Why end 80s/earlier 90s JRPG's so different than modern ones?

[Damned Registrations]

About JRPG's, There are any post apocalyptic one?

There's quite a few, actually. Though it's kind of a vague setting, and a lot of them are far enough past the apocalypse that it's not apparent from the beginning.

Pretty much the entire BoF series, despite each being a stand alone game, is a post apocalypse, the world having been long ago destroyed by a war with dragons. 3,4,5 all have fairly unique settings imo. 5 especially has that scavenger vibe.

FF6 has an apocalypse mid game. And not like, 'the sky changes colour, lets go save the world!' that you get in Tales of Destiny. The world is literally reshaped, cities get wiped off the map and everything goes to shit.

Chrono Trigger has like, 3 apocalypses. 1 is the standard sci fi nuclear winter one, another is the prehistoric end of the dinosaurs one (except people were alive back then too) and another is the fall of a kingdom of floating islands. Only 1 timeline really feels post apocalyptic though.

7th SaGa, Phantasy Star, and pretty much any sci-fi fantasy game is predicated on an apocalypse wiping out an advanced civilization. Hell, even a lot of straight up fantasy falls into this category, there was just never an advanced civilization to begin with.

Star Ocean 2 blows up an entire planet. Though, there's there's no 'post' since there's nothing left. Also they do a weird 'didn't count' gameplay wise by giving you an optional VR version of it that still inexplicably grants loot so you can't permanently miss out on as much as you otherwise would.

FF5 does that weird merging of worlds thing. Can't recall the details there.

Megaman Legends (jrpg is a bit of a stretch here but whatever) is all about scavenging ruins of a fallen civilization. Shame the series died, had a lot going for it. Also pretty much the only one here without the fantasy element.

 

[Ialda]

Baroque, Phantasy Star (was it 2 or 4 ? I don't remember) and most mainline SMT games are set either during or after an apocalypse.

Xenogears is set millenia after an apocalypse-grade event, and the real thing kick in during the last 10 hours of the game.

 

[Cryomancer]

Thanks for all answers. Only one more question. Is Fatal Bullet worth? https://store.steampowered.com/app/626690/Sword_Art_Online_Fatal_Bullet/

Does it has good firearms? I don't mean new vegas level of good firearms. Looks like PTRD-1941, is in the game. The worst thing that can happen is i spending 666 hours to get one only to have Kirito-like Generi-kuns making the weapon which defeated most German light tanks on WW2 worthless because they can cut a projectile which leaves the barrel at more than 1100 m/s.

Seeing just this video, the gunplay doesn't seem good as new vegas BUT doesn't seems bad either

 

[Damned Registrations]

I haven't played that one, but the SAO game I did play was completely insufferable. So much dialogue it was practically a VN, and every objective simply required walking somewhere, often backtracking through a recent area. Combat was trivially easy but time consuming, so all the cool stats and skills didn't really matter. I'd need to see a pretty glowing recommendation to consider giving it a shot again.

 

[Sigourn]

most mainline SMT games are set either during or after an apocalypse.

If by post-apocalyptic you meant something along the lines of Fallout (post-apocalypse based on our world and still recognizable after the apocalypse), this is your best bet. S0rcererV1ct0r

 

[Thac0]

Thanks for all answers. Only one more question. Is Fatal Bullet worth? https://store.steampowered.com/app/626690/Sword_Art_Online_Fatal_Bullet/

Does it has good firearms? I don't mean new vegas level of good firearms. Looks like PTRD-1941, is in the game. The worst thing that can happen is i spending 666 hours to get one only to have Kirito-like Generi-kuns making the weapon which defeated most German light tanks on WW2 worthless because they can cut a projectile which leaves the barrel at more than 1100 m/s.

Seeing just this video, the gunplay doesn't seem good as new vegas BUT doesn't seems bad either

Sword Art Online is the Japanese equivalent of Transformers. Meaning that while it has very broad mass appeal everyone who is a bit deeper into the scene thinks its trash. When a new piece of SAO media arrives everyone assumes it is awfull until proven otherwise.
Also its main character Kirito is the genesis, epitome and apex of all those anime swordsman stereotypes you are always circlejerking about. 100% bland, soulless, edgy and overpowered. Maybe you will like it for the sheer unintended satire of that archetype alone.

Noone on the codex seems to have played Fatal Bullet, including me. People on 4chan are torn between its pretty fun and its talentless grinding with a trashy story. Didnt see the game being discussed anywhere else.
Onholy amount of reviews tho. 10k for that?

 

[Cryomancer]

Also its main character Kirito is the genesis, epitome and apex of all those anime swordsman stereotypes you are always circlejerking about. 100% bland, soulless, edgy and overpowered. Maybe you will like it for the sheer unintended satire of that archetype alone.

Kirito and Asta are the most Generi-kuns of the Japan.

As for fatal bullet, believe or not, i purchased. Is average, but i an liking exactly because there are a very long time since i could experience DECENT(not good) firearms in a RPG. I honestly don't know why so many RPG's bother to include firearms only to make then trash. I love piranha bytes, but "melee" range for pistols on Risen 3 is unacceptable. I din't liked cooldowns, nor the fact that all snipers uses the same ammo, but aiming the weakspots is fun but i only played it for about an hour after the tutorial. I would say that is a serviceable game, i mean, there are people here who defend fallout 76.

PS : Fatal bullet would be unplayable if i had to play with a Kirito style Generi-kun.

 

[Cryomancer]

Anyway, played a little more of Fatal Bullet. Din't liked much the game.

Bullet sponges everywhere. Anti Materiel rifles are extremely hard to get weapons on the anime but in game, you can easily get, but enemies needs dozens of headshots to be downed. All weapons of the same type uses the same ammo and instead of explosive rounds being a highly expensive and rare to find ammo like new vegas, are skills on cooldowns. The aim assist apparently can't be turned off and makes aiming on weakspots far harder.

And the story is not good either. In fact, the dialogs are so slow and boring, showed in two lines to two lines.

In nutshell, din't liked fatal bullet as a rpg, din't liked fatal bullet as a anime game, din't liked fatal bullet as a shooter, din't liked fatal bullet story(...) And i an not that exigent when come to shooters. I mean, i played Crossfire, a chinese CS:GO clone for a very long time. Just by not having paintball maps with everyone running with SMG's and dumb visual effects like motion blur is enough to me... Even stalked online seems good. Unfortunately if i wanna to play it i would have to deal with a ludicrous high ping.

 

[Thac0]

Anyway, played a little more of Fatal Bullet. Din't liked much the game.

Bullet sponges everywhere. Anti Materiel rifles are extremely hard to get weapons on the anime but in game, you can easily get, but enemies needs dozens of headshots to be downed. All weapons of the same type uses the same ammo and instead of explosive rounds being a highly expensive and rare to find ammo like new vegas, are skills on cooldowns. The aim assist apparently can't be turned off and makes aiming on weakspots far harder.

And the story is not good either. In fact, the dialogs are so slow and boring, showed in two lines to two lines.

In nutshell, din't liked fatal bullet as a rpg, din't liked fatal bullet as a anime game, din't liked fatal bullet as a shooter, din't liked fatal bullet story(...) And i an not that exigent when come to shooters. I mean, i played Crossfire, a chinese CS:GO clone for a very long time. Just by not having paintball maps with everyone running with SMG's and dumb visual effects like motion blur is enough to me... Even stalked online seems good. Unfortunately if i wanna to play it i would have to deal with a ludicrous high ping.

To be expected, I called it Anime Transformers for a reason.
For a decent anime dark souls clone that has muskets as a weapon you could try Code Vein. Its bit more comical and light hearted but fine.

You wont find good gunplay in any anime games. Guns are haram for them and even more illegal than in Germany or the UK. Safe to say 99% of the Japanese have never handled a gun in their life.
The only games they have with guns in them are sidescrollers or bullethells like Metal Slug and action games like Resident Evil.
I guess you could try Earth Defense Force. It doesnt have goog gunplay but it has you with a squad of soldiers fighting against swarms of Aliens. You get a lot of bullets, they do a lot of damage, there is an uncountable amount of enemies.

 

[Cryomancer]

You wont find good gunplay in any anime games. Guns are haram for them and even more illegal than in Germany or the UK. Safe to say 99% of the Japanese have never handled a gun in their life.

Sadly because in some animes, guns are amazing. Drifters, Hellsing and Black Lagoon for eg. But i live in a semi socialist country which draconian anti gun laws(br) BUT live close to the border and a lot of people here has illegal firearms(myself not included), this laws are "relatively" recent. During imperial times, only blacks could't own firearms and most members of nobility commonly had a decent sized ""private army""(it was necessary in case of the slaves rebel, see what happened on Haiti). Anyway, Japan is relative close to Guam. A lot of Japanese can spend some days in Guam and learn how to shot. Argentina is a relative cheap country where a tourist can easily legally hunt boars with .45-70 rifles and .308 win rifles. Semi automatic rifles are more restricted there. Homemade firearms aren't hard to get any part of the world either. I know that in Japan, they the most common alignment is "lawful neutral" so it will rarely happens, but...

a 10 yo on guam firing a Barrett M95

homemade smg

Japanese games(not only RPGs) seems to have a strongly anti ranged bias. There are exceptions like Dragon's Dogma which has the greatest longbow gameplay ever, but in general spells, bows and guns in their games seems not great. And the majority of their RPG's don't even include this options and limit it to enemies.

