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Why aren't there more Skyrim clones?

TedNugent

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The good parts of Twitcher 3 have nothing to do with the "open world" aspect though.
Is there an open world game where this doesn't apply?

I've never played an open world game and thought, gee, I'm so glad that this is an empty desert with sporadic filler quests and randomly generated content.
 

KateMicucci

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The good parts of Twitcher 3 have nothing to do with the "open world" aspect though.
Is there an open world game where this doesn't apply?

I've never played an open world game and thought, gee, I'm so glad that this is an empty desert with sporadic filler quests and randomly generated content.
The appeal of open world games is that if I'm not having fun doing something, I can go do something else. It's the same reason why I prefer anthology books and TV shows to long series. I have a hard time making progress in games with 100 hour linear campaigns.

Games like Kingdumb Cum which are ostensibly open world but in reality are just a series of long linear cutscene quests don't quite count. And similar problem in Ubi games- there's an open world but it has nothing cool to find, and the real content is the scripted quests which are almost a different game.
 

JarlFrank

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The only ones doing anything remotely similar are Piranha Bytes, and they're better at the core aspects (exploration, player choice) than Bethesda, but a little worse at other aspects (moddability, character customization/LARPing). And for a mid-list European AA studio, PB are doing really well, too. And they show that this kind of game is viable even at lower budgets if you scale down the world size a little.

But other than that... it seems that "open world exploration RPG" has been replaced by "open world crafting game" in the minds of most developers.

Just look at the flood of indie games, mid-list games, and even AAA games heavily featuring crafting and usually with a co-op mode added in so you can play with your mates.
Valheim? It's basically Skyrim with a focus on crafting.
Conan Exiles? If you set your own server rules to have crafting be easy and quick, it basically plays like Skyrim. But if you keep the settings at default, crafting is a massive factor of the game (and it's also designed for multi).

Skyrim itself introduced crafting into the formula with making weapons and armor crafting a skill, and in Fallout 4 you can even build your own outposts and shit. Later developers elevated that feature to much higher importance so now it overshadows the core gameplay of exploration and questing.

Conan Exiles is the perfect example of a game that would play almost exactly like Skyrim if it didn't have any crafting and had NPCs who give you quests instead.

There are a handful of indie games that are closer to the Bethesda explorefag experience as opposed to the Minecrafty resource collectathon.
Wild West and Wizards is basically "Bethesda lite", an indie game where you play a wild west wizard or gunslinger. Low variety of weapons and enemies, but the world is sizeable and you get to explore it freely and openly like in a Bethesda game.
Gedonia titles itself "Classic Open World RPG" but I haven't played it yet. From videos and screenshots it looks like it's aiming for that Bethesda game niche.

I guess Outward is kinda sorta similar-ish but with a bigger focus on survival than on RPG elements.

The "Soulslike" has also overtaken Bethesda-style open worlds in popularity when it comes to indie and mid-budget developers.
So overall it looks like "Open World Survival Craft" (this has even become its own genre tag in Steam lmao) and "Souls-Like" have replaced Elder Scrolls and nu-Fallout style RPGs in public consciousness.
 
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People will say that Skyrim is 'wide as an ocean, deep as a pond'. It's derogatory, yes. But who said plowing an ocean wide pond is easy? CD Projekt is by all accounts a good developer. Their pipelines are well oiled and their products are popular. They are very good at what they do. But then they tried using the same team that made the Witcher 3 - open world of mostly fields and trees focused on a cinematic experience - to make a Rockstar esque experience - maker of high density urban open worlds that are not that cinematic when you think about it. The entire thing caved into itself. Simply put most developers are not geared towards doing what Bethesda does.

CD Projekt Red's fumble with Cyberpunk 2077 is baffling precisely because so many other developers before them didn't face-plant when doing their take on GTA like they did. Red went out there not even like they were reinventing the wheel, but like they had to invent it. I mean between GTA3 and Cyberpunk 2077 you've got many a open world sandbox games, and they run the gamut from things very much in the mold of GTA, to games like Spider-Man 2. While I have been saying here that the Assassin's Creed team could pretty easily do something similar to Elder Scrolls, I'd guess the origins of the series was something like "open world GTA-ish assassin Prince of Persia."

