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Why first person perspective is becoming rarer and rarer among RPGs?

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
57,625
Games in the past were trying to be simulations.

Now they are made for people who grew up playing kiddie mobile games.

There was a time when developers were self conscious that games were perceived to be for kids so they tried to make them as adult as they could. Zoomer devs by contrast want to be as infantile as possible, hence the proliferation of kiddie mobile cartoon graphics and perspectives that actually minimize the realism.

I had the perfect example when I loaded StarCraft remastered for the first time, and it started with the kiddie cartoon skin by default. You can tell how proud the nu-zoomer devs in the company were with that shit.
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
14,216
I knew some bros named Tim & Scott. I think they were druggies though and not wizards.
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
14,216
Games in the past were trying to be simulations.

Now they are made for people who grew up playing kiddie mobile games.

There was a time when developers were self conscious that games were perceived to be for kids so they tried to make them as adult as they could. Zoomer devs by contrast want to be as infantile as possible, hence the proliferation of kiddie mobile cartoon graphics and perspectives that actually minimize the realism.

I had the perfect example when I loaded StarCraft remastered for the first time, and it started with the kiddie cartoon skin by default. You can tell how proud the nu-zoomer devs in the company were with that shit.
Was there a way to patch in something better?
 

Zed Duke of Banville

Dungeon Master
Patron
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
12,579
A real question: Why haven't rpg developers learned that Tim the Enchanter from Monty Python is in fact the perfect writing for a high level wizard?
Dragon's Crown had a nice reference to Tim the Enchanter with the Forest Hermit (though it isn't an RPG):

16mwg4.gif
 

FriendlyMerchant

Guest
Games in the past were trying to be simulations.

Now they are made for people who grew up playing kiddie mobile games.

There was a time when developers were self conscious that games were perceived to be for kids so they tried to make them as adult as they could. Zoomer devs by contrast want to be as infantile as possible, hence the proliferation of kiddie mobile cartoon graphics and perspectives that actually minimize the realism.

I had the perfect example when I loaded StarCraft remastered for the first time, and it started with the kiddie cartoon skin by default. You can tell how proud the nu-zoomer devs in the company were with that shit.
Was there a way to patch in something better?
Yes. Torrent the original release with the original textures. If you want widescreen, just use the widescreen fix.
 

anvi

Prophet
Village Idiot
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
7,899
Location
Kelethin
"We have bombed the masculinity out of an entire continent. We dropped two atomic bombs on fucking Japan, and they’ve been drawing Hello Kitty and shit ever since. There’s a lot of lady-boys in the wake of our bombs."
 
Self-Ejected

Lim-Dûl

Self-Ejected
Joined
Apr 11, 2022
Messages
388
Games in the past were trying to be simulations.

Now they are made for people who grew up playing kiddie mobile games.

There was a time when developers were self conscious that games were perceived to be for kids so they tried to make them as adult as they could. Zoomer devs by contrast want to be as infantile as possible, hence the proliferation of kiddie mobile cartoon graphics and perspectives that actually minimize the realism.

I had the perfect example when I loaded StarCraft remastered for the first time, and it started with the kiddie cartoon skin by default. You can tell how proud the nu-zoomer devs in the company were with that shit.
I'm guessing the simplistic art style is cheaper and that is the main reason why most devs choose it over detailed art styles. If there were strong enough resistance to this style from their potential customers, they would be encouraged to spend more for detailed art. But people can't help but spread their wallets for their favorite companies.
And there are leading organizations that seem to have other reasons for pushing extremely simplistic art, music etc. and smaller companies are encouraged to follow.
 

Grimlorn

Arcane
Joined
Jun 1, 2011
Messages
10,248

FriendlyMerchant

Guest
A real question: Why haven't rpg developers learned that Tim the Enchanter from Monty Python is in fact the perfect writing for a high level wizard?


Maybe they don't want to participate in perpetuating a harmful stereotype.

Now that just sounds like typical left-wing babble.

It's the language of your people.

Cool it with the antisemitic remarks goy.
 

gurugeorge

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Messages
7,801
Location
London, UK
Strap Yourselves In
Yeah the squeeze is from both sides - 3rd person dress-up and isometric nostalgia.

Blobbers just seem to me to be an artifact of older technology. I guess if you grew up with them you'll have a fondness for them, but that's the same for all of us who have a fondness for gaming constraints we grew up with due to some tech limitation. The fondness for fixed isometric is just from a different, slightly later school of nostalgia for old tech limitations.
Zoomed out birds eye view is a very convenient way to let the player take in all the information from his character's surroundings at a glance. This functionality is very important for reducing drudgery, which is a major design goal of a lot of RPG devs. You can't boil it down to just "nostalgia".

