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He does indeed have the Big Gay, and despite all of his furious butthurt I have yet to understand how and why Kingmaker has become his personal bugbear.
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Pathfinder Why Owlcat's Kingmaker Sucks, in Plain Language
- Thread starter Gregz
- Start date
Gregz
Arcane
Meanwhile, in the real world:
No need to go back to two days ago.
No need to go back to two days ago.
Gregz
Arcane
shadowfax88
Barely Literate
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2020
- Messages
- 1
The OP has many legit points.
The biggest issue I have with this game is its QA problems. Being a small studio, Owlcat has really suffered from issues like bugs and lack of consideration for user experience.
For example, even till this day, the game still has some items whose special effects do not work. Nature's Wrath trident (sold by Issil at HATEOT) does not proc lightning vulnerability on hit. Black Star starknife is supposed to proc EITHER crushing despair, slay living OR confusion (one of them) on crit, yet in game when crit it procs all three at the same time, and the slay living ability forces the player to choose a target just like active casting, which basically uses up the next round. It is a good thing that the devs are still working hard to fix these bugs though.
Another example is the complete mess in character building UI - compare this to POE 2 for example, or every other RPG game. What players need is a clear screen where skills / talents and their effects (in terms of stats change and special effects) are clearly shown in the same page in a wholistic manner. This is not implemented in PFK. One has to maintain a speadsheet outside the game in order to keep track of all the feats / BAB etc because when building the character, he's blocked off from seeing which feats he can pick vs their effects, quite unnecessarily due to implementation oversight.
Some game design features should have been more thoughtful. For example in Kingdom Management, as many have rightly pointed out, many buildings are completely useless. Why do we still have them in the game? The biggest reward is from upgrading your kingdom stats and get masterpiece related objectives completely done asap. From very early on, this set of "real objectives" encourage intentional stalling as the only viable tactic if one is on Hard or higher difficulties, because each masterpiece can be quite crucial to the end game. In my playthroughs, I try to stall chapter advancement as much as possible, just to rank up kingdom stats and roll more artisan gifts. This takes up a few hours of play time every chapter, and is a boring chore no one really enjoys.
However on the other hand, a lot of efforts have been poured into the game by the devs - it has rich and complex contents, be it main plot or side quests. Boss designs are great. So are items and skills.
Truth be told, to this day the game is still kind of in a "diamond in the rough" state. Just think about this: in Steam Global Achievement ladder only 0.7% of players have beaten the "real" ending of Tenebrous Depths. Less than 1%. Many many players have been discouraged by all these issues which unnecessarily stopped them from enjoying the game in its completeness. How many could have asked for refund / told their friends not to play it? It is a pitty.
The biggest issue I have with this game is its QA problems. Being a small studio, Owlcat has really suffered from issues like bugs and lack of consideration for user experience.
For example, even till this day, the game still has some items whose special effects do not work. Nature's Wrath trident (sold by Issil at HATEOT) does not proc lightning vulnerability on hit. Black Star starknife is supposed to proc EITHER crushing despair, slay living OR confusion (one of them) on crit, yet in game when crit it procs all three at the same time, and the slay living ability forces the player to choose a target just like active casting, which basically uses up the next round. It is a good thing that the devs are still working hard to fix these bugs though.
Another example is the complete mess in character building UI - compare this to POE 2 for example, or every other RPG game. What players need is a clear screen where skills / talents and their effects (in terms of stats change and special effects) are clearly shown in the same page in a wholistic manner. This is not implemented in PFK. One has to maintain a speadsheet outside the game in order to keep track of all the feats / BAB etc because when building the character, he's blocked off from seeing which feats he can pick vs their effects, quite unnecessarily due to implementation oversight.
Some game design features should have been more thoughtful. For example in Kingdom Management, as many have rightly pointed out, many buildings are completely useless. Why do we still have them in the game? The biggest reward is from upgrading your kingdom stats and get masterpiece related objectives completely done asap. From very early on, this set of "real objectives" encourage intentional stalling as the only viable tactic if one is on Hard or higher difficulties, because each masterpiece can be quite crucial to the end game. In my playthroughs, I try to stall chapter advancement as much as possible, just to rank up kingdom stats and roll more artisan gifts. This takes up a few hours of play time every chapter, and is a boring chore no one really enjoys.
However on the other hand, a lot of efforts have been poured into the game by the devs - it has rich and complex contents, be it main plot or side quests. Boss designs are great. So are items and skills.
