Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Why is magic so strong in most RPGs?

ERYFKRAD

Barbarian
Patron
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
28,389
Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Mage vs warrior:
hqdefault.jpg
She lost though.
Of course. The simple, pure hearted warrior always beats the conniving, complicated wizard despite the latter's superior power and resources, because something always goes wrong when you dabble in the forbidden or your plans have too many moving parts. This is Fantasy Narrative 101. If you don't believe me, ask ERYFKRAD.

Akame. Simple? Pure hearted? :lol:
akame_ga_kill__akame_by_mobbindorrito-db96x1r.png

Totally simple and pure hearted!
Put it this way then-
The straight forward, single minded warrior always beats the conniving, complicated wizard despite the latter's superior power and resources, because something always goes wrong when you dabble in the forbidden or your plans have too many moving parts. This is Fantasy Narrative 101. If you don't believe me, ask Zombra to ask you to ask me.
 

Sarathiour

Cipher
Joined
Jun 7, 2020
Messages
3,266
If you're arguing semantic she's also probably closer to a sorcerer than a wizard.

Talking about anime in the crpg section is decline anyway.
 

Absinthe

Arcane
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
That is because casters are thought of as the ace in the hole. The warrior is the one who tends to do the heavy lifting which is why they can fight all day long.
That's a viable method of maintaining party roles, but then you can't have mages constantly throwing big magic at everything every fight. If your mage can just effortlessly recover magic and has at-will magic powers to blast enemies with, then the humanoid artillery is also the super archer and superman in general. Making mages a game of resource management and tactical deployment only works if you actually constrain resources and give people real incentive to fight tactically. But part of the problem with that approach is that it's difficult for players to predict how many fights you'll have left or what you'll be up against next and if you misjudge how many resources you need you end up out of magic right at the moment a boss fight or some ugly battle happens. But you can implement limited recovery items for that, especially on lower difficulties.

Anyway shitposting aside, the problem with trying to balance too much between might and magic is that you end up with D&D 4th edition, with everyclass having a very close kit, and everything feeel the same.
No, that's the problem with thinking fantasy RPG balance has to be done in D&D-ish ways, which is a fucking curse that has haunted western RPGs far too much. D&D is the fucking Skyrim of tabletop systems. And 4E's problem wasn't balancing but trying to standardize gameplay mechanics for all classes, resulting in making classes feel the same. The other problem is the stupidity of people who think balancing necessarily means homogenizing. Asymmetrical balance is a thing and party balance is more about making sure certain classes aren't trivially overshadowed at their own job, that they have something useful to contribute, than trying to make sure everyone can accomplish every task equally.
 
Last edited:

Pulse

Educated
Joined
May 11, 2022
Messages
82
Anyway shitposting aside, the problem with trying to balance too much between might and magic is that you end up with D&D 4th edition, with everyclass having a very close kit, and everything feeel the same.
No, that's the problem with thinking fantasy RPG balance has to be done in D&D-ish ways, which is a fucking curse that has haunted western RPGs far too much. D&D is the fucking Skyrim of tabletop systems. And 4E's problem wasn't balancing but trying to standardize gameplay mechanics for all classes, resulting in making classes feel the same. The other problem is the stupidity of people who think balancing necessarily means homogenizing. Asymmetrical balance is a thing and party balance is more about making sure certain classes aren't trivially overshadowed at their own job, that they have something useful to contribute, than trying to make sure everyone can accomplish every task equally.


I like this thought, yes balancing something doesn't have to be about making everything play the same. This is just...the easy way a developer can program it, but it's also boring. Balancing a game where every class is different and plays differently is obviously going to be harder, but probably worth it. And if we are talking about a single player game, one doesn't have to achieve perfect balance either. It's ok if one class is a little stronger in the endgame than the others.
 

Saravan

Savant
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
926
As you can see, discussing magic inevitably devolves into comparisons to degenerate anime. Typical of non-martial enjoyers.
 

anvi

Prophet
Village Idiot
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
7,554
Location
Kelethin
Yeah? How?

Lots of weird ways that all somehow worked out. It had to be balanced in 3 ways at the same time, players vs enemies in the game, players vs players if they fight each other, and players vs enemies but comparing each class against each other. Each class had to be 'desirable' to play and to have in a group, but they were all wildly different so it seemed impossible to balance but it somehow mostly worked out well.

For players vs players the spell casters are so frail they die in seconds if hit. Tanky types don't have spells but can resist a lot of spells, and they can bash and stun which interrupts spell casting. Also spell casters can't cast spells while moving they had to stand still, and if you stand still another character can just hack you to death in a few seconds. So you had to run away and then snare them or roots to hold them in place to keep some distance, cast some spells, and then be ready for when the snare breaks randomly. Healers did ok because they have a healing spell that pulses every few seconds for a minute or so. So they can cast that on themselves and then go hit the other guy and use stuns, smite, etc. And the long lasting healing spell will protect them for a while. Mages so frail, but had a spell called shadowstep which randomly teleported you about 50 foot in any direction. Great way of falling off a cliff to your death, but sometimes you ended up in some trees or something and could slip away =) Mages can go invisible which helps too.