Zoomed-out birds-eye is different from fixed isometric - for example the Owlcat games or the middle-to-late period BioWare games allow you to zoom out and take a birds-eye view, but the games are fully 3-d. Fixed isometric was its own development, mainly due to the then-crappiness of graphically-realized 3-d worlds and the artistic then-superiority of the painted backgrounds - though you're right about the rationale. But 3-d graphics have gotten so good that they're way beyond the early fixed isometric (which was artistically stunning at the time), and nowadays there's not a lot in it between the visual beauty of the backgrounds in the fully 3-d games (e.g. Owlcat, Larian, even Solasta) and the fixed isometric (e.g. the Pillars games). I think the Pillars games just have the edge in terms of the jewelline beauty of their backgrounds, but the distance isn't that great these days, or at least I don't find it to be so.

Fixed isometric is a bit of a toss-up - you gain that little bit (nowadays) in visual beauty, but you lose a bit in terms of the fact that the backgrounds have to be rather awkwardly built (in terms of pseudo-realism) to accommodate the fixed perspective (you don't want to have interactables behind a wall where you can't see them, for example), whereas fully 3-d games can have more realistic, familiar-feeling layouts.
 

gaussgunner

Arcane
Joined
Jul 22, 2015
Messages
6,159
Location
ХУДШИЕ США
Never liked first person perspective in video games, it's impossible to properly represent a first person view without VR. Human field of view is significantly larger than you can represent using standard perspective projection and a single camera without extensive distortion. There are some tricks to work around this(curvilinear projection) but are rarely used, most likely due to being unknown, and because it would probably feel wrong to a lot of gamers now despite it being closer to being right.
e.g., panini projection, which is fairly optimal for human FOV.
Yeah, you've hit the nail on the head. I tried an Oculus headset once, it was surprisingly intuitive and not nauseating, but there is such a thing as too much immersion. I just want to play video games. For your typical melee-and-exploration action RPG, it turns out third-person is the best approximation of first-person on a regular monitor without warped perspective. It's zoomed out just enough to see your immediate surroundings and footing, since you can't turn your head to look around. It can always zoom in to first-person for shooting or conversations.

Panini projection looks like it distorts lines running perpendicular to the camera, enough to cause trouble with judging distances. Interesting but I think I'll pass.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
Panini projection looks like it distorts lines running perpendicular to the camera, enough to cause trouble with judging distances.
It requires additional correction that's not usually applied, but at high FOVs it causes far less distortion than perspective either way.
(click the images and use the arrow keys to quickly flip back and forth to compare)
Original 180 degree fisheye wide-angle shot:
sample1.jpg

Perspective(rectilinear) at 130 degrees:
persp130.jpg

Panini at 130 degrees:
pannini1.jpg

'Corrected'(as I referenced earlier) panini at 130 degrees:
pannini6.jpg

Slight curvature distortion near the edges is a much better tradeoff than the perspective massive proportional distortions across the entire image IMO.

Perspective(rectilinear) at 150 degrees, note how distorted it's becoming as the FOV approaches 180:
persp150.jpg

Panini projection at 150 degrees:
pannini5.jpg


I find the vertical distortion less bothersome than the massive distortion near the edges caused by the perspective projection. Compare the stack of papers and the woman in the bottom right, for example.

It becomes obvious why it's superior at high FOVs for video games, as your main concern is typically near the center of the screen rather than the peripheral, just like IRL human vision. Standard perspective distorts lines near the edge of the screen, and the distortion increases drastically as the FOV approaches 180 degrees. There's no way to avoid the distortion of projecting a 3D surface onto a 2D surface, but it can be mitigated.


You'd probably have to render at about 25% higher internal resolution to get the 'same' image as in perspective projection though.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
57,625
Games in the past were trying to be simulations.

Now they are made for people who grew up playing kiddie mobile games.

There was a time when developers were self conscious that games were perceived to be for kids so they tried to make them as adult as they could. Zoomer devs by contrast want to be as infantile as possible, hence the proliferation of kiddie mobile cartoon graphics and perspectives that actually minimize the realism.

I had the perfect example when I loaded StarCraft remastered for the first time, and it started with the kiddie cartoon skin by default. You can tell how proud the nu-zoomer devs in the company were with that shit.
Was there a way to patch in something better?

There's a bunch of different skins you can pick in the options, the kiddie one was just set by default. You can change the style of the visuals at any moment, including the origional graphics, i just thought that was a perfect rapresentation of the mindset of nu-devs though to pick that as the default skin.
 