Truth be told, to this day the game is still kind of in a "diamond in the rough" state. Just think about this: in Steam Global Achievement ladder only 0.7% of players have beaten the "real" ending of Tenebrous Depths. Less than 1%. Many many players have been discouraged by all these issues which unnecessarily stopped them from enjoying the game in its completeness. How many could have asked for refund / told their friends not to play it? It is a pitty.
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2019
- Messages
- 14,815
I’d say somewhere around 99.5% of functional bugs have been fixed. (Too) slow but steady.
I enjoy the KM and know others who do too. No need to stall (other than one quest in ch 2). The real timer is Bald Hilltop and it is independent of player actions. The challenge is in maximizing the amount of time spent in rank-ups (minimizing rest and travel time) and you’re richly rewarded for managing it well. Almost entirely carrot, not stick, which is a brilliant improvement on previous rest management in other games.
The UI info is all there, if not always intuitive.
I enjoy the KM and know others who do too. No need to stall (other than one quest in ch 2). The real timer is Bald Hilltop and it is independent of player actions. The challenge is in maximizing the amount of time spent in rank-ups (minimizing rest and travel time) and you’re richly rewarded for managing it well. Almost entirely carrot, not stick, which is a brilliant improvement on previous rest management in other games.
The UI info is all there, if not always intuitive.
PK is too big for its own good. Project was obviously mismanaged. I sometimes doubt they even wrote a list of weapons they want to put in the game, although funny enough, even experienced managers like Sawyer with trusted QA crew failed at first with same mistake and overlooked his Sabre to Spear ratios and even whole difficulty mods for example. However, Owlcats did it because their hearts were obviously at the right place when making games - they wanted biggest rpg they could make, with all the stuff they wanted, to make their first game just like one of those old RPGs they love, which for the most part, all were in same way large, diamonds in rough, bugged, and often unbalanced, but still inspire developers today. Sure they bitten more they could chew, but if you were in their place, would you really do differently and not overdo it, with money and powerful PnP system there to back you up?
Only people who really enjoy those are combatfags and they're a minority in current era of RPGs which for a long time were on a road of becoming a casualised genre.
if instead it was just a solid expansion dungeon with some plot thrown in and an extra romanceable companion, numbers would probably be different instead of 0.7%
Like 1.7%.
The dungeon is just repetetive combat encounters, there isn't much in terms of story or custom made content made for it, and "real ending" is hidden behind a bit of JRPG rng due to ability to fail perception checks and miss critical items very easily. Even hardcore rpg players miss them.
Only people who really enjoy those are combatfags and they're a minority in current era of RPGs which for a long time were on a road of becoming a casualised genre.
if instead it was just a solid expansion dungeon with some plot thrown in and an extra romanceable companion, numbers would probably be different instead of 0.7%
Like 1.7%.
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Considering how few people finish games in general, can't imagine how few completed a 150 hour long CRPG that starts feeling like a slog halfway through that time.
Also my completion doesn't count because I play on the prestigious DRM free GOG version.
Also my completion doesn't count because I play on the prestigious DRM free GOG version.
gunman
Arcane
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2008
- Messages
- 1,050
The problem with the Tenebrous real ending is not perception checks, but illogical condition (killing boss before finding required "lore" item breaks the quest), and the configuration of last boss' dungeon can easily guide you into the room of the boss before the getting the prerequisite item, which is placed deeper in the dungeon. The devs should definitely rethink this quest, as it is neither a puzzle nor a skill check challenge, but it either requires pure luck or meta knowledge.
A player can see all universal feats during the level up. Full stop.
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But you have to click a button conveniently labeled show unavailable feats.
Technomancer
Liturgist
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2018
- Messages
- 1,520
Did anyone found any of those in story? The first one seems especially broken for a CHA necrosorc I'm playing.
https://pathfinderkingmaker.gamepedia.com/Dead_Man's_Hat
https://pathfinderkingmaker.gamepedia.com/Morbid_Stare
https://pathfinderkingmaker.gamepedia.com/Crown_of_Fear
Or thats just dungeon stuff? Also wrong thread
https://pathfinderkingmaker.gamepedia.com/Dead_Man's_Hat
https://pathfinderkingmaker.gamepedia.com/Morbid_Stare
https://pathfinderkingmaker.gamepedia.com/Crown_of_Fear
Or thats just dungeon stuff? Also wrong thread
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I don't recall seeing any of these in the campaign.