Nioh 1/2 seems extremely interesting. Sekiro for me, is not. About code vein, seems that has a lot of cooldowns on everything. Nioh 1/2 seems great not only on firearms, but in polearms and magic too.

 

[Thac0]

Japanese games(not only RPGs) seems to have a strongly anti ranged bias. There are exceptions like Dragon's Dogma which has the greatest longbow gameplay ever, but in general spells, bows and guns in their games seems not great. And the majority of their RPG's don't even include this options and limit it to enemies.

As far as I know this is related to that "lawfull neutral" thing. Shooting the enemy often involves gaming the AI with terrain and stuff, and that is seen as the wrong "dishonorable" way to win the game by many Japs devs. It is a strange culture.
So when they allow you to make a good ranged character it is usually in a game that is completely balanced around ranged combat or the ranged combat is just a garnish for melee combos. But the first kind is very rare.

I only play a bit of Nioh1 and it wasnt my taste. Yes its more rpg than Dark Souls, but for me Diablo style loot does not complement the Dark Souls formula well at all. I enjoyed Sekiro much more. Nioh is competently made tho.

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

Vanquish, Resident Evil 4 & 6, Metal Gear Solid 5, Binary Domain, Lost Planet 1 & 2...Japan has been putting out some of the best third person shooters for the last decade and a half now. Or at least between 2005 and 2015 they put out some of the best third person shooters. The EDF games are certainly fun, so I guess you could say it goes beyond 2015. They're weirdly not into first person shooters, although they seemingly have no problem with that perspective given how big light gun games were.

Although those aren't JRPGs.

Most JRPGs aren't action games, so you aren't going to have third person shooting controls like with the bow in Dragon's Dogma. Even when they are action, it seems like the shootings mechanics are the kind of pre third person shooter lock-on system you'll find in something like Devil May Cry and the original Tomb Raider games.

 

[Anonona]

Is also important to know that FPS/TPS are actually a niche genre in japan, usually associated with "westaboos", while jprgs are the "mainstream" genre everyone and their mother plays, particularly games like Dragon Quest are huge in Japan. Is like an inverse situation from the west funny enough, where FPS are the mainstream genre and JRPGs are for weaboos. Here in the west only a few jrpgs arrive, usually the most popular or the best (arguably). Add that many "follow the leader" mentality, like developers imitating call of duty or Overwatch or whatever FPS is popular, JRPG also imitates popular ones, like Dragon Quest, which are mostly about medieval fantasy with a lot of classical tropes like a swordsman as a protagonist using legendary magic swords and the like.

 

[Thac0]

while jprgs are the "mainstream" genre everyone and their mother plays, particularly games like Dragon Quest are huge in Japan.

What can I say except superior culture. The incline is well alive over there. Thankfully the west is finally catching up and making some good and proper rpgs again.

 

[Cryomancer]

Yep. the west suffered far more from decline than japan. But Anonoma is right. On West, shooters are extremely popular. 4/5 of the most played games on steam involves firearms ( https://steamcharts.com/top )

Anyway, on Eastern Europe seems that Gothic is famous like Dragon Quest on Japan. A lot of good mods like Returning only has a poor translation to English. I also believe that WRPG's ended being completely different because during the popularization of RPG's, companies which made strategic and simulations like SSI(Strategic Simulations INC) popularized the genre, while on Japan, was anime companies(not sure).

 

[Perkel]

Because early ones were made by dreamers and passionate devs while later ones are made by people in suits who have other interests like selling marchandize and clothes. They were made by people who didn't know what JRPG was, they were creating game that felt right to them instead of following some tropes like Bravely Default.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

I think it's more the finality of capitalism.

 

[mk0]

Modern society is too conformist to explore new ideas, stepping outside the accepted norms is swiftly punished in the age of social media where everything is examined and measured to the nth degree. I think back then you could get away with more outlandish ideas while having a modicum of success since people didn't have as much information available to them to make judgements. These days thanks to the power of the internet everyone congregates around what is considered to be the 'best' stuff and ignore the rest.

