Divinity What makes a "Baldur's Gate" to you?

[Roguey]

Yeah, because your PoE/Sawyer predictions panned out so well...

My predictions about the Codex-at-large's reaction to something tend to be accurate.

Facts: D:OS and D:OS 2 are both new classics according to all the polls. Codex as a whole also likes D&D and D&D-derivative systems. It's win-win.

 

[Lilura]

Codex as a whole also likes D&D and D&D-derivative systems. It's win-win.

From what I've noticed, 'Dex prefers AD&D 2nd followed by D&D 3.0/.5/.75 followed by 5th followed by 4th. At least, the posters whom I considered to be monocled do.

5th is streamlined shit, imo.

 

[Jimmious]

Codex as a whole also likes D&D and D&D-derivative systems. It's win-win.

From what I've noticed, 'Dex prefers AD&D 2nd followed by D&D 3.0/.5/.75 followed by 5th followed by 4th. At least, the posters whom I considered to be monocled do.

5th is streamlined shit, imo.

Be that as it may, you don't really expect anyone to actually release a new game in 2nd edition nowadays? I mean apart from the fact that WotC won't allow that

 

[Desolate Dancer]

From what I've noticed, 'Dex prefers AD&D 2nd followed by D&D 3.0/.5/.75 followed by 5th followed by 4th. At least, the posters whom I considered to be monocled do.

5th is streamlined shit, imo.

2e is clearly the best, hands down... the last edition that had soul, everything afterwards are just soulless cash grabs...

 

[NJClaw]

When someone says that 2e is "clearly" the best, what is this based on? I love every IE game, but 2e was a massive pile of shit with an unbelievable amount of flaws. More than half the rules were useless, telling you how many feet of rope you can climb in a second while singing. Who the fuck cares. Really, apart from nostalgia, what are the advantages of 2e?

 

[Lilura]

Be that as it may, you don't really expect anyone to actually release a new game in 2nd edition nowadays? I mean apart from the fact that WotC won't allow that

Siege of Dragonspear.

Spoiler

2e is clearly the best, hands down... the last edition that had soul, everything afterwards are just soulless cash grabs...

Agreed. Though 3.0/3.5 I also like because BUILDS. In AD&D 2nd Edition, and dual-classing aside, all we are doing is leveling a template.

5th Edition is queerer than even 4th.

 

[Desolate Dancer]

When someone says that 2e is "clearly" the best, what is this based on? I love every IE game, but 2e was a massive pile of shit with an unbelievable amount of flaws. More than half the rules were useless, telling you how many feet of rope you can climb in a second while singing. Who the fuck cares. Really, apart from nostalgia, what are the advantages of 2e?

Exactly, you are right in your observation... and this is what I call soul. Back then, there were quirky rules, things that had been there because it was derived from irl myths, or because it was like that in FR novels etc... then came the Balance, the Calamity, the Great Streamlining... rules that gave flavour but served no purpose must have been "purged", since they only served "as a barrier to mainstream popularity"... instead of focusing on having a party, with specialists/classes in it, it must have been "every class can do anything, multi to anything" whatever they want... no more special rules for dualing, special limitations based on race, special attribute pre-requisits nah... they were deemed "problematic"... and ofc the culmination and pinnacle of this new "approach" was 4e. Needless to say, the entire system drifted from the soulful nerd-friendly base to the soulless mainstream appeal, and oh boy did they went in full throttle...

So while I totally agree with your observation, those are exactly the things why many of us fell in love with 2e (or even D&D before that)... modern age, gamification, etc... killed the soul of D&D for good, how many times must we be disappointed to accept this? Fuggly 3D was the start of the Great Decline, and apparently it can only get worse (looking at you Larpian)... this whole tragedy is similar to how mankind (Americans) got to the Moon some 60 effing years ago, but it is no longer "feasible" because... reasons... the sweet spot of making fantastic RPGs was the era of IE... it will never come back, since it is not feasible (possible only on paper)... we must accept it, that's it, all hope is lot.

 

[Haplo]

Desolate Dancer

If I understand your post correctly, "Balance" and "Streamlining" brought 3rd ed., 3.5, Pathfinder upon us?

 

[JarlFrank]

But one thing I'm not sure has been mentioned; Art Direction inspired by Keith Parkinson and Larry Elmore.