Cyberpunk 2077 also sounds like a feature creep mess where the people running the show weren't even sure how it should play for the longest time. I remember some tweet from one of the developers where they were asking about how aiming should work...and this was a few years into development. Maybe this is a RPG developer problem with overthinking things. That open world game BioWare couldn't figure out for some reason, the one that was like a Jade Empire sequel before becoming it's own thing had a similar problem. Basically BioWare wanted to make RPG Prototype, (now Prototype isn't out at this point yet, but hearing about what they wanted to do and it's Prototype; Radical's Hulk Ultimate Destruction however would have been out, and even came out the same year as Jade Empire) but for whatever bizarre reason they couldn't reconcile how to do this with a stat system and NPCs you could talk to. It's a very weird thing, and somehow they overthought themselves out of doing what had already been done before they even had the idea to do it as some kind of impossibility.

I think the only reason you don't see much in the way of people really going after what Bethesda does in the wake of Skyrim is because unlike the GTA games there's just not as many developers around anymore to do it. Probably also doesn't hurt that for as big as Skyrim was at the time, something like CoD was still bigger. Still, Witcher 3 and Inquisition being open world is probably a reaction to Skyrim; even if they aren't doing similar things. Activison doesn't really need a reaction to Skyrim, because they've got Diablo; although Diablo 4 is going open world too. Hellraid seemed like a reaction to Skyrim, but Techland went back to Dying Light. Ubisoft as previously noted just seem to be too dumb to capitalize on what Bethesda does; even though they're like one step away from it. Reality Pump was working on a new Two Worlds but I've no idea what happened to that; a few years back they said that was coming out this year. Arkane Studios got bought up by Bethesda. You could imagine Raven Software maybe making a take on Elder Scrolls if Activision didn't do what they did to them. And it's almost surprising Volition never tried at any point after Skyrim...although they're the same dummies that don't use their Red Faction distractibility in Saints Row because they think people won't like how it looks there.
 

KateMicucci

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I think the only reason you don't see much in the way of people really going after what Bethesda does in the wake of Skyrim is because unlike the GTA games there's just not as many developers around anymore to do it.
Yes. Looking at the 2017-2020 RPG chart, there aren't really very many medium-big budget RPGs lately. Almost everything is indie.

Kingdom Come feels like a Skyrim survival mod already. It just needs more content and less linear cutscene quests. Maybe the sequel.

Kingmaker might have been an interesting isometric party-based skyrim if the whole map was available from the beginning, the space between the areas was walkable, and enemy levels were readjusted so that a level 1 party wouldn't get flattened.

Larian has the staff and budget, but a Larian attempt at Skyrim is hard to imagine. They like little worlds gated with steep leveling.

Obsidian has Avowed. We'll see.

Bioware is working on DA4, but there's no info on that game, and we'll have to see how well they do at their stated goal of restoring their reputation.

CDPR is probably spent for a while after CP2077.

Then there's TES 6 itself, which doesn't even have a name yet.
 

Robotigan

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Difficult for RPG Codex to adequately answer this because most here have a powerful disdain for Bethesda clouding their analysis. Their engine and more so the engine tools are a big part of it. Here's Josh Sawyer explaining why open world development has historically been difficult in UE
 

Robotigan

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Goddamnit, mispost. Anyway, here's the Sawyer tweet. Additionally, Bethesda's entire development process is designed around iterating on their engine tooling enabling their artists and level designers to create content quickly. For instance, their engine manages content via records as opposed to flat files. So new changes can be incorporated easily without creating conflicts. All this tooling serves the additional purpose of making Bethesda's game highly moddable. A lot of this also is because they have a very veteran staff with some of the lowest turnover in the industry. A lot of their design leadership has been with the company since Oblivion or even Morrowind. It took Bethesda over a decade of investment to get to Skyrim.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I believe that a major factor that prevented developers from creating "Skyrim clones" (although at the time they might also have been Oblivion clones) was the idea that if you were going to create this huge open world full of content, why not make it an MMO and earn even more money? So a lot of studios wasted their time, money and effort trying to kill WoW instead of developing a pipeline for single player open world development, allowing Bethesda to get a head start.
 
Last edited:

Gradenmayer

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People will say that Skyrim is 'wide as an ocean, deep as a pond'. It's derogatory, yes. But who said plowing an ocean wide pond is easy? CD Projekt is by all accounts a good developer. Their pipelines are well oiled and their products are popular. They are very good at what they do. But then they tried using the same team that made the Witcher 3 - open world of mostly fields and trees focused on a cinematic experience - to make a Rockstar esque experience - maker of high density urban open worlds that are not that cinematic when you think about it. The entire thing caved into itself. Simply put most developers are not geared towards doing what Bethesda does.
They did not use the same team. Everyone left after Witcher 3 :D
From what I understand a lot of developers are always leaving every company since the videogame industry sucks. Team building is a perpetual effort. It is all about making sure new hires are well integrated into the existing pipeline. It's like how your body's cells are totally replaced every 7-10 years.
No, it's not that kind of replacement. It's '50% of the studio left instantly because they threw out 4th prototype for CP2077' kind of replacement.
 

purupuru

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I have came to the realization that open world is just a facade for Bethesda games, they are actually casual dungeon crawlers. There are not that much content in the open world itself (the randoms encounters are mostly flavor), you traverse the open world to get to dungeons, and 90% of quests is basically "go clear this dungeon" (ironically Morrowind probably deviates the most from this formula despite being release after Daggerfall). The dungeons in Skyrim and Fallout 4 are small and straight forward, but at least they look lived in and not copy pasted so they don't feel that repetitive, and there are just so many of them that you can't help but think maybe there are still a couple good/unique ones you have yet explored.
The other open world games make big beautiful open world but instead of making dungeons, they spread copy-pasted "activities" across the map, which starts to feel repetitive very fast. Oftentimes you can just look at the map and all those icons and know exactly what the area has to offer, and that just kills the sense of exploration.
 

anvi

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Both Bethesda and Ubisoft are utter shit. Stop doing this to yourselves.

If you really want to play a good version of Skyrim, play Breath of the Wild on an emulator or consoles. It's not exactly the same, but you basically get a huge sandbox to wander around in, with good combat, good story, good graphics, great world interaction, and so on.
Or EverQuest which is old lookin but so much depth it seems like about 100 Skyrims in one.
 

curds

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It blows my mind that no one has even attempted a "Morrowind Spiritual Successor" Kickstarter or something.

I'm not saying it would be good, just seems like a massive gap in the market. Morrowind is almost universally beloved, even zoomers who can't stand the graphics and clunkiness like the idea of it, so successor would appeal to them, too. People would lap it up.
 
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Difficult for RPG Codex to adequately answer this because most here have a powerful disdain for Bethesda clouding their analysis. Their engine and more so the engine tools are a big part of it. Here's Josh Sawyer explaining why open world development has historically been difficult in UE

People are bring up the engine and I'm just not getting this as the logic behind why it doesn't happen. It's not an engine thing, people make games with giant sprawling environments all the time. If any developer has an engine that can handle their big open world take on GTA, they've got an engine that can handle some kind of take on what Bethesda does. Maybe they can't all handle the novelty of being able to pick up every cup in the game, but until the day these become VR games where you can open your bag and put whatever item you want in it, it's just a novelty that doesn't even matter.