Forest Dweller

Smoking Dicks
Joined
Oct 29, 2008
Messages
12,330
Many reasons, most of them mundane and in the immediate sense financially motivated, but overall I think it is an expected and natural consequence in the industry reflecting the evolution of human consciousness in microcosm; I'm referring to the qualitative mutations undergone in perspective and of our increasing awareness of space and time. To explain this well would be a difficult task on a forum post but I'd recommend reading Jean Gebser's The Ever-Present Origin, wherein he covers this phenomenon from both art history and metaphysical positions. A very basic outline of this work could be described as such: The evolution of human consciousness has developed so far across five psychosocial structures; approximately they are the archaic, magic, mythic, mental and (not finally, but ultimately, as far as we're presently concerned) the integral, and these structures arose and transformed concurrent to our developing conscious acuity in relation to time and space which occurred in three phases he called the unperspectival, the perspectival and on to the aperspectival.

The growing realization of spatial dimensions and of time can be traced across art history, observable in the two dimensional and disproportionate profile perspective of Egyptian, or Mayan, or Persian wall paintings and reliefs and for instance ancient Grecian pottery, to the development of portraiture and the Renaissance era shift to realized landscape foregrounds and backgrounds with intricate details depicted to scale, to the abstract art of the early modern period where unto visible and invisible space is added the presentation of time (most markedly as Gebser points out in a work of Picasso's which somehow portrays a woman from all three dimensions simultaneously). Each conscious mutation, he contends is not superior nor inferior to its former structures and includes all those preceding it while adapting. To my thinking it appears that the development of video games embody these same successive developmental structures, from the early instances of flat, 2D perspectives where time only moves vertically or horizontally forward or the pseudo first-person 3D wireframe games of the mid-seventies, onto extensions out into space by first and third person perspectives, the advent of real-time multiplayer interactivity, onto enhanced "3D" and now virtual reality. The greater impulse moving through the art world is towards the next structure, inclusive of all that came before but primarily oriented towards realizing the mutation. Virtual reality can even be thought of as undergoing its own very similar but more advanced developmental process, where in its early phases no other perspective can generally be conceived of than the first person or over-the-shoulder third person, unless a Picasso of the medium appears and completely alters our visionary possibilities. Like the several millennia of observable art history, we've had breakthroughs of perspective in video games only a handful of times, such as with Ultima Underworld. The few genuinely innovative artists alive and working in the industry today have been trying to achieve the next breakthrough, for instance Kojima and his "strand" games concept (one of the worst instances of self-celebrating I've ever seen, and I genuinely like some of his games), but as far as I'm aware nothing of the sort has happened yet. As we move closer to it, we will have more and more iterations of the same game (narrative-focused open-world amusement park styled sandboxes) as the majority become less inspired, less capable of innovation, less creative etc. The so-called CRPG "renaissance" is among the more grievous atrocities perpetuated under these abhorrent circumstances, thinking a simple reverting in perspective is a sufficient alternative and completely overlooking what made the classics what they are. First-person CRPGs are among the peak of the entirety of video games for me, but it was so much more than the perspective that made them so remarkable, such as the unique aesthetics where today everything has the same generic hyper-realistic style, where even the hand painted inventory icons and other features of the user interfaces look like parts of colored photographs.
blow-mind-mind-blown.gif
 

Blutwurstritter

Learned
Joined
Sep 18, 2021
Messages
983
Location
Germany
I really dislike fixed first person view with limited movement and only 90° turns. The same goes for controlling a whole group in first person view. I find the representation of most blobbers entirely off putting and would prefer it if they were in an isometric format. They never made sense to me, having played mostly ego-shooters before trying out rpgs. But I like first person for single character games with free view and free movement, stuff like Deus Ex, System Shock 2, Vampires, Arx Fatalis, Dark Messiah. These games make good use of first person view and I think many third person games could work nicely in first person too, with some small adjustments.
 
Joined
Nov 23, 2017
Messages
4,438
My guess would be the inherent expectations of what comes with the first person view as time went on and first person shooters started having stuff like mouse looking, aiming, and just more free control over your moment in general...so, not consoles. More that they were falling behind what first person shooters on PC were doing and starting to feel like old hat; like Might and Magic IV does not seem like a game coming two years after Duke Nukem 3D.

I know this is RPG Codex and all but how the fuck does one land on fucking consoles as the reason why they went away? JRPGs were probably hanging on to Blobbers and first person blobber elements long after the major PC Blobber RPGs were. If anything those Western blobber developers should've been able to make some moolah while they were still around in the PSX and PS2 era with Blobbers on consoles.
 
Joined
Jul 8, 2006
Messages
2,988
Games in the past were trying to be simulations.