Goddamn I miss the oldschool fantasy art from the 80s and 90s.
You forgot to mention Clyde Caldwell, too.

Are there even any younger artists who follow those kinds of styles? All I see are too clean digital artworks that don't evoke the same atmosphere.

 

[Desolate Dancer]

As I understand your post, "Balance" and "Streamlining" brought 3rd ed., 3.5, Pathfinder?

Chiefly, yes. But not solely. Balancing means, among many things, that they used equal XP progression, they gave Skills to everyone, they made features accessible to every class, etc... all in the name of balancing them, even if they didn't pronounce it out loud. This can also be understood as drifting away from the classic party composition and basics (you shoot, I hit, he casts, she picks locks, etc...) into a "everyone should be able to face up against the exact same challenges" mentality. And to me, this was the literal end of ROLE-playing. After all, what does role mean, if everyone can excel at the very same challenges? You no longer has a Thief whom you have to drag around solely for his skills, nope, he is automatically a badass ninja-tier slayer who can dish out damage faster than a railgun (in mmospeak, its smthg called DPS?).

Agreed. Though 3.0/3.5 I also like because BUILDS. In AD&D 2nd Edition, and dual-classing aside, all we are doing is leveling a template.

I'm a purist so I could never get into anything other than 2e, but for all I know, builds could be great.

 

[Dramart]

Jaheira, Imoen, Viconia, Minsc, Boo, Anomen, Nalia, Vin Diesel.

 

[JarlFrank]

Only people that don’t know the forgotten realms think the start of BG was “simple and humble”

Few people know about the TRUE realmslore:

* Elminster is an ancient super-wizard who's all shriveled and bearded and yet gets to score with the hottest chicks in the world, who are all so attached to him and how awesome he is that when he's believed dead they can do NOTHING but weep and be lost in sorrow.

*Elminster had to spend years of his life transformed into a hot girl and having a lesbian relationship as part of his training.

* Spellfire was a novel by Greenwood about a young woman given an awesome magical power. The result of her using this power was blasting her own clothes off, constantly leaving her naked and sweaty.

* The goddess Eilistrae is super-good and requires her priestesses to dance naked while worshipping her.

* In any supplement written by greenwood, there is exact information on where in each featured town, village or city one can find the festhall. For reference, festhalls are brothels. Many said books includes [Volo] rating the festhalls in-character, implying he's been trying out the wares all over.

* The Simbul is the most powerful female spellcaster in the realms. She's a white-haired knockout who hates clothes and frequently tears out of them in fits of passion. She also likes transforming into animals and run wild, naked.

Ed Greenwood's shit in D&D was always hysterical and full of his fetishes, mostly bondage, transformation (gender changing), and other such stuff.

There were tonnes of Gender Change items in the magic items books apart from the illustrious Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity, like the Dryad Cordial which makes a male go to sleep and gradually turns them into a totally hot chick.

It's mentioned that matriarchs for fun rape the shit out of the other female drow under them, a lot of times with strap-ons or other tools (yes it's canon that the drow discovered how to invent rubber, they also invented gunpowder and a few other things but that's another story), and there's one text that mentions a matriarch who would use magic to grow an extra appendage to make it so when she abused her subjects she still got some pleasure out of intruding upon their most private of locations.

 

[octavius]

Good for Greenwood that he could live out all his fantasies through his books. But it sounds a bit pathetic too, inserting yourself into the game world as some more than perfect version of yourself that gets all the chicks.

 

[Ninjerk]

Spoiler

Sneaking into all the houses in Beregost and robbing them blind. Oh fuck, spiders!

Serious answer: Baldur's Gate leaves the door open to the rogues in your party causing trouble because they're being mischievous and greedy. WoW actually accomplished this, as well (see: Payo Classic beta highlights), and even managed to pit party members against in each other in a sort of metagame. Having a little something for several player types to roleplay without it all being about whether you deal your damage from the front, back, or magically is what I think BG successfully ported into CRPG format from the tabletop sessions.

 

[Razzoriel]

Jaheira, Imoen, Viconia, Minsc, Boo, Anomen, Nalia, Vin Diesel.

Kivan is the most extremely underrated companion. No one else can shoot at things and reach for his pocket halberd in melee.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Better question: is BG 3 more BG than Fallout 3 is Fallout? Be sure to explain your reasoning in detail.

