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Pathfinder Why Owlcat's Kingmaker Sucks, in Plain Language

Xamenos

Magister
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Pathfinder: Wrath
Stop with the selective reading, son. That's not how you win an argument. That's how you demonstrate your ability to act like a child. DM inventing bullshit consequences is when you do something like have your Wizard craft magic items during a campaign and your DM responds by mysteriously throwing tons of random encounters at you that only seem to happen when you try to craft anything. When your GM wants to you figure out away across a broken bridge and your Wizard decides to cast flight only to suddenly get nailed by previously invisible giant birds and insects from the sky that are content to leave everyone alone who is on land but will brutally murder the Wizard because he tried to fly past the DM's clever puzzle. There are plenty of times when bad DMs do weird passive-aggressive stuff where they blatantly don't like something you're doing and consider it an "elegant" solution to ass-pull over-the-top and suspiciously selective "consequences" instead.
"Win an argument"? Really? Where do you think you are, your high school's debate club? This is the internet my friend, and no one ever wins those here. No, I'm doing this for my own amusement and, hopefully, for the spectators' amusement as well. Still, you have my thanks for providing some concrete examples of the specific areas you think casters are superior so I can finally respond. So:

"have your Wizard craft magic items": Are you for fucking real? Your first example for caster superiority is having the caster waste feats and slave for fucking months to craft equipment that can simply be bought? I don't know about you, but I don't play RPGs to pretend at being an indentured craftsman. But still, assuming a DM sees this as a problem and wants to stop it, the solution isn't "random encounters, lol". It's time pressure. While the party fucks around crafting gear instead of slaying monsters, the bad guys are advancing their plan unopposed, a plan generally detrimental to the world's wellbeing. Can't really blame you for not encountering this at tabletop though, many DMs are shitty and just put the bad guys in stasis while the party does whatever. See my previous point about the world working like Diablo.

"cross a broken bridge": The wizard wastes a 3rd level slot, more if the entire party must cross this way. The fighter throws a rope and crosses without expending any resources other than time. Who did a better job bypassing the obstacle, again?

"There are plenty of times when bad DMs do weird passive-aggressive stuff": Yes, many DMs are shitty. I understand now your psychological problems stem from abuse suffered at the hands of shitty DMs, probably at a tender age. Don't worry, we can help you. Just show us on the doll where the bad DM touched you, and we can start the healing process.

Proof of what? You think this disproves the fact that animal companions can dominate at the Fighter's role for you? It doesn't.

Proof that you're full of shit when you say:
Open map and press I while hovering the animal companion.
Can't blame you for forgetting, it was only a few hours ago.

Ah cute, the old "my anecdotal evidence totally disproves the presence of balance issues in the game" argument. We're talking Pathfinder, yes? Dazing spell metamagic shits on PF with a vengeance. Authoritative spell metamagic shits on PF with a vengeance. Simulacrum shits on PF with a vengeance. Animate dead and undead creation spells shit on PF with a vengeance. No-save tactics of escalating fear conditions to no-save frighten enemies shits on PF with a vengeance. Using fabricate to break the economy shits on PF with a vengeance. Just getting clever with illusions can shit on a lot of PF content with a vengeance. The Color Spray Oracle shits on PF with a vengeance until high levels (although if you go out of your way to pump your charisma score, you can still end fights with Color Spray at level 15 or so). Planar Ally/Binding/etc spells shit on PF with a vengeance. Summon monster/nature's ally spells, especially when optimized, shit on PF with a vengeance. Dominate Person abuse shits on PF with a vengeance. Spamming divinations all day for multiple days to interrogate your DM for everything you want to know about the campaign shits on PF with a vengeance. Just abusing teleportation can completely fuck a lot of things too. Save or lose effects shit on PF with a vengeance too. This is not even any tricky "rules interpretation" bullshit going on. Just straightforward ownage because your shit's overpowered as fuck.

"My anecdotal evidence" as opposed to your peer-reviewed, double-blind studies, right? And you are, as usual, misinterpreting my point. There are, undeniably, balance issues in the rules as written, especially when interpreted autistically to your favor. But those balance issues are either wildly overblown by retarded forum theorycrafters, or easily shut down by a competent DM applying a modicum of common sense. As for your specific examples:

"Dazing spell, Authoritative spell": Retarded powercreep that aims to sell more and more rulebooks to autistic wannabe powergamers like you is 3.5's and PF's single greatest flaw. It can, however, easily be shut down by the DM simply saying "no". I suppose that makes me a bad, controlling DM that refuses his players the freedom to break the game, but so be it. I've managed so far, I will continue managing in the future.

