"Win an argument"? Really? Where do you think you are, your high school's debate club? This is the internet my friend, and no one ever wins those here. No, I'm doing this for my own amusement and, hopefully, for the spectators' amusement as well. Still, you have my thanks for providing some concrete examples of the specific areas you think casters are superior so I can finally respond. So:
Cute comeback. But determining right and wrong is a key component of arguing on the internet, son. Maybe you're used to arguments being little more than running your mouth, but some of us like to actually get somewhere and establish some points with them. And people do win and lose arguments on the internet. Happens all the time, really.
"have your Wizard craft magic items": Are you for fucking real? Your first example for caster superiority is having the caster waste feats and slave for fucking months to craft equipment that can simply be bought? I don't know about you, but I don't play RPGs to pretend at being an indentured craftsman. But still, assuming a DM sees this as a problem and wants to stop it, the solution isn't "random encounters, lol". It's time pressure. While the party fucks around crafting gear instead of slaying monsters, the bad guys are advancing their plan unopposed, a plan generally detrimental to the world's wellbeing. Can't really blame you for not encountering this at tabletop though, many DMs are shitty and just put the bad guys in stasis while the party does whatever. See my previous point about the world working like Diablo.
Actually it's more to circumvent any restrictions your GM might put in against you just buying the items you want, especially if you want items that are intended for higher level characters than yourself. For instance, if you feel like crafting Candles of Invocation at level 4 so you can spam Gate for less than half the price of actually casting it yourself long before you reach level 17. Pretty handy. It can also give your Cleric access to spells as if he were 2 levels higher but usually you just Gate a spellcaster with 9th level spells or whatever. And then your time pressure evaporates because someone decided to summon superman to run roughshod over your campaign and make himself rich enough to craft more candles.
"cross a broken bridge": The wizard wastes a 3rd level slot, more if the entire party must cross this way. The fighter throws a rope and crosses without expending any resources other than time. Who did a better job bypassing the obstacle, again?
This wasn't a serious argument of spellcaster supremacy. It was an example of how overboard some shitty DMs get with their idea of "consequences" for not doing things the way they want, however benign.
"There are plenty of times when bad DMs do weird passive-aggressive stuff": Yes, many DMs are shitty. I understand now your psychological problems stem from abuse suffered at the hands of shitty DMs, probably at a tender age. Don't worry, we can help you. Just show us on the doll where the bad DM touched you, and we can start the healing process.
No son. I was pointing out how your "DM should fix it with in-campaign consequences" argument easily lends itself to stupid behavior, especially when you advocate it as a solution for huge problems that aren't so easily fixed.
Proof of what? You think this disproves the fact that animal companions can dominate at the Fighter's role for you? It doesn't.
Proof that you're full of shit when you say:
Open map and press I while hovering the animal companion.
Can't blame you for forgetting, it was only a few hours ago.
Old bug got fixed. I'm not seeing the "Gotcha!" shit you're trying to pull.
"My anecdotal evidence" as opposed to your peer-reviewed, double-blind studies, right? And you are, as usual, misinterpreting my point. There are, undeniably, balance issues in the rules as written, especially when interpreted autistically to your favor. But those balance issues are either wildly overblown by retarded forum theorycrafters, or easily shut down by a competent DM applying a modicum of common sense. As for your specific examples:
As opposed to my detailing of specific mechanical faults, your anecdotal evidence rather resembles an ostrich burying its head in the sand.
"Dazing spell, Authoritative spell": Retarded powercreep that aims to sell more and more rulebooks to autistic wannabe powergamers like you is 3.5's and PF's single greatest flaw. It can, however, easily be shut down by the DM simply saying "no". I suppose that makes me a bad, controlling DM that refuses his players the freedom to break the game, but so be it. I've managed so far, I will continue managing in the future.
No, that is definitely shit you
should ban, for sanity's sake, along with probably Cherry Blossom Spell and Familiar Spell (which tends to be a lot like Quicken metamagic on steroids), but it's a mark against the system that they put out obscene bullshit like this. Also, I'm pretty sure a lot of this wasn't intentional powercreep but Paizo being too stupid to realize what they were doing.
"Simulacrum, animate dead, fear, fabricate, Planar Ally/Binding/etc, Summon monster/nature's ally, Dominate Person abuse": Have you ever actually used these to break a game? They all have practical difficulties that get glossed over in forum discussions but sink the tactic in practice.
What's your clever solution, attempting to deny people the resources to cast the spells in the first place? Don't leave us in suspense here. If you have good solutions, name 'em, instead of blustering how you totally have answers for all of this that don't resemble indirect attempts at bans.
And, of course, an unimaginative DM can always tell the offending player "Congratulations, you've won this cooperative game. Now, do you want to play like a normal human being so we can continue having fun, or should we kick you out?"