Now they are made for people who grew up playing kiddie mobile games.

There was a time when developers were self conscious that games were perceived to be for kids so they tried to make them as adult as they could. Zoomer devs by contrast want to be as infantile as possible, hence the proliferation of kiddie mobile cartoon graphics and perspectives that actually minimize the realism.

I had the perfect example when I loaded StarCraft remastered for the first time, and it started with the kiddie cartoon skin by default. You can tell how proud the nu-zoomer devs in the company were with that shit.


:lol:
 

Trojan_generic

Magister
Joined
Jul 21, 2007
Messages
1,565
Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming!
In before 'Oblivion with lollipops as guns'.

But I'm sure you can sell a lot more copies if there is a well-known title with no age limit all of a sudden. Profits!
 

FriendlyMerchant

Guest
Panini projection looks like it distorts lines running perpendicular to the camera, enough to cause trouble with judging distances.
It requires additional correction that's not usually applied, but at high FOVs it causes far less distortion than perspective either way.
(click the images and use the arrow keys to quickly flip back and forth to compare)
Original 180 degree fisheye wide-angle shot:
sample1.jpg

Perspective(rectilinear) at 130 degrees:
persp130.jpg

Panini at 130 degrees:
pannini1.jpg

'Corrected'(as I referenced earlier) panini at 130 degrees:
pannini6.jpg

Slight curvature distortion near the edges is a much better tradeoff than the perspective massive proportional distortions across the entire image IMO.

Perspective(rectilinear) at 150 degrees, note how distorted it's becoming as the FOV approaches 180:
persp150.jpg

Panini projection at 150 degrees:
pannini5.jpg


I find the vertical distortion less bothersome than the massive distortion near the edges caused by the perspective projection. Compare the stack of papers and the woman in the bottom right, for example.

It becomes obvious why it's superior at high FOVs for video games, as your main concern is typically near the center of the screen rather than the peripheral, just like IRL human vision. Standard perspective distorts lines near the edge of the screen, and the distortion increases drastically as the FOV approaches 180 degrees. There's no way to avoid the distortion of projecting a 3D surface onto a 2D surface, but it can be mitigated.


You'd probably have to render at about 25% higher internal resolution to get the 'same' image as in perspective projection though.
Those perspectives are nauseating. I think I'm going to vomit.
 

FriendlyMerchant

Guest
My guess would be the inherent expectations of what comes with the first person view as time went on and first person shooters started having stuff like mouse looking, aiming, and just more free control over your moment in general...so, not consoles. More that they were falling behind what first person shooters on PC were doing and starting to feel like old hat; like Might and Magic IV does not seem like a game coming two years after Duke Nukem 3D.
In crpgs, it seems like the top down or at one of the varying 3rd perspective angles for a third person party-based gameplay opened up the potential for more complex gameplay than what was possible in something like M&M's, Wizardry, or Goldbox games. For D&D games, this meant the possibility for closer emulation of combat which was one of the goals of crpg development. Unfortunately, that stopped just after ToEE and KotC and there wasn't an attempt to really emulate a tabletop ruleset until the Shadowrun games, Kingmaker (though you needed mods to get the game to be an appropriate emulation of the tabletop ruleset; the turnbased mod before the less functional turnbased mode was released and the closer to tabletop mod or some other later mods), Solasta, and KotC2.
I know this is RPG Codex and all but how the fuck does one land on fucking consoles as the reason why they went away? JRPGs were probably hanging on to Blobbers and first person blobber elements long after the major PC Blobber RPGs were. If anything those Western blobber developers should've been able to make some moolah while they were still around in the PSX and PS2 era with Blobbers on consoles.
They probably didn't have the time to dedicate to console programming since they were already struggling with financial problems then. 3DO notably went bankrupt in the development of M&M9 and SSI was disbanded soon after being acquired by Ubisoft. It also doesn't seem like consoles were a good thing to get into at the time because most consoles were either Obscure, region specific things, or in the case of the US; their companies went bankrupt and it wasn't guaranteed that they'd be able to get customers for their games. The consoles that did survive seemed to be Japanese consoles with the like Nintendo with Final Fantasy or SEGA with Dragon Slayer coming out on their consoles almost the same time as their consoles were being released. By time most western developers where at that point, either consoles were dead in their country and DOS was the medium of choice or the only consoles were Japanese ones starting to get into their markets which likely would have been fairly difficult to get licensing for just due to language and international business constraints alone. It also makes sense since the biggest companies that seemed to survive at least up to 2003-2004 were Black Isle, Bioware, and Blizzard making games all on PC and not making any console releases until later. There wasn't a big western console that could stay in the market until the Xbox (2001).
 

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