Shitty Kitty
Self-Ejected
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2020
- Messages
- 556
"Hey Player, you should go see what that little gnome bastard Tartuccio is up to."
"ok but I've got some other th-"
"DO IT NOW. LIMITED TIME."
"ok."
"Uh oh, looks like Tartuccio's disappeared down this abandoned mineshaft! You should chase after him!"
"Fuck you, there are probably spiders and shit down there and I don't even have a fucking cleric, never mind a decent stock of antidotes."
"DO IT."
"Fine, there had better be lootable antidotes."
*ten minutes later*
"There are no fucking lootable antidotes down here. Fuck you."
"ok but I've got some other th-"
"DO IT NOW. LIMITED TIME."
"ok."
"Uh oh, looks like Tartuccio's disappeared down this abandoned mineshaft! You should chase after him!"
"Fuck you, there are probably spiders and shit down there and I don't even have a fucking cleric, never mind a decent stock of antidotes."
"DO IT."
"Fine, there had better be lootable antidotes."
*ten minutes later*
"There are no fucking lootable antidotes down here. Fuck you."
Desmodus Rotundus
Augur
The RNG is as broken as a whipped cream chastity belt in an orgy. Enemies flat out refuse to roll single digit numbers to hit, unless it's the end of combat and I'm mopping up and they have no chance to take out anyone anymore. In fact, if they're attacking my tank and need at least 15-16 to hit her, they rarely roll anything under that. At the same time my party usually starts fights with a slew of single digit rolls, with a few pity double digit ones thrown in. It's especially noticeable with my ranger, who usually has to roll over 4-5 often just don't roll ones, and she still manages to miss quite a lot. In fact thanx to my heavy hitters often needing to roll only 2 to hit I see a baffling amount of ones in this game. It also tends to cluster same rolls for any sort of aoe effects/spells.
As far as RNG is concerned, I'd rather play Mordheim.
As far as RNG is concerned, I'd rather play Mordheim.
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2019
- Messages
- 14,815
You get the Cleric when you chase Tartuccio. More time learning and less time bragging about how much you suck.
Shitty Kitty
Self-Ejected
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2020
- Messages
- 556
That was on a first, blind playthrough and it did NOT give me a positive impression. The spiders detected my rogue every time (they probably have Tremorsense), when I tried to pull individual spiders away from other spiders with bow shots they group aggro'd, and somehow EVERYONE EXCEPT LINZI FAILED EVERY FUCKING SAVE AGAINST POISON, NOT THAT LINZI BEING OK MATTERED BECAUSE EVERY SPELL SHE THREW GOT SAVED AGAINST. THE BARBARIAN FAILED SAVES AGAINST POISON. HOW.
Delterius
Arcane
why is everyone except linzi tanking spiders
Shitty Kitty
Self-Ejected
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2020
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- 556
Why would I not keep that fighter and the barbarian (and summons) between me/Linzi and the spiders? They're the ones with good Fort saves, and at the time I was a Rogue/Wizard so there is NO REASON for me to be front and center. Not that it mattered.
So you played a wizard who could not CC spiders?
OK, I guess...
OK, I guess...
Shitty Kitty
Self-Ejected
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2020
- Messages
- 556
They just didn't stick. Ever. Sleep? NOPE. Think I tried Color Spray too, and that failed miserably. I have never seen dice fuck me that hard before.
Delterius
Arcane
tbh just let valerie tank most of the time and you'll only eat some of the poison effects tbqh
I also played a Wizard and didn't even bother to Grease the spiders.
A former Soviet person would have compared the DC of the spell against the saving throw of spiders which is shown in the log. Also, s/he would have checked for immunities (like, spiders are immune to Web - imagine that).
But, I guess, you're a progressive Westerner, so... OK.
Yeah, magic on them is hit or miss. The game gives you tons of AoE bombs or whatever to throw though, which works alright. The only time I had trouble with an AoE required enemy was a certain boss late in the game.
Shitty Kitty
Self-Ejected
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2020
- Messages
- 556
I didn't use Web, fuckwit. My spell list was Sleep, Color Spray, Grease (which did slow them down for... one fight), Summon Monster I and a couple others plus cantrips. I doubt they had more than 4 HD, I know spiders aren't immune to mind-affecting, and my spell DCs should have been decent given my INT score.
I noticed that pretty much every ranged attack missed. Guessing low light was causing a malus on attack rolls in spots.
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