So yes, they do break the game, and you have to demand a gentleman's agreement or otherwise kick people out whenever they do this shit in order to avert these problems. Again, a mark against the system.
"getting clever with illusions": L O L, just how stupid have the DMs you've played with been that they can't deal with fucking illusions?
Is the solution to suddenly redo encounters to be comprised of shit too smart or otherwise with all kinds of unusual senses? Illusions can make a mess of things, when applied with a sufficient degree of cleverness. But I will grant you there are ways to deal with that one.
"Color Spray Oracle": A will-save, mind-affecting spell is your example of abuse? Really? Do you even know how many other high-level will-save spells you could be using that don't require you to build around removing their limits?
Yes, but those are high-level spells. Everyone accepts that a spellcaster will "win" the game with high level spells. The funny thing is that they claim it won't happen at early levels. Color Spray Oracle's nuisance factor is being bullshit whenever it applies from level 2. And then you as the GM probably "cleverly" respond by redoing all your encounters to be immune and whatnot because that is not at all a sign that a certain stunt might be busted. And like I noted later, nothing obligates you to make color spray the only bullshit up your Oracle's sleeves.
"Spamming divinations all day": First, boy I sure am glad no campaign has ever had some sort of time pressure that would prevent you from wasting multiple days like that. And second, what the actual fuck? Divination has so many restrictions that it's absolutely trivial to avoid fessing up "everything you want to know about the campaign".
And there are a lot of different types of divinations and ways to use specific information to make wider inferences. So your new solution is constant time pressure with no days off ever and probably constant combat and no days spent traveling either and hope to run the spellcaster dry so he doesn't cast divinations throughout the campaign. That's getting into bullshit "consequences" territory where you're basically trying to indirectly ban something with suspiciously tailored consequences for attempting to do so. Generally the solutions to divinations are gentleman's agreements, a ban, or lying (another "clever" solution).
"abusing teleportation": Teleportation existing means that the party's travel time drops to zero across familiar places past a certain point, and unfamiliar ones later on. Any DM who does not account for that and lets it "fuck a lot of things" is a complete moron.
It's with unfamiliar places where it gets stupid. Scry and die was the most famous stunt here. There's also the part where your party can choose to spend every night at the mage's personal mansion. And that's not counting the silliness of plane shifting an enemy (but this will cost you loot). But even with familiar places there are loads of ways teleportation can get used to bring friends (by which I'm not referring to party members) and avail yourself of amenities around the world whenever you please.
And it is very easy to have multiple tricks up your sleeves at the same time (absolutely nothing is stopping a Color Spray Oracle from also being a Summon Monster and animate dead abuser that also knows one or two divinations to spam silly, for instance). Just a Druid deciding to earth glide past past a dungeon and collapse the way behind the party can shit on PF with a vengeance. And that's not even including the fact that there are tons of spells for social situations and treasure hunts and whatever the fuck that the mundane types get virtually nothing to compete in.
Remember how I said that caster supremacists assume they'll always know the right spell AND have it prepared AND never run out of slots, while the stupid martials just sit around with their thumbs up their asses and never use silly things like skills, maneuvers or items? This is the perfect quote to demonstrate that. Again, thank you.
Oh good. I didn't know the Oracle was a prepared caster. Oh wait, you're a dumbass. Now that we're done exchanging stupid cheap shots, let's get back to the point shall we? Nothing stops the Oracle from having multiple types of bullshit on his list of spells known at the same time. What was your complaint supposed to be? Not enough daily spells? The Oracle doesn't need to create undead every day. He can just make his strongest undead and heal them afterwards. Casting color spray and summon monster hardly competes for spell slots either. One uses high level slots, the other uses low level slots. Or was the complaint that there is some kind of special preparation to being able to use the right Wild Shape as a Druid? Ah, there isn't. But if you want to always know the right spell, you can prestige into Loremaster and take Secret of Magical Discipline feats so you can spontaneously cast any spell in the game by giving up an equal level prepared spell or spell slot. Or play a Spell Sage Wizard. Or a bunch of other dumb shit because Pathfinder just prints that. Even out of the box a Wizard with an arcane bond can spontaneously cast any spell in his spellbook once per day, although usually you go for the familiar for its perks, like breaking action economy.
Oh boy, a list of suspiciously vague accusations, what a surprise. Do go on about what points I've gotten "entirely wrong" or misinterpreted so horribly. Give the specifics. Name 'em, son. Somehow I suspect you're not going to manage it, though.
But please, do go on about how there are no issues with PF and the game is totally balanced. Please.
Just a single example. Do you want me to pull every quote where you've ignored or misinterpreted someone else's point and acted all smug about it you miserable fuck, or is this enough?