"Simulacrum, animate dead, fear, fabricate, Planar Ally/Binding/etc, Summon monster/nature's ally, Dominate Person abuse": Have you ever actually used these to break a game? They all have practical difficulties that get glossed over in forum discussions but sink the tactic in practice. And, of course, an unimaginative DM can always tell the offending player "Congratulations, you've won this cooperative game. Now, do you want to play like a normal human being so we can continue having fun, or should we kick you out?"

"getting clever with illusions": L O L, just how stupid have the DMs you've played with been that they can't deal with fucking illusions?

"Color Spray Oracle": A will-save, mind-affecting spell is your example of abuse? Really? Do you even know how many other high-level will-save spells you could be using that don't require you to build around removing their limits?

"Spamming divinations all day": First, boy I sure am glad no campaign has ever had some sort of time pressure that would prevent you from wasting multiple days like that. And second, what the actual fuck? Divination has so many restrictions that it's absolutely trivial to avoid fessing up "everything you want to know about the campaign".

"abusing teleportation": Teleportation existing means that the party's travel time drops to zero across familiar places past a certain point, and unfamiliar ones later on. Any DM who does not account for that and lets it "fuck a lot of things" is a complete moron.

edit: "Save or lose effects": Fucking lol, these are possibly the weakest shit a caster can do n Pathfinder.

And it is very easy to have multiple tricks up your sleeves at the same time (absolutely nothing is stopping a Color Spray Oracle from also being a Summon Monster and animate dead abuser that also knows one or two divinations to spam silly, for instance). Just a Druid deciding to earth glide past past a dungeon and collapse the way behind the party can shit on PF with a vengeance. And that's not even including the fact that there are tons of spells for social situations and treasure hunts and whatever the fuck that the mundane types get virtually nothing to compete in.

Remember how I said that caster supremacists assume they'll always know the right spell AND have it prepared AND never run out of slots, while the stupid martials just sit around with their thumbs up their asses and never use silly things like skills, maneuvers or items? This is the perfect quote to demonstrate that. Again, thank you.

Oh boy, a list of suspiciously vague accusations, what a surprise. Do go on about what points I've gotten "entirely wrong" or misinterpreted so horribly. Give the specifics. Name 'em, son. Somehow I suspect you're not going to manage it, though.

PF is far from perfect

But please, do go on about how there are no issues with PF and the game is totally balanced. Please.

Just a single example. Do you want me to pull every quote where you've ignored or misinterpreted someone else's point and acted all smug about it you miserable fuck, or is this enough?

I've made my position clear and no one here has done fuck-all to disprove it. At most I've seen a nitpick on whether animal companions can equip items in the computer game. You seem to have a different take, so let's have it. Give the details, pal. I doubt you can.
You seem agitated. Might I ask why?

No man. I started the argument pointing out Kingdom Building rules are Paizo's invention, not Owlcat's

You know, I'd missed that the first time around. Thanks for stating it again. And I say thanks because it's not true. Yes, the original PnP adventure path had kingdom building rules. Yes, the computer game has kingdom building rules. But these rules are not the same at all. Under Paizo's rules, kingdoms only had three stats and a dozen different advisors that affected these stats, the world map was divided in hexes you had to claim one by one, and the mechanics of what these stats did and how events worked were different as well. The only similarity is the city grid and how the buildings work, and it's not a coincidence it's the crappiest part of Owlcat's implementation. And there were no Artisans in the original path, THE biggest incentive for doing well at kingdom management in the game.

Anyone who's actually played the game and either played or read the tabletop AP would know this. Which makes me absolutely certain you haven't, and are simply regurgitating the idiocy you've read elsewhere.
 