One of the reasons I brought up Ubisoft before was because I thought this indirectly answered this engine thing. Their Far Cry games made with Dunia, and there most recent Assassin's Creed games made with Anvil both do giant open worlds pretty easily. These two series also handle all kinds of things Betheada can't do in their games. The whole reason you don't have vehicles in Fallout is because their engine can't handle them; there's some video with Todd I remember see on this forum where he talks about how they tried cars in Fallout 3 but the engine just couldn't handle it...it's also why they had to fake the aircraft in Fallout 4. Unless they've made some big improvements to their engine, as of their most recent release they can't do towns populated to the degree even little locations in Assassin's Creed can, and they can't do something like letting you being able to jump into your own ship, take to the open seas, and allow you to get into ship battles.

But like Volition, Avalanche Studios, Monolith, Rockstar San Diego/Angel Studios, Pandemic, Criterion, Real Time World, Radical Entertainment; these are all other western developers that either were or are still around, that at some point in time since Morrowind have also had engines that could facilitate some game with large environments.
 

laclongquan

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It blows my mind that no one has even attempted a "Morrowind Spiritual Successor" Kickstarter or something.

I'm not saying it would be good, just seems like a massive gap in the market. Morrowind is almost universally beloved, even zoomers who can't stand the graphics and clunkiness like the idea of it, so successor would appeal to them, too. People would lap it up.
Morrowind is overrated. If there's a game said to be Morrowind (Spiritual) Successor I would walk away at fast pace. Case in point: Oblivion (even before launch) and Skyrim (even now). And I said this a MW player of at least 40 hours. I know how boring (and overrated) its writings can be.

Possibly the best achievement Skyrim ever made is that it getting out of Morrowind's umbrella and legacy. If you say Skyrim Spiritual Successor, I would at least sneak a peek.
 
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I believe that a major factor that prevented developers from creating "Skyrim clones" (although at the time they probably would have been Oblivion clones) was the idea that if you were going to create this huge open world full of content, why not make it an MMO and earn even more money? So a lot of studios wasted their time, money and effort trying to kill WoW instead of developing a pipeline for single player open world development, allowing Bethesda to get a head start.

Well here's the odd thing, there were a number of games that were sold or at least compared to Morrowind and Oblivion in some way. Arkane Studios games, those Risen games, Divinity 2, Kingdoms of Amalur, Dead Island, the Two Worlds games. But the amount of these you got decrease after the most successful Elder Scrolls game: Skyrim. You'd think when it's at it's most money making the total opposite thing would happen and you're get an uptick of others trying after Elder Scrolls in some way for a few years, but that isn't what happened. It's almost like if after Street Fighter 2 in 1991 you got less fighting games instead of more.

At most some other stuff that had been around also went open world, but nobody really went after it like they had been before, and Larian completely changed course with the Original Sin games. Not that there's been nothing in the ten years since Skyrim, but there's way less than one would think, and even what there is less similar than you'd think.
 

curds

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Morrowind is overrated.
I agree. Massively overrated. I still think it's a pretty good game, though.

If there's a game said to be Morrowind (Spiritual) Successor I would walk away at fast pace.
Yeah, like I said, I wouldn't expect a spiritual successor to be good. I'm just surprised nobody's attempted it, seeing as there's undeniably a huge market for it.
 

Tihskael

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People on this thread are massively overthinking it. The reason other studios have failed to put out Skyrim clones is because they lack a certain member of the chessclub to lead them to utopia.
 

Bastardchops

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Skyrim clones are the $100 bill laying on the sidewalk that nobody is picking up.
There probably aren't any clones because Skyrim doesn't have enough unique attributes for that to occur. Skyrim did come around the time open world games started getting churned out so it probably had an influence but it was hardly the first since Morrowind and others came many years prior.
The reason Diablo-clone or Dark Souls-clone/like exist is because they're games which came along and did something quite unique and very well which other games hadn't already done.
 

Tyranicon

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I think people massively underestimate how much work would go into a first-person RPG, even with modern technology and allowing for a moderate level of jank.

I mean, yeah I can probably load up a kit on Unity and make one in a few months, but it'll be hot garbage.
 

curds

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The reason Diablo-clone or Dark Souls-clone/like exist is because they're games which came along and did something quite unique and very well which other games hadn't already done.
IMO the Elder Scrolls games are unique. Shallow, but unique. Their defining feature is not being open world but being fantasy LARPing simulators, which don't exist outside of TES.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

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People on this thread are massively overthinking it. The reason other studios have failed to put out Skyrim clones is because they lack a certain member of the chessclub to lead them to utopia.
There aren't Skyrim clones because Todd wills it so.

l62uxo.png
 

Bad Sector

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For instance, their engine manages content via records as opposed to flat files. So new changes can be incorporated easily without creating conflicts. All this tooling serves the additional purpose of making Bethesda's game highly moddable.

While their engine is a big reason for their success, the records vs flat files isn't really relevant - a file is just a record in the directory it is under. You'd get exactly the same functionality if for every record in the TES editor you had a file instead and used file extensions to group different object types. Modding would be as simple as replacing files or having the engine look into "mod" directory before looking into the "data" directory whenever the "Pants of Fire.armor" file was about to be loaded. Many engines already work like that - it is how they are using those records/files at a higher level that affect their moddability.

People are bring up the engine and I'm just not getting this as the logic behind why it doesn't happen. It's not an engine thing, people make games with giant sprawling environments all the time. If any developer has an engine that can handle their big open world take on GTA, they've got an engine that can handle some kind of take on what Bethesda does. Maybe they can't all handle the novelty of being able to pick up every cup in the game, but until the day these become VR games where you can open your bag and put whatever item you want in it, it's just a novelty that doesn't even matter.

The thing is, it is exactly what you think as novelty that requires the functionality to be there to make a game like Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, etc. The ability to pick up every cup has a ton of implications on the systems that support said cup picking.

Being able to pick up -and drop- every cup means:
  • Every cup is an actual item, so the engine needs support for arbitrary items in the inventory.
    • This implies a flexible inventory system that can contain any sort of item, not just predefined items like weapons or arbitrary limitations like being able to carry only a single weapon and a single set of armor
    • It also requires an "item" to be more than a model - items may need 2D and 3D representation, some sort of name/description, have stats like weight (if there is a weird system) or dimensions (if there is a tetris-like inventory system), etc
  • Arbitrary items, like cups, can be moved around, meaning that you can't just merge all static props into big meshes - a common optimization engines do that while allows for more detailed graphics, it also creates more static worlds (since you can't move shit around). You must be able to handle any cup -or other item- being placed at any position, rotation, etc in the world.
  • Being able to drop the cup you picked up means that you need to be able to drop items from your inventory, which in turn means that you can introduce new items to the 3D world that they weren't previously there (picking up an item essentially removes it from the 3D world) - for simple rooms this might be simple, but this needs to work even if you do it across the entire overworld
  • Big open worlds, be it seamless (gothic, elex), mostly seamless (morrowind, oblivion, skyrim) or with an abstracted overworld (fallout 1/2) allow you to move (almost) anywhere you want at any time, meaning that if you can pick up and drop a cup you can pick up and drop ANY object, including objects you may need.
    • This implies that the game must keep track if where and how you dropped the item so that if you drop the Axe of Major Buttkicking that is necessary to complete a quest (main or not), you must be able to go back and pick it up right from where you dropped it (if this is something that should make sense to happen or not is a game design issue -e.g. you may actually want to punish someone for dropping the Axe in the middle of a square- but the engine should allow it regardless).
    • And of course having this done just for said Axe makes no sense since it might also be needed for the Staff of Lightingbulbs or whatever else you may not even know it exists, so you need it for any item that can be placed in the world - cups included, since those are items too.
    • However it also means that since those games do not keep the entire world state in memory but instead load in and out stuff in pieces as they are needed (be it via cells like in Bethesda's games, individual areas like in Fallout 1/2/ATOM, etc or object groups like in some other engines), they need some way to store persistent information for objects that are going to be unloaded to be kept around until they are loaded later when the player comes back.
      • This also need to take into account savegame state - ie. persistent data are not to be mixed with savegame data and if stored on disk, they must not affect reloading a previous game or starting a new game.
  • If any item, like a cup, can be placed around dynamically, the NPCs that move should be able to somehow handle them when they are trying to move - a cup shouldn't make an NPC stop in their tracks, the NPC should be able to work around (or jump over or kick them away) items that were placed in front of them.
Of course being able to pick up any cup is part of the puzzle and really only one aspect of having a more simulationist and dynamic approach to the game systems instead of relying on a static and scripted world. Many games go for the latter partly because it allows for a more controlled environment (which helps to avoid "jank") but also because it is simply both easier and faster (from a performance standpoint) to avoid too much dynamic and unpredictable elements.