That's not even me making a point, dumbass. Keep going, son. Your need to immediately call it quits at a single lazy example of me just saying out your defense of Pathfinder is stupid and that you're going full fucking selective perception on the game's problems sure is telling about the depth of your repertoire. But hey, you hedged your bets somewhere by saying "PF is far from perfect." Except the thing is, it doesn't prove fuck-all when it comes to you trying so hard to downplay all the actual issues with the game we were talking about. You try to act like spellcaster supremacy is not an actual thing in PF, except it is. Big time.
I've made my position clear and no one here has done fuck-all to disprove it. At most I've seen a nitpick on whether animal companions can equip items in the computer game. You seem to have a different take, so let's have it. Give the details, pal. I doubt you can.
You seem agitated. Might I ask why?
It ain't agitation, son. It's me pointing out you're full of hot air and you proving it through your inability to back up your words. So I was right. You ain't got shit.
No man. I started the argument pointing out Kingdom Building rules are Paizo's invention, not Owlcat's
You know, I'd missed that the first time around. Thanks for stating it again. And I say thanks because
it's not true. Yes, the original PnP adventure path had kingdom building rules. Yes, the computer game has kingdom building rules. But these rules are not the same at all. Under Paizo's rules, kingdoms only had three stats and a dozen different advisors that affected these stats, the world map was divided in hexes you had to claim one by one, and the mechanics of what these stats did and how events worked were different as well. The only similarity is the city grid and how the buildings work, and it's not a coincidence it's the crappiest part of Owlcat's implementation. And there were no Artisans in the original path, THE biggest incentive for doing well at kingdom management in the game.
Anyone who's actually played the game and either played or read the tabletop AP would know this. Which makes me absolutely certain you haven't, and are simply regurgitating the idiocy you've read elsewhere.
Nah, I'll give you this one. You're right about this much. I haven't. I just remember looking through the kingdom building rules in the past and seeing what a mess they were. I was pretty sure Owlcat lifted it closely but I guess not. The artisans were obviously an Owlcat addition, of course.
You are absolutely right. And the most important of those can, and should, be used in a tabletop campaign as well. Attrition and loot availability alone can do wonders to stop casters from raining on the martial's parade.
Not as much as you'd like. Most parties tend to call it quits when their spellcaster is out of spells and try to rest for the day. Loot availability isn't really a factor in regular PnP especially when you let people have item creation feats. Spellcasters are pretty much the least item-dependent classes in the game. And a lot of what the cRPG does revolves around severely inflated stats, tons of new immunities, and a highly limited selection of spells, feats, archetypes, etc. for the player characters in addition to a lot of nerfs left and right.
sirocco ok op
weirdo - only good for overleveling as solo
fear, what, it's hd based? and monsters running around aggoring everything is not p good I played pure necro it's only good in rogue dungeon (although Shaken is good ofc)
No, that's Cause Fear and Scare. Fear has no cap and fear conditions escalate iirc so even on a resist you can frighten shit with it for a turn if it was already shaken, provided it's not immune.
invisibility is penned by wh?
enervation doesn't even work on bosses for whatever reason when you really want it.
Yeah, they got limits, but they're about as far as a Wizard should dig into being a damage dealer usually.
No, like Improved Initiative, the Augment Summons, Superior Summoning
ok you gotta be kidding me here with this shit. Initiative is good for TB in particular, but summong feats? what difficulty are we playing here, easy-normal for that to matter in any way? combat casting?? spell spec - yeah maybe. spell penetration - ever tried to go like through golem or 50 of it? I mean you said yourself - just use irlene wand etc.
Granted, Combat Casting and Spell Penetration was a bit scraping the barrel there. I mean you can try to do Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Spell Specialization, and Elf to get +8 to try overcoming SR but usually you don't want to bother. As for summons, that's gonna require a combination of debuffing and buffing to try to do shit.
Summons make decent meatshields and flanking buddies at the least and with the right combinations of buffs and debuffs they do put in work.
kmon dude, a little bit too much scrapping the bottom of the barrel here, martials simply have more fun with feats in this game, be it absolutely free and broken fear that no caster could pull off which works on everything, team and tandem feats, ToEE style whirlwinding, one-punch man shit and all that.
After you pick your poison and max your DCs, your caster build usually ends. Well, that and AT dips.
Sorc bloodlines have some cool shit but featwise, casters are just not very interesting.
Eh, it does end up just being metamagic feats for the most part, granted.
Although there are ways to penalize enemies' saves by giving them stat damage/penalties and conditions like shaken, exhausted, and sickened.
Really early on you should try to stay at level 1 and just save up for a party of hirelings so you can have a non-shit party.
conductor I see a problem with how u play gaem
(but like, ok, Sadistic russian dm didn't limit amount of mercenaries depending on difficulty, it's their fault)
Custom party members are really the way to go.
because caster many times can just fall back on playing defensibly - congratulations enemy, you act first. so you be first to fall into acid pit 