Absinthe

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4,062
let me point out some stuff here as well

you're not obligated to always cast your highest level of spells so this issue tends to be much smaller at higher levels

low level spells aren't hot on beating DCs, which is why Heighten spell is most common thing you use
There are also spells that don't involve DCs or still do a bunch when resisted (like Sirroco and Fear), as well as the usual buffs and shit. It's a common mistake in PF to focus too much on spells that require saving throws. Later on greater invisibility + maximized enervations are a pretty lazy way to do in enemies.

they can get more DC, get some cheesy rods. martials multiply weapons they gain to get absurd amounts of sustained damage, and that's just the basics.
With the right DCs you can end fights in a single spellcast. Very directly if you are doing a weirdo phantasmal killer build, but conditions like nauseated, staggered, blind, etc. also tend to make jokes out of fights.

You mention Wisps as a threat that negates spellcasters, but you've got it completely backwards. Spellcasters negate Wisps
you mean a single scroll bought negates wisps. it's even a better deal since you can memorise more damage spells or whatever.
Actually the scroll is much worse than casting it, since the scroll has a much worse duration and only gives you 10 energy resist against the energy type of choice. If you cast it yourself it can give 20 or later 30 resist against the energy type of choice while having a much better duration too, especially if you throw in a lesser metamagic rod of extend spell or two. But early on a scroll will probably do good work for you. Really early on you should try to stay at level 1 and just save up for a party of hirelings so you can have a non-shit party. After level 1 the price of hirelings goes to shit because of the horrible formula to calculate costs that Owlcat is using.

Wizards can also shapeshift into monsters themselves
all these spells are more or less shit without particular loltroll trip octavia builds or whatever. close to useless on pure caster. on the other hand, martials/hybrids/tanks can actually make it good.
Like I said, it requires some build support to be good. Although Sylvan Sorcerer casting shapeshifting spells and maybe Transformation on his animal companion is a different story. That gets dumb fast. Throwing Mage Armor on your animal companion is strongly advised too. If you really want it to have the AC you can throw a Shield on it too.

Teamwork feats are good but it's not like Wizards are lacking for decent feat options
like spell focus and spell focus 2?
spellcaster feats are very mediocre, and I played all of em. literally played every caster specialist except Diviner lmao. you basically take a bunch of spell foci and an metamagic of your choice to micromanage your spellbook and fap furiously on moar DC. martials have way more interesting feat trees by far. hell I'd say squeezing extra damage from martial is more interesting BECAUSE the ceiling is that much HIGHER.
No, like Improved Initiative, the Augment Summons, Superior Summoning (if you go summoner though... a Bard party member with Inspire Courage and Good Hope is mandatory). Summons are not as ridiculous as they are in the PnP though. Definitely helps to cast summons with a maximize or quicken rod. You can also get metamagics, raise Perception, get Combat Casting, Spell Specialization, Spell Penetration, and shit. If you really want you can use Arcane Armor training to be an armored Wizard I suppose. There's also grabbing Shake It Off, I suppose.

Furthermore, there are plenty of casters (like Clerics, Druids, Inquisitors, Magi, Vivisectionist Alchemists, etc.) that can be played as martials themselves
magi and vivi is only ones which do not die. druid can tank but can't do any damage in melee.
Well, there are ways to buff damage (inspire courage, destruction domain, greater invisibiility, debuffing enemy AC), etc. If you want front-liners to not die, you can usually cast stuff like Displacement or Greater Invisibility on them. But for the most part, spellcasters get self-buffs and other perks that martials don't, plus they're still spellcasters.

No man. I started the argument pointing out Kingdom Building rules are Paizo's invention, not Owlcat's, and that Paizo is fucking fail at design and Desiderius immediately dragged me into an argument because it made him mad or shit because he jumps the gun like that. I thought we were arguing about the PnP rule system (I was talking about Paizo, after all, not Owlcat). He was apparently arguing about the cRPG.
ha, should have known better.
now you argue that wizords arebroken cause they can ruin plot with divination.
Yep. That may have been a sign I wasn't talking about the cRPG, but Desiderius had some weird-ass tunnelvision going on. Was pretty fucking funny.

And the only screenshots disproving my bullshit was Desiderius masturbating to damage numbers from crits.
and what's wrong with that? if martial can fucking 1 round 1600 hp mob casually while I as a wizord need very specific set of actions and build and elemental pick and preferably TB mod it proves his point?
Those screenshots aren't very casual. There's a whole buff-routine involved on those martials Desiderius likes to trot out. Also he's not 1-rounding it. And if you have Wizards you can just spam maximized Enervations and near the end game maximized empowered level drain with that rod.