For players vs game enemies, it balanced because most of the enemies were designed for full party of 6 people. So they are really tough and come in large groups and help each other out and stuff. So magic had the freedom to be pretty powerful, because the fights were all brutal. So you could rain fire or lightning, charm enemies to become your controllable pets, make stuff run in fear, hold stuff in place, put stuff to sleep, slow their attacks, drain their mana, cripple their strength, etc. So you had powerful abilities but with tough fights you needed them. And spells used mana which took ages to recover so you couldn't just go around blasting everything. It might be better to use a low level spell that just reduces the enemy's armor class a bit, then let your pet beat it up. But know when to unleash mayhem when it's needed. And spells take a long time to cast, like 6 seconds which in the chaos seems like a long time. In that time some characters can land a lot of melee attacks and do plenty of damage, so things mostly balance out.

The classes varied drastically in damage output and sometimes people whined about it, but the balance was in other ways. Like a Necromancer couldn't nuke as hard as a Wizard but he had a pet and could feign dying to fool enemies and stuff. Enchanters sucked at damage but they were kind of gods of the game, being able to save everyone time with faster mana regeneration and they could put entire rooms full of enemies to sleep. Sometimes it put themselves to sleep at the same time, and they'd die in sad/hilarious ways, but it mostly balanced out =) That was my favorite class of all, they were known for charming an enemy to make it your pet, and eventually they got Dire Charm which kept it as your pet permanently. I used to charm this really badass crocodile and my friend was a Cleric who buffed the crock up with Heroism and Strength and stuff, and we'd go out and slaughter stuff with our roided up pet Crocky.

That game really should be studied or something. Jenga champion of game design.
 
Last edited:

Zombra

An iron rock in the river of blood and evil
Patron
Joined
Jan 12, 2004
Messages
11,582
Location
Black Goat Woods !@#*%&^
Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I like this thought, yes balancing something doesn't have to be about making everything play the same. This is just...the easy way a developer can program it, but it's also boring. Balancing a game where every class is different and plays differently is obviously going to be harder, but probably worth it. And if we are talking about a single player game, one doesn't have to achieve perfect balance either. It's ok if one class is a little stronger in the endgame than the others.
Welcome to the Codex.
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
14,875
Location
Frostfell
degenerate anime

Western comics :


Manga/Anime :


------------------

Jokes aside, Anime/Manga is way less degenerate than western entertainment. I can enjoy Vinland Saga way more than the Afro Lesbian Jarl Woman in the new netflix Vikings. People did mentioned Thulsa doom, Conan, LoTR, and so on in this thread and only started to talk about anime recently, anime casters tends to be even more powerful than typical western wizards. Dark Schneider from Bastard!! is ludicrous powerful.

she's not mage, just fighter with some magic support.

Considering how her power comes from the blood of a Ice demon, she is closer to a Warlock.

Casters aren't uncommon in anime, but Wizard style "power via study" casters are very rare in anime.
 

Sykar

Arcane
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
11,297
Location
Turn right after Alpha Centauri
Mage vs warrior:
hqdefault.jpg

:happytrollboy:
she's not mage, just fighter with some magic support.

She uses melee to parry and probe her enemies unless they are weaker than her then she also uses it to toy with them. Her real power comes from all the ice shards, pillars and spears she throws at the enemy on top of creating massive ice walls to divide enemies up. Oh and literally freezing time as her trump card. But yeah just a warrior with a little magic support. :lol:
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
14,875
Location
Frostfell
Mage vs warrior:
hqdefault.jpg

:happytrollboy:
she's not mage, just fighter with some magic support.

She uses melee to parry and probe her enemies unless they are weaker than her then she also uses it to toy with them. Her real power comes from all the ice shards, pillars and spears she throws at the enemy on top of creating massive ice walls to divide enemies up. Oh and literally freezing time as her trump card. But yeah just a warrior with a little magic support. :lol:

And her greatest power is to freeze time which is equivalent to a 9th tier spell in D&D. But she can only use one time per day.

A more melee oriented Cryomancer is subzero from MK.

 

Humbaba

Arcane
Joined
Aug 12, 2021
Messages
2,940
Location
SADAT HQ
And her greatest power is to freeze time which is equivalent to a 9th tier spell in D&D. But she can only use one time per day.

A more melee oriented Cryomancer is subzero from MK.



Including monks is cheating, they're hybrids.
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
14,875
Location
Frostfell
Firearms are "op" against almost everything. Some targets just require a bigger gun. Don't be retarded to use 9mm in a elephant hunting. You need at least .375 h&h(not confuse with .357 magnum).

As for magic hatred :
  • Warrior throwing an javelin = ok
  • Water mage in g3 casting ice spear = awesome button
That is the logic of many people in codex.
 
Last edited:

ERYFKRAD

Barbarian
Patron
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
28,389
Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Water mage in g3 casting ice spear = awesome button
All the water mage has to do is a few deep breaths and he can throw more ice spears
You can run out of javelins. What the fuck are you even comparing here. Hell the javelin itself is something that will not be used often by most close combatants.
 

Cryomancer

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
14,875
Location
Frostfell
Water mage in g3 casting ice spear = awesome button
All the water mage has to do is a few deep breaths and he can throw more ice spears
You can run out of javelins. What the fuck are you even comparing here. Hell the javelin itself is something that will not be used often by most close combatants.

In Gothic series(I don't count ArcaniA as Gothic), you have no passive mana regen, except in very late game of G3. With the base mana, you can throw 3 fully charged ice lances.... Anyway, does you tribe hates magical weapons too?
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom