results and how those affect the dynamic of the gameplay. The positive consequence is precisely the relative uncertainty of the results and how that affects the following gameplay.

 

[Crichton]

There are games in which having a random chance of being able to open a door or container makes sense. In a heist game (Invisible Inc. or somesuch) having a random chance of being able to open something could be important because you could just that turn for something else and the longer it takes, the greater the chance of more guards arriving. Similarly having different ways of opening things could be important in a game that relies on stealth because more sure methods could be louder. I think the uncertainty in a situation like that makes perfect sense; time is a factor whether you're in combat or not.

That's not the case here. In Wasteland 2, having six skills that are simply ways of opening different types of trash cans (and then having a random chance of that failing) is just the definition of shit design. No one is coming, all the hostiles are dead, it doesn't matter how long you spend prying the lid open to get those broken toys and used condoms. The cooldown between attempts is bullshit, the chance that you'll randomly jam the trash can shut and miss out on some RANDOM_LOOT_TABLE_8 is bullshit. Not just using a seed generated at the start of the game to decide on the contents of these waste receptacles is bullshit. Basically the whole game is just bullshit.

 

[Trashos]

And now I'm a bit unsure if you really have a grasp (beyond "I can/can't savescum") of the difference between deterministic and random (but weighted) results and how those affect the dynamic of the gameplay. The positive consequence is precisely the relative uncertainty of the results and how that affects the following gameplay.

All right, I see your point. You prefer uncertainty, I prefer systems that will force me to seriously question and adjust my long-term planning. I can respect such a difference in viewpoint, although I still cannot support such a design.

 

[Trashos]

Also, note that Civ4 had an option to save the last dice roll and reuse it upon reload. This way, its systems were RNG based, but savescumming wasn't incentivized.

I wish W2 had an option like that. Maybe an idea for W3, if they plan to keep the RNG for skill checks.

 

[Castozor]

They should probably have made the skill checks differently by punishing you for failing them but giving you another chance. Say losing x amount of HP/equipment on failure but you get another chance. That way you still reward skill investment and discourage save scumming for all but the most compulsive save scummers. The way it is know makes more sense for a game with deterministic skill checks.

 

[Infinitron]

The randomized skill checks are bad design of course, but they're ultimately not that annoying because of the huge leap in success chance you get when you're sufficiently skilled for a particular challenge - from ~25% to ~60%.

The really bad thing is the randomized loot, which will have you reloading multiple times every time you encounter a weapon crate or a safe once you figure out what the game is doing.

I think it would be really nice if games like these, if they insist on using random loot tables, would bias the RNG in favor of items you don't already have. I want to collect the full set of weapons, trinkets, etc, don't give me shit I already have.

 

[Trashos]

...

Do we know who has designed what location in W2? Do we have a list somewhere or sth. I enjoyed Darwin Village very much, whoever designed Canyon of Titan is a genius, and Damonta was very atmospheric. On the other hand, The Prison was juvenile.

 

[Infinitron]

...

Do we know who has designed what location in W2? Do we have a list somewhere or sth. I enjoyed Darwin Village very much, whoever designed Canyon of Titan is a genius, and Damonta was very atmospheric. On the other hand, The Prison was juvenile.

We know some: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...ead-directors-cut.94233/page-183#post-4424470

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

...

Do we know who has designed what location in W2? Do we have a list somewhere or sth. I enjoyed Darwin Village very much, whoever designed Canyon of Titan is a genius, and Damonta was very atmospheric. On the other hand, The Prison was juvenile.

Prison may be bland in comparison but it's exactly what makes all those other locations work. Damonta was awesome because it was offbeat and weird and unexpected after the previous locations set the tone to be a "generic post-apo in the desert".

Imagine if they'd put Damonta at the start. People would be losing their minds and demanding refunds. Instead its a fan favorite level.

 

[circ]

savescumming aside, which I don't really care about anyway, I was more disappointed by the fact that there are several skills that are just flavor skills. Example - lockpick/safecracking/electronics. Just lazy design leading to dumb skillpoint bloat.

 

[Trashos]

Prison may be bland in comparison but it's exactly what makes all those other locations work. Damonta was awesome because it was offbeat and weird and unexpected after the previous locations set the tone to be a "generic post-apo in the desert".

Imagine if they'd put Damonta at the start. People would be losing their minds and demanding refunds. Instead its a fan favorite level.

I agree on Damonta. Still, very nicely done. Good music too.

I don't find the Prison bland, I 'd say it's full of teenage angst. I have no idea why cartoonishly evil opponents are attractive to designers or to any adult really. They only fit in games that are just for the lulz, and W2 is not that.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

...

Do we know who has designed what location in W2? Do we have a list somewhere or sth. I enjoyed Darwin Village very much, whoever designed Canyon of Titan is a genius, and Damonta was very atmospheric. On the other hand, The Prison was juvenile.

You will have even more fun in California.

 

[Roguey]

I have no idea why cartoonishly evil opponents are attractive to designers or to any adult really. They only fit in games that are just for the lulz, and W2 is not that.

I'm pretty confident an actual post-apocalypse would lead to over-the-top villainy.

 

[Jimmious]

As if currently we don't have over the top people in power.. Who is a villain and who is not is a different matter

 

[Trashos]

I am not saying that over-the-top villainy is necessarily unrealistic. I am saying that it is not very interesting or thought provoking when presented as such.

Dean Domino is an extremely evil character in Dead Money, but he is also extremely interesting. The Red Skorpions are not interesting.

You will have even more fun in California.

Interesting. I kinda expected the gameplay to go down the drain from some point and on, as many such games tend to do. I will be very impressed if California is anywhere near as good as Arizona, let alone better.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

The two maps offer a very diffierent experience. California is more open, more sandboxy and is preferred by the nu-generation of Skyrim fans. Arizona is the choice of prestigious oldschool RPG connoisseurs.

 

[Lhynn]

IHaveHugeNick what the fuck is wrong with your face?!

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

IHaveHugeNick what the fuck is wrong with your face?!

I think grumpy old man fits my personality better.

 

[Lhynn]

I think grumpy old man fits my personality better.

<-- Thats a man? Thought it was an ugly lesbian.