Path of Exile honestly suffered a lot for the way you can go wild with a massive pool of options. It's why PoE sucks balls at tactical combat
it's a single char action rpg. but whatever, PoE is for PoE thread.
I'm not talking about party balance but the lack of tactical challenge in PoE and how the only thing everyone cares about is reducing the amount of time it takes you to blaze through your enemies, but yeah, this discussion is more for the PoE thread.
 

Xamenos

Magister
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Pathfinder: Wrath
As a caster supremcist myself, I'd have to respectfully disagree in PF:KM. Everything about the game plays to the strengths of fighters.
  1. Attrition (time restrictions, lots of travel, long adventuring days, lots of combat)
  2. Powerful loot that is lavished on the player--particularly attribute and skill increasing items.
  3. Rare spellcaster threats of no significant note. Furthermore, poor AI.
  4. Ample consumables of every kind also lavished on the player.
  5. Hordes of large HP laden monsters with considerable stats, many with immunities (like Wisps).
  6. Well supported CMD and Teamwork Feats
  7. Poor defensive spell list for arcane spell casters
  8. Lots and lots of money available
All of these not only favor martial characters, but are detrimental to spell casters.
You are absolutely right. And the most important of those can, and should, be used in a tabletop campaign as well. Attrition and loot availability alone can do wonders to stop casters from raining on the martial's parade.
 
Self-Ejected

Shitty Kitty

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So basically, allow character of any alignment to solve any situation perfectly as you want.

Yes. This entire genre is about fucking choices and consequences thereof. Obviating an entire line of thought because "duh, the DM says that's not how he thinks LGs think" is patently retarded.

Sorry, but Sadistic Russian DM*tm doesn't let you. Get over it.

Shit DM.
 

Shadenuat

Arcane
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Messages
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Russia
let me point out some stuff here as well

you're not obligated to always cast your highest level of spells so this issue tends to be much smaller at higher levels

low level spells aren't hot on beating DCs, which is why Heighten spell is most common thing you use
There are also spells that don't involve DCs or still do a bunch when resisted (like Sirroco and Fear), as well as the usual buffs and shit. It's a common mistake in PF to focus too much on spells that require saving throws. Later on greater invisibility + maximized enervations
sirocco ok op
weirdo - only good for overleveling as solo
fear, what, it's hd based? and monsters running around aggoring everything is not p good I played pure necro it's only good in rogue dungeon (although Shaken is good ofc)
invisibility is penned by wh?
enervation doesn't even work on bosses for whatever reason when you really want it.

No, like Improved Initiative, the Augment Summons, Superior Summoning
ok you gotta be kidding me here with this shit. Initiative is good for TB in particular, but summong feats? what difficulty are we playing here, easy-normal for that to matter in any way? combat casting?? spell spec - yeah maybe. spell penetration - ever tried to go like through golem or 50 of it? I mean you said yourself - just use irlene wand etc.

kmon dude, a little bit too much scrapping the bottom of the barrel here, martials simply have more fun with feats in this game, be it absolutely free and broken fear that no caster could pull off which works on everything, team and tandem feats, ToEE style whirlwinding, one-punch man shit and all that.
After you pick your poison and max your DCs, your caster build usually ends. Well, that and AT dips.

Sorc bloodlines have some cool shit but featwise, casters are just not very interesting.

Really early on you should try to stay at level 1 and just save up for a party of hirelings so you can have a non-shit party.
:avatard:
conductor I see a problem with how u play gaem
(but like, ok, Sadistic russian dm didn't limit amount of mercenaries depending on difficulty, it's their fault)
 
Last edited:

LannTheStupid

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Soviet Union
Pathfinder: Wrath
Under Paizo's rules, kingdoms only had three stats and a dozen different advisors that affected these stats, the world map was divided in hexes you had to claim one by one, and the mechanics of what these stats did and how events worked were different as well.
You know, I think your comparisons of table top campaigns sold by Paizo and what Owlcat did with them is the best marketing material for Pathfinder: Kingmaker CRPG.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Under Paizo's rules, kingdoms only had three stats and a dozen different advisors that affected these stats, the world map was divided in hexes you had to claim one by one, and the mechanics of what these stats did and how events worked were different as well.
You know, I think your comparisons of table top campaigns sold by Paizo and what Owlcat did with them is the best marketing material for Pathfinder: Kingmaker CRPG.

That WAS Absynth's original point. Just because he's proceeded to royally shit his pants since doesn't mean he was wrong originally.

I said that Paizo makes good games without ever playing PnP because I like reading the d20 and Owlcat has made good cRPGs out of their PnP but I guess I could be wrong.

People smarter than me like them though.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
let me point out some stuff here as well

you're not obligated to always cast your highest level of spells so this issue tends to be much smaller at higher levels

low level spells aren't hot on beating DCs, which is why Heighten spell is most common thing you use
There are also spells that don't involve DCs or still do a bunch when resisted (like Sirroco and Fear), as well as the usual buffs and shit. It's a common mistake in PF to focus too much on spells that require saving throws. Later on greater invisibility + maximized enervations
sirocco ok op
weirdo - only good for overleveling as solo
fear, what, it's hd based? and monsters running around aggoring everything is not p good I played pure necro it's only good in rogue dungeon (although Shaken is good ofc)
invisibility is penned by wh?
enervation doesn't even work on bosses for whatever reason when you really want it.

No, like Improved Initiative, the Augment Summons, Superior Summoning
ok you gotta be kidding me here with this shit. Initiative is good for TB in particular, but summong feats? what difficulty are we playing here, easy-normal for that to matter in any way? combat casting?? spell spec - yeah maybe. spell penetration - ever tried to go like through golem or 50 of it? I mean you said yourself - just use irlene wand etc.

kmon dude, a little bit too much scrapping the bottom of the barrel here, martials simply have more fun with feats in this game, be it absolutely free and broken fear that no caster could pull off which works on everything, team and tandem feats, ToEE style whirlwinding, one-punch man shit and all that.
After you pick your poison and max your DCs, your caster build usually ends. Well, that and AT dips.

Sorc bloodlines have some cool shit but featwise, casters are just not very interesting.

Really early on you should try to stay at level 1 and just save up for a party of hirelings so you can have a non-shit party.
:avatard:
conductor I see a problem with how u play gaem
(but like, ok, Sadistic russian dm didn't limit amount of mercenaries depending on difficulty, it's their fault)

Fear is solid when you've got ranged doing most of your damage and melee toons prepared to take advantage of the AoOs. I use it a good bit with NceroHarrim. Not easy for pure caster to position cones or for non-pure to beat saves.

I had a Linzi build that splashed Thug 4 to open every combat with Fearing Dazzling Display from Stealth, so that was fun. Improved Initiative is the best feat in the game - I no longer take it because OP. The Summoning ones are fine if that's what you're trying to do. Should work better now that group buffs are working on Summons.
 
Self-Ejected

Shitty Kitty

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Just chill man, it's just a video game.
Are we having fun or what?
There are times I can make quite the silk purse of it, but other times I'm reminded that it is a sow's ear.

It's not even that bad for what it is, but I see tons of squandered opportunity, some really strange and seemingly arbitrary decisions... I'm just reminded yet again to not set expectations high. To some extent it's hidebound by its heritage as a PF product and thus subject to a number of the same issues that plagued D&D, and at other times it briefly manages to thwart them.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Now that he's on ignore, and the other clown lost his shit in the face of Lann's superior intellect?

Yeah, pretty much.
 

Absinthe

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Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
"Win an argument"? Really? Where do you think you are, your high school's debate club? This is the internet my friend, and no one ever wins those here. No, I'm doing this for my own amusement and, hopefully, for the spectators' amusement as well. Still, you have my thanks for providing some concrete examples of the specific areas you think casters are superior so I can finally respond. So:
Cute comeback. But determining right and wrong is a key component of arguing on the internet, son. Maybe you're used to arguments being little more than running your mouth, but some of us like to actually get somewhere and establish some points with them. And people do win and lose arguments on the internet. Happens all the time, really.

"have your Wizard craft magic items": Are you for fucking real? Your first example for caster superiority is having the caster waste feats and slave for fucking months to craft equipment that can simply be bought? I don't know about you, but I don't play RPGs to pretend at being an indentured craftsman. But still, assuming a DM sees this as a problem and wants to stop it, the solution isn't "random encounters, lol". It's time pressure. While the party fucks around crafting gear instead of slaying monsters, the bad guys are advancing their plan unopposed, a plan generally detrimental to the world's wellbeing. Can't really blame you for not encountering this at tabletop though, many DMs are shitty and just put the bad guys in stasis while the party does whatever. See my previous point about the world working like Diablo.
Actually it's more to circumvent any restrictions your GM might put in against you just buying the items you want, especially if you want items that are intended for higher level characters than yourself. For instance, if you feel like crafting Candles of Invocation at level 4 so you can spam Gate for less than half the price of actually casting it yourself long before you reach level 17. Pretty handy. It can also give your Cleric access to spells as if he were 2 levels higher but usually you just Gate a spellcaster with 9th level spells or whatever. And then your time pressure evaporates because someone decided to summon superman to run roughshod over your campaign and make himself rich enough to craft more candles.

"cross a broken bridge": The wizard wastes a 3rd level slot, more if the entire party must cross this way. The fighter throws a rope and crosses without expending any resources other than time. Who did a better job bypassing the obstacle, again?
This wasn't a serious argument of spellcaster supremacy. It was an example of how overboard some shitty DMs get with their idea of "consequences" for not doing things the way they want, however benign.

"There are plenty of times when bad DMs do weird passive-aggressive stuff": Yes, many DMs are shitty. I understand now your psychological problems stem from abuse suffered at the hands of shitty DMs, probably at a tender age. Don't worry, we can help you. Just show us on the doll where the bad DM touched you, and we can start the healing process.
No son. I was pointing out how your "DM should fix it with in-campaign consequences" argument easily lends itself to stupid behavior, especially when you advocate it as a solution for huge problems that aren't so easily fixed.

Proof of what? You think this disproves the fact that animal companions can dominate at the Fighter's role for you? It doesn't.

Proof that you're full of shit when you say:
Open map and press I while hovering the animal companion.
Can't blame you for forgetting, it was only a few hours ago.
Old bug got fixed. I'm not seeing the "Gotcha!" shit you're trying to pull.

"My anecdotal evidence" as opposed to your peer-reviewed, double-blind studies, right? And you are, as usual, misinterpreting my point. There are, undeniably, balance issues in the rules as written, especially when interpreted autistically to your favor. But those balance issues are either wildly overblown by retarded forum theorycrafters, or easily shut down by a competent DM applying a modicum of common sense. As for your specific examples:
As opposed to my detailing of specific mechanical faults, your anecdotal evidence rather resembles an ostrich burying its head in the sand.

"Dazing spell, Authoritative spell": Retarded powercreep that aims to sell more and more rulebooks to autistic wannabe powergamers like you is 3.5's and PF's single greatest flaw. It can, however, easily be shut down by the DM simply saying "no". I suppose that makes me a bad, controlling DM that refuses his players the freedom to break the game, but so be it. I've managed so far, I will continue managing in the future.
No, that is definitely shit you should ban, for sanity's sake, along with probably Cherry Blossom Spell and Familiar Spell (which tends to be a lot like Quicken metamagic on steroids), but it's a mark against the system that they put out obscene bullshit like this. Also, I'm pretty sure a lot of this wasn't intentional powercreep but Paizo being too stupid to realize what they were doing.

"Simulacrum, animate dead, fear, fabricate, Planar Ally/Binding/etc, Summon monster/nature's ally, Dominate Person abuse": Have you ever actually used these to break a game? They all have practical difficulties that get glossed over in forum discussions but sink the tactic in practice.
What's your clever solution, attempting to deny people the resources to cast the spells in the first place? Don't leave us in suspense here. If you have good solutions, name 'em, instead of blustering how you totally have answers for all of this that don't resemble indirect attempts at bans.

And, of course, an unimaginative DM can always tell the offending player "Congratulations, you've won this cooperative game. Now, do you want to play like a normal human being so we can continue having fun, or should we kick you out?"
So yes, they do break the game, and you have to demand a gentleman's agreement or otherwise kick people out whenever they do this shit in order to avert these problems. Again, a mark against the system.

"getting clever with illusions": L O L, just how stupid have the DMs you've played with been that they can't deal with fucking illusions?
Is the solution to suddenly redo encounters to be comprised of shit too smart or otherwise with all kinds of unusual senses? Illusions can make a mess of things, when applied with a sufficient degree of cleverness. But I will grant you there are ways to deal with that one.