 

[Poseidon00]

- A story that revolves around discovering who you are and coming to terms with it

- companions that have a lot of history and interaction with each other

- a feeling of low magic that steadily turns to high magic as you progress

- a certain degree of nonlinear questing

 

[Tom Baker's Arse]

As I understand your post, "Balance" and "Streamlining" brought 3rd ed., 3.5, Pathfinder?

Chiefly, yes. But not solely. Balancing means, among many things, that they used equal XP progression, they gave Skills to everyone, they made features accessible to every class, etc... all in the name of balancing them, even if they didn't pronounce it out loud. This can also be understood as drifting away from the classic party composition and basics (you shoot, I hit, he casts, she picks locks, etc...) into a "everyone should be able to face up against the exact same challenges" mentality. And to me, this was the literal end of ROLE-playing. After all, what does role mean, if everyone can excel at the very same challenges? You no longer has a Thief whom you have to drag around solely for his skills, nope, he is automatically a badass ninja-tier slayer who can dish out damage faster than a railgun (in mmospeak, its smthg called DPS?).

Agreed. Though 3.0/3.5 I also like because BUILDS. In AD&D 2nd Edition, and dual-classing aside, all we are doing is leveling a template.

I'm a purist so I could never get into anything other than 2e, but for all I know, builds could be great.

I totally know what you mean when you say "soul" and 2E. I still have a group that meets once a week and still plays 1E Greyhawk, and has been since 1982. 3E for me was a huge change, and not for the better, truth be told. I too thought it a bit of a money grab as I thought back then "what the fuck was wrong with 2E ?". Ah well, everything moves on as they say. Life, time. Something I have learned during my timespan on this planet, thus far.

 

[NJClaw]

AD&D ruleset is a child of its own time and, as such, it is plagued by dysfunctional rules and flawed design decisions. Obviously each edition has its own flaws and everyone has the right to prefer one over another, but things go forward and, if your job is to design roleplaying games, you try to do that at the best of your abilities. In 2020 we are playing 5e instead of 2e for the same reasons that we are driving teslas instead of the first Benz ever made.

 

[Razzoriel]

AD&D ruleset is a child of its own time and, as such, it is plagued by dysfunctional rules and flawed design decisions. Obviously each edition has its own flaws and everyone has the right to prefer one over another, but things go forward and, if your job is to design roleplaying games, you try to do that at the best of your abilities. In 2020 we are playing 5e instead of 2e for the same reasons that we are driving teslas instead of the first Benz ever made.

Difference is. If i drive a Cadillac across town it gives me tens of thousands of cool guy points compared to a Tesla.

 

[NJClaw]

AD&D ruleset is a child of its own time and, as such, it is plagued by dysfunctional rules and flawed design decisions. Obviously each edition has its own flaws and everyone has the right to prefer one over another, but things go forward and, if your job is to design roleplaying games, you try to do that at the best of your abilities. In 2020 we are playing 5e instead of 2e for the same reasons that we are driving teslas instead of the first Benz ever made.

Difference is. If i drive a Cadillac across town it gives me tens of thousands of cool guy points compared to a Tesla.

AD&D is not a cadillac. AD&D is something like a fake car made out of cardboard boxes that moves because it's full of monkeys that run in random directions and one of the monkeys has a ring with a jewel that's worth millions of dollars

 

[gunman]

You forgot the option: Abuse the engine in many unexpected ways, aka "cheese"

A BG title without cheese is not BG.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

I agree that 2e is outdated and full of holdovers that needed to be updated. But not all progress is good and sometimes you end up with Pintos that explode.

5e is the result of Mike Mearl's particular bugbears: he hates miniatures, hates combat, and hates dealing with complex spells or magic items. He's a pure storyfag who somehow ended up in charge of one of the premier combat RPGs in existence and proceeded to turn it first into a lame-ass board game (4e) and now a dumbass game of 'lets pretend.'

 

[AwesomeButton]

All this bitching about the flaws of the old editions, like they make BG/2 a less enjoyable game somehow retroactively, just makes me itch to fire up Pathfinder Kingmaker right now. You poor saps.

 

[Razzoriel]

AD&D ruleset is a child of its own time and, as such, it is plagued by dysfunctional rules and flawed design decisions.

There is no best ruleset, only the one with flaws in sections you dont care as much.