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Game News "What can change the nature of a game?" - Torment: Tides of Numenera Kickstarter is LIVE

sea

inXile Entertainment
Developer
Joined
May 3, 2011
Messages
5,698
Having full voice acting completely locks your dialog (and that is a BAD thing). With no VO (or limited) you can then keep re-writing some parts they you may want to improve upon. What PE is doing is perfect. And hopefully so will Torment (even MORE so).
Not to mention Torment has the honor of having possibly the most amount of writing in any single videogame ever made (except maybe modern MMORPGs). Do you really want the quantity, reactivity, quality, etc. of the dialogue to be compromised? Voice actors get paid by the line in many cases.
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
That's why I said limited. Maybe some key sentences àla "I feel stronger", "Updating my journal", etc.

If the voice bit at the end of the video is a hint, then I suppose it will have some limited voice acting like PST.

Fuck. Can't refer to PST as Torment anymore now.
 

jewboy

Arbiter
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
657
Location
Oumuamua
About this kickstarter. No interestng discussion happening though. It's good publicity at least.
 
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
6,207
Location
The island of misfit mascots
You know what I want to see from a Torment successor?

The most underused element in crpg settings: a game based on the tragedy archetype, rather than the epic hero archetype. I can think of precisely two games that were made using the tragedy (as opposed to the horror, or the 'ironic victory') archetype: Torment and Mask of the Betrayer. And both games were amazingly refreshing for it. It helped that in each case, the whole game embraced the tragedy archetype, from every NPC, every NPC relationship, most of the quests, the world in general...sure there bright parts and opportunities to be a hero along the way, but you knew pretty quickly that if you went into the hive and started acting the hero, taking the 'things are going to change while I'm around here', the enormity of it all (the sheer impossibility of setting anything but your personal failings to rights in the face of the godsmens' pollution-based disease, the sensates selfishness, the dusties disdain for the living, the utterly absent guardian of the Lady of Pain...) was going to make you eat your words.

I 'might' include Grim Fandango in that list as well. Another great game.

The 'epic hero' storyline has been milked to death. In virtually every setting. There's simply nothing to be done with it right now - let it rest for a decade. Let it wait. In 10 years time a new group of writer/developers will come around who view it like we view spaghetti westerns and late 70s noir/cyberpunk - as something to be played with and teased out in interesting ways that would never have occurred to the people making it originally. Then we might actually get something interesting in that area once again.

That's not a problem if the game isn't going to be story-focussed. If it isn't story-focussed, then go epic-adventure-hero-saves-the-world all you like. But if they want to make a story-based adventure that genre is dead. Recognising that the genre is dead (and was already dead 10 years ago), and that tragedy has at least 10 years of solid game stories in it, without barely touching the surface of the genre (it WAS the dominant story-form for centuries during the golden age of English literature =- Hamlet, Dr Faustus, MacBeth, Lear, The Revenger's Tragedy, Great Expectations, Moby Dick, The Great Gatsby...need I go on?). And it's perfectly combinable with having a hero. Hamlet was a hero...by the last few scenes of the play anyway. The McDuff/English Prince/Scottish heir alliance were heroes in MacBeth (which makes it all the better when MacBeth meets the young idealistic English Prince on the battlefield and almost takes pity on him for being 'out of your depth...boy' before cutting him down...and even more badass when McDuff (basically the mirror image of MacBeth) finds him and finally takes him down). In many ways McDuff is an ideal hero for a tragedy crpg - he starts off opposing MacBeth because 'it's the right thing to do' - he has suspicions that MacBeth murdered the previous king and is already wary that MacBeth is going to become a tyrant. But once MacBeth slaughters McDuff's family, including his 8 year old kid and literally kills his newbown infant in his cot, McDuff becomes almost EXACTLY like MacBeth - a creature of pure rage willing to sacrifice everything, good or evil, in order to get his revenge. At the end you have a similar situation to the precarious situation that started it all - a young (more battle-hardened than his father, admittedly, but still weak compared to McDuff) Scottish prince-turned-king, relying on a morally ambiguous military leader for support (McDuff), and one character who might have been able to negotiate a peace in the event of another bloodbath is dead (the young English prince). A bit more interesting than 'you're the dragonborn, go save the world', huh?