"Color Spray Oracle": A will-save, mind-affecting spell is your example of abuse? Really? Do you even know how many other high-level will-save spells you could be using that don't require you to build around removing their limits?
Yes, but those are high-level spells. Everyone accepts that a spellcaster will "win" the game with high level spells. The funny thing is that they claim it won't happen at early levels. Color Spray Oracle's nuisance factor is being bullshit whenever it applies from level 2. And then you as the GM probably "cleverly" respond by redoing all your encounters to be immune and whatnot because that is not at all a sign that a certain stunt might be busted. And like I noted later, nothing obligates you to make color spray the only bullshit up your Oracle's sleeves.

"Spamming divinations all day": First, boy I sure am glad no campaign has ever had some sort of time pressure that would prevent you from wasting multiple days like that. And second, what the actual fuck? Divination has so many restrictions that it's absolutely trivial to avoid fessing up "everything you want to know about the campaign".
And there are a lot of different types of divinations and ways to use specific information to make wider inferences. So your new solution is constant time pressure with no days off ever and probably constant combat and no days spent traveling either and hope to run the spellcaster dry so he doesn't cast divinations throughout the campaign. That's getting into bullshit "consequences" territory where you're basically trying to indirectly ban something with suspiciously tailored consequences for attempting to do so. Generally the solutions to divinations are gentleman's agreements, a ban, or lying (another "clever" solution).

"abusing teleportation": Teleportation existing means that the party's travel time drops to zero across familiar places past a certain point, and unfamiliar ones later on. Any DM who does not account for that and lets it "fuck a lot of things" is a complete moron.
It's with unfamiliar places where it gets stupid. Scry and die was the most famous stunt here. There's also the part where your party can choose to spend every night at the mage's personal mansion. And that's not counting the silliness of plane shifting an enemy (but this will cost you loot). But even with familiar places there are loads of ways teleportation can get used to bring friends (by which I'm not referring to party members) and avail yourself of amenities around the world whenever you please.

And it is very easy to have multiple tricks up your sleeves at the same time (absolutely nothing is stopping a Color Spray Oracle from also being a Summon Monster and animate dead abuser that also knows one or two divinations to spam silly, for instance). Just a Druid deciding to earth glide past past a dungeon and collapse the way behind the party can shit on PF with a vengeance. And that's not even including the fact that there are tons of spells for social situations and treasure hunts and whatever the fuck that the mundane types get virtually nothing to compete in.

Remember how I said that caster supremacists assume they'll always know the right spell AND have it prepared AND never run out of slots, while the stupid martials just sit around with their thumbs up their asses and never use silly things like skills, maneuvers or items? This is the perfect quote to demonstrate that. Again, thank you.
Oh good. I didn't know the Oracle was a prepared caster. Oh wait, you're a dumbass. Now that we're done exchanging stupid cheap shots, let's get back to the point shall we? Nothing stops the Oracle from having multiple types of bullshit on his list of spells known at the same time. What was your complaint supposed to be? Not enough daily spells? The Oracle doesn't need to create undead every day. He can just make his strongest undead and heal them afterwards. Casting color spray and summon monster hardly competes for spell slots either. One uses high level slots, the other uses low level slots. Or was the complaint that there is some kind of special preparation to being able to use the right Wild Shape as a Druid? Ah, there isn't. But if you want to always know the right spell, you can prestige into Loremaster and take Secret of Magical Discipline feats so you can spontaneously cast any spell in the game by giving up an equal level prepared spell or spell slot. Or play a Spell Sage Wizard. Or a bunch of other dumb shit because Pathfinder just prints that. Even out of the box a Wizard with an arcane bond can spontaneously cast any spell in his spellbook once per day, although usually you go for the familiar for its perks, like breaking action economy.

Oh boy, a list of suspiciously vague accusations, what a surprise. Do go on about what points I've gotten "entirely wrong" or misinterpreted so horribly. Give the specifics. Name 'em, son. Somehow I suspect you're not going to manage it, though.

PF is far from perfect

But please, do go on about how there are no issues with PF and the game is totally balanced. Please.

Just a single example. Do you want me to pull every quote where you've ignored or misinterpreted someone else's point and acted all smug about it you miserable fuck, or is this enough?
That's not even me making a point, dumbass. Keep going, son. Your need to immediately call it quits at a single lazy example of me just saying out your defense of Pathfinder is stupid and that you're going full fucking selective perception on the game's problems sure is telling about the depth of your repertoire. But hey, you hedged your bets somewhere by saying "PF is far from perfect." Except the thing is, it doesn't prove fuck-all when it comes to you trying so hard to downplay all the actual issues with the game we were talking about. You try to act like spellcaster supremacy is not an actual thing in PF, except it is. Big time.