But the same mindset that would enable the above also enables for things like how in Bethesda's games NPCs and the player have the same stats and working inventory, how you can pick pocket someone not only to take items from them but also put items in their pocket, for things like in Oblivion every NPC being able to pick up a weapon from the ground, meaning that you can drop weapons for NPCs to pick up.

Having a rendering engine that can render a big world isn't really the important -or even necessary- thing, it is surface level stuff. It is just what people first see in these games and what is easy to promote with videos, screenshots, etc. Being able to show something like you pickpocketing an NPC to take away his dagger, then placing an enchanted dagger next to him that damages the holder before you attack them and having the NPC pick it up to attack you while you run away, isn't something that you can really see in PR-oriented videos by developers that would rather wow the crowds at E3 with their perfectly rendered mountains or even trust to not be something specific and scripted for that particular video.

(BTW AFAIK the above isn't possible in Bethesda's games either because they dumbed down the enchanting in Oblivion though it would be possible if you could do negative effects in Oblivion or NPCs would pick up items in Morrowind, but in any case it is an example of something that could feasibly happen)
 

Lyric Suite

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I thimk my original theory still stands here.

We are talking about the same industry that can't get something as basic as a first person shooter without shoving all sorts of mechanical restrictions, linear designs and faux cinematic shit into it.

They cannot make a Skyrim clone because they don't have the capacity to understand what it is.
 
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My point was picking up every cup is a novelty nobody gives a shit about anymore. The novelty is no longer novel, so it's not something anyone thinking about making some take on Elder Scrolls would need to worry about because you don't even need it in the game. It's only going to become novel again when these games are being made for VR, and picking every little thing up means you do stuff like Half-Life Alyx lets you do...like personally picking up a container, placing objects in it, and just walking around with the container functioning like a container should. But as of now, and as for the last 20 years, it's just a pointless novelty you don't have to have because it's totally meaningless. If tomorrow Rockstar released some high fantasy game that let you do all the same kind of shit you can do in RDR2, and it was like the challenger to Skyrim's crown when it comes to making money, nobody playing it would be like: Well, I can't pick up this random bowl that does nothing...this sucks.

I feel like there's lots of games where you can disarm an enemy now and they'll pick some weapon up off the ground and try using it. I'm not sure how difficult these kinds of systemic things are.
 

Robotigan

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While their engine is a big reason for their success, the records vs flat files isn't really relevant - a file is just a record in the directory it is under. You'd get exactly the same functionality if for every record in the TES editor you had a file instead and used file extensions to group different object types. Modding would be as simple as replacing files or having the engine look into "mod" directory before looking into the "data" directory whenever the "Pants of Fire.armor" file was about to be loaded. Many engines already work like that - it is how they are using those records/files at a higher level that affect their moddability.

I've never worked on games, but I am a programmer. I've heard Bethesda's record system is somewhat unique because many games have object data grouped into flat files or some immutable list. I can imagine hash-checking for an object id in a list is just a wee bit faster than checking an object property. But the problem this presents is that when someone wants to add a new weapon, they must modify the weapons list and that creates conflicts when several modded weapons are all trying to write themselves to the weapons list without knowing about the others. However Bethesda's record system is engineered makes it super stable even under heavy modification.
 

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