That's my current take on the decline of JRPGs and modern media in general. I'm still waiting for a worthy successor to Xenogears and Xenosaga.

 

[Gastrick]

A lot of misconceptions and poorly thought conclusions in this thread for the sake of looking smarter. It's easier to say everything has gone to shit, woe is all, without putting in the time to learn where your tastes can be found elsewhere and truly knowing about the trends of the culture.

Just on the anime industry alone, a lot of people always look at the outlier lightning in the bottle masterpieces without even bothering to look at what the industry was truly like. You think something like Gundam was easily attainable, that it was common? There's a reason it was a cultural phenomenon. But a thing that a lot of people seem to ignore is that media can't get that big like that as to inspire copycats. There's a lot more choices now to be made about what you consume so there's a lot more products gearing themselves to specific audiences when they're outside of the mainstream bubble.

10 Ways that old anime are better, my cutoff is Evangelion being the first modern anime:

1. More detailed and realistic art-style with better body proportions.
2. Soyboy characters are unheard of whereas with modern anime, until jojo, macho characters were unheard of.
3. Much more sci-fi and mecha anime shows. which is especially a loss with sci-fi.
4. Restrained ecchi or no ecchi.
5. They used more interesting special effects like turning the screen neon.
6. Are pleasant to watch, and also can get really over the top.
7. Some are actually funny compared to modern anime which are always unfunny.
8. Many anime were over 25 episodes compared to current dip to just 12 episodes per season.
9. No still-frame-and-mouths-moving conversations.
   
10. Characters are more serious even though goofy retard characters still existed.

The unfortunate thing is that, even though they are better overall, many of them still sucked.

 

[Siveon]

10 Ways that old anime are better, my cutoff is Evangelion being the first modern anime:

Congratulations, you're just proving my point.

 

[Gastrick]

10 Ways that old anime are better, my cutoff is Evangelion being the first modern anime:

Congratulations, you're just proving my point.

Is it not accurate to the industry to use it as a separation point? I'm taking them as a whole, not as Hokuto no Ken vs. Evangelion.

 

[Thac0]

10 Ways that old anime are better, my cutoff is Evangelion being the first modern anime:

Congratulations, you're just proving my point.

Is it not accurate to the industry to use it as a separation point? I'm taking them as a whole, not as Hokuto no Ken vs. Evangelion.

Evangelion is a deconstruction of the Mecha genre that become ubitiquos by that point, and kinda does its own thing. In the genre shift it is the kid in the back smoking crack.
I am not hugely knowledgable on the development of anime into moe but stuff like Cardcaptor Sakura and the much later Lucky Star make better breakpoints imo. Those made huge shifts and were widely influential and are still.

 

[Gastrick]

10 Ways that old anime are better, my cutoff is Evangelion being the first modern anime:

Congratulations, you're just proving my point.

Is it not accurate to the industry to use it as a separation point? I'm taking them as a whole, not as Hokuto no Ken vs. Evangelion.

Evangelion is a deconstruction of the Mecha genre that become ubitiquos by that point, and kinda does its own thing. In the genre shift it is the kid in the back smoking crack.
I am not hugely knowledgable on the development of anime into moe but stuff like Cardcaptor Sakura and the much later Lucky Star make better breakpoints imo. Those made huge shifts and were widely influential and are still.

Is "deconstruction" a codeword for "cliche" because that's what would describe Evangelion. Psychological stuff was done before in the real-robot genre at the time, with Zeta Gundam's stuff about memories for example and Ghost in the Shell. Votoms is also much grittier than Evangelion. The first Gundam show also has the MC who doesn't want to get in the robot. The biggest change is that the character development of the MC maturing was removed from Evangelion and he's more of a pussy.
Most of the influence is in the characters with Shinji himself and popularizing tsundere and kuudere tropes. Edit: Tenchi Muyo from earlier had a similar influence. The change from old to new would has an in-between period of mixed shows where Eva still has 1, 3, 5, 9 on my list. Instead of still frame conversations, it has the elevator scene and where Shinji is deciding whether to kill the angel boy for 2 minutes.
I wouldn't know for moe, I've never been too interested in them and the only one I can recall seeing is Higurashi.

 

[Ialda]

"Deconstruction" actually means "an autistic growup who take stories written for children way too seriously". Take Ideon, for example : much more bleak than Evangelion ever was, but still a children show that never took itself as seriously as Eva ;p

I think it's more the finality of capitalism.

Audience and artists change during a span of 20 or 30 years, nothing extraordinary. The past is a foreign country.

 

[Cryomancer]

I have heard that FF5 has a interesting class system. IS good?