Faustus was both hero and villain (like TNO). Same with Lear and the leads in the Revenger's Tragedy. Moby Dick is full of tragic heroes. There's no rule saying you can't have an rpg-style hero - if done in the ambiguous style of TNO and MotB - in a tragedy.
 

DarkUnderlord

Professional Throne Sitter
Staff Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2002
Messages
28,550
I dunno, this makes me rethink the entire nature of kickstarter. Is it life-support for a company without a publisher? I always figured it was more a one shot thing to get a company launched into independence?
Launching into independence would require additional sales after the launch of the game - and at the moment, that's an untested hypothesis. Have all the people who want to buy this game already put their money forward or will there be additional sales after release, if so how many, at what price and how will those sales impact on future KickStarters? (EG: The Torment discount price for backers that has already sold out is for a digital download at $20. When the game comes out in a Steam sale at $4.95, will that deter those early backers in the future - or will that early backing price get lowered in future?)

At the moment though, it's basically a way to gauge support for a product without doing too much work on it¹ and I suspect KickStarter amounts will increase over time, if there are successful sales. EG: Wasteland 3 might ask for $4M if Wasteland 2 does well and the sequel is planned to be "bigger and better" (otherwise, asking for $1M for a $25M budget game seems kind of measly). And there's a question around whether KickStarter is "just for indies" or small studios. Will big studios making money from their games and launching a KickStarter attract more backers or deter them?

It'll be interesting to see how viable the model is long-term - though a lot of that will depend on how the games turn out.


¹Although technically, inXile have paid (I assume) a bunch of graphic designers, artists and writers to put together a whole lot of info for the Torment pitch, which means money came from somewhere else to fund that. If it came from the Wasteland 2 budget and is to be re-paid with the Torment KickStarter, it adds risk if a KickStarter is unsuccessful (robbing Peter to pay Paul, not to mention it potentially jeopardises both projects).
 

Brother None

inXile Entertainment
Developer
Joined
Jul 11, 2004
Messages
5,673
¹Although technically, inXile have paid (I assume) a bunch of graphic designers, artists and writers to put together a whole lot of info for the Torment pitch, which means money came from somewhere else to fund that. If it came from the Wasteland 2 budget and is to be re-paid with the Torment KickStarter, it adds risk if a KickStarter is unsuccessful (robbing Peter to pay Paul, not to mention it potentially jeopardises both projects).

Nah, the funds to pay the Torment team (including me) came from inXile's running income, Bard's Tale sales etc. Not enough to fund the entire pre-production phase, but enough to keep a core team of artists, writers and producers working both on the game and the Kickstarter for quite a few months. So yeah, running a Kickstarter properly is not cheap, even with some of us taking less wages until the funding is complete, but so far it's paying off. We have not and will not mess with Wasteland 2's budget in any way (except to add to it from non-Kickstarter incomes).

Edit: oh goddammit we're at 1.4M fffffff we're about to pass yet another stretch goal without having even announced it
 

Rake

Arcane
Joined
Oct 11, 2012
Messages
2,969
¹Although technically, inXile have paid (I assume) a bunch of graphic designers, artists and writers to put together a whole lot of info for the Torment pitch, which means money came from somewhere else to fund that. If it came from the Wasteland 2 budget and is to be re-paid with the Torment KickStarter, it adds risk if a KickStarter is unsuccessful (robbing Peter to pay Paul, not to mention it potentially jeopardises both projects).

Nah, the funds to pay the Torment team (including me) came from inXile's running income, Bard's Tale sales etc. Not enough to fund the entire pre-production phase, but enough to keep a core team of artists, writers and producers working both on the game and the Kickstarter for quite a few months. So yeah, running a Kickstarter properly is not cheap, even with some of us taking less wages until the funding is complete, but so far it's paying off. We have not and will not mess with Wasteland 2's budget in any way (except to add to it from non-Kickstarter incomes).

Edit: oh goddammit we're at 1.4M fffffff we're about to pass yet another stretch goal without having even announced it
Put those up already!
 

jewboy

Arbiter
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
657
Location
Oumuamua
I agree that tragedies are underused in games. Saving the world stories were really never a good idea. I think intensely personal stories that end badly are definitely the way to go.
 

Jaesun

Fabulous Ex-Moderator
Patron
Joined
May 14, 2004
Messages
37,434
Location
Seattle, WA USA
MCA Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech
PST was never about saving the world though. They were one thing and one thing only: A personal Journey of understanding.

Of which Torment seems to be doing. <3
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
Edit: oh goddammit we're at 1.4M fffffff we're about to pass yet another stretch goal without having even announced it

Jeez... keep it quiet and put them higher. Nobody would know.
 

Rake

Arcane
Joined
Oct 11, 2012
Messages
2,969
:lol: By the time they are sober enough to put them out they will be at 1,5M$. Noone would believe them that no strech goals were been hit.
 
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
6,207
Location
The island of misfit mascots
I agree that tragedies are underused in games. Saving the world stories were really never a good idea. I think intensely personal stories that end badly are definitely the way to go.

It doesn't even have to 'end badly' as such - 'tragedy' in its classic sense didn't always do that, and I think the association of tragedy with it's non-literary meaning of 'a bad ending' is part of the reason it fell out of favour after 1930. Ultimately, it means that the story is one where the hero doesn't get to save EVERYTHING and put everything right, but people get their come-uppance in a personal or psychological way. Great Expectations doesn't end with Pip being ruined or psychologically crushed - it ends with his reconcilliation with the love of his life, combined with the realisation that they're both too damaged by now to be anything but close friends. It's a sweet ending, in some ways more romantic than if they had actually got together.

Heart of Darkness ends with Marlowe 'almost' taking the step over the edge into madness, but stepping back at the last minute and realising that there IS a difference between him and Kurtz - that while Kurtz was pure idealism and hence had nothing left to anchor him when his idealism crumbled, Marlowe (once stripped of idealism) is still grounded in the everyday work of running a ship and it saves him. It's a tragedy because of what it says about the human condition, but the 'good guy' still wins.

Hamlet gets his justice. McDuff - as morally ambiguous and dangerous as he is by the end - gets his revenge. The protagonists in the Revenger's Tragedy are happy to wear their death sentences because they killed the assholes who murdered their family and raped their women - they see it as a victory, and they never expected NOT to hang.

Hell, some people list Camus' 'The Plague' as a tragedy, and that's one of the most uplifting books ever written. Unlike Sartre (who I despise both as an academic philosopher - he took all his premises from Nietzche but still wanted to keep HIS morality while shitting on everyone elses - and as an author), Camus saw something beautiful in the fact that we can't justify why we help others, but we do it anyway. The Plague is described as a tragedy because you have a set of characters who set about trying to combat a seemingly unstoppable plague in a town that's been locked off due to quarantine. Some do it for charity (the priest, the doctor), some for selfish reasons (the lover), some for duty. It's a tragedy because of what it says about the human condition - as the plague goes on, they all slowly realise that all of their motivations for helping others and putting themselves in danger are ultimately meaningless. But whereas Sartre shits on that sort of thing and would call them all fools, Camus finds something beautiful in that - the characters KNOW that they can't justify why they are endangering themselves to help others, but they also know that they can't stop - something in them, something that they can't understand or justify, leads them to make that sacrifice. Okay, it's not a crpg plot, but it's a good example of how 'tragedy' in the literary sense is to do with the human condition - you can have an absolutely uplifting book like The Plague, and it can still be a tragedy because of what it says about people (even if what it says is ultimately positive).

In the literary sense, tragedy doesn't have to mean 'everything ends up fucked'.
 

winterraptor

Cipher
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
408
Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera
Edit: oh goddammit we're at 1.4M fffffff we're about to pass yet another stretch goal without having even announced it

A good problem to have.

Also, @ thread . . . full voice acting . . . yeah, I can so see that in a Torment successor. Let's get James Earl Fucking Jones to narrate the piles of non-NPC dialog.

Maybe if it was Avellone. :smug:
 

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