I've made my position clear and no one here has done fuck-all to disprove it. At most I've seen a nitpick on whether animal companions can equip items in the computer game. You seem to have a different take, so let's have it. Give the details, pal. I doubt you can.
You seem agitated. Might I ask why?
It ain't agitation, son. It's me pointing out you're full of hot air and you proving it through your inability to back up your words. So I was right. You ain't got shit.

No man. I started the argument pointing out Kingdom Building rules are Paizo's invention, not Owlcat's

You know, I'd missed that the first time around. Thanks for stating it again. And I say thanks because it's not true. Yes, the original PnP adventure path had kingdom building rules. Yes, the computer game has kingdom building rules. But these rules are not the same at all. Under Paizo's rules, kingdoms only had three stats and a dozen different advisors that affected these stats, the world map was divided in hexes you had to claim one by one, and the mechanics of what these stats did and how events worked were different as well. The only similarity is the city grid and how the buildings work, and it's not a coincidence it's the crappiest part of Owlcat's implementation. And there were no Artisans in the original path, THE biggest incentive for doing well at kingdom management in the game.

Anyone who's actually played the game and either played or read the tabletop AP would know this. Which makes me absolutely certain you haven't, and are simply regurgitating the idiocy you've read elsewhere.
Nah, I'll give you this one. You're right about this much. I haven't. I just remember looking through the kingdom building rules in the past and seeing what a mess they were. I was pretty sure Owlcat lifted it closely but I guess not. The artisans were obviously an Owlcat addition, of course.

You are absolutely right. And the most important of those can, and should, be used in a tabletop campaign as well. Attrition and loot availability alone can do wonders to stop casters from raining on the martial's parade.
Not as much as you'd like. Most parties tend to call it quits when their spellcaster is out of spells and try to rest for the day. Loot availability isn't really a factor in regular PnP especially when you let people have item creation feats. Spellcasters are pretty much the least item-dependent classes in the game. And a lot of what the cRPG does revolves around severely inflated stats, tons of new immunities, and a highly limited selection of spells, feats, archetypes, etc. for the player characters in addition to a lot of nerfs left and right.

sirocco ok op
weirdo - only good for overleveling as solo
fear, what, it's hd based? and monsters running around aggoring everything is not p good I played pure necro it's only good in rogue dungeon (although Shaken is good ofc)
No, that's Cause Fear and Scare. Fear has no cap and fear conditions escalate iirc so even on a resist you can frighten shit with it for a turn if it was already shaken, provided it's not immune.

invisibility is penned by wh?
enervation doesn't even work on bosses for whatever reason when you really want it.
Yeah, they got limits, but they're about as far as a Wizard should dig into being a damage dealer usually.

No, like Improved Initiative, the Augment Summons, Superior Summoning
ok you gotta be kidding me here with this shit. Initiative is good for TB in particular, but summong feats? what difficulty are we playing here, easy-normal for that to matter in any way? combat casting?? spell spec - yeah maybe. spell penetration - ever tried to go like through golem or 50 of it? I mean you said yourself - just use irlene wand etc.
Granted, Combat Casting and Spell Penetration was a bit scraping the barrel there. I mean you can try to do Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Spell Specialization, and Elf to get +8 to try overcoming SR but usually you don't want to bother. As for summons, that's gonna require a combination of debuffing and buffing to try to do shit.

Summons make decent meatshields and flanking buddies at the least and with the right combinations of buffs and debuffs they do put in work.

kmon dude, a little bit too much scrapping the bottom of the barrel here, martials simply have more fun with feats in this game, be it absolutely free and broken fear that no caster could pull off which works on everything, team and tandem feats, ToEE style whirlwinding, one-punch man shit and all that.
After you pick your poison and max your DCs, your caster build usually ends. Well, that and AT dips.

Sorc bloodlines have some cool shit but featwise, casters are just not very interesting.
Eh, it does end up just being metamagic feats for the most part, granted.

Although there are ways to penalize enemies' saves by giving them stat damage/penalties and conditions like shaken, exhausted, and sickened.

Really early on you should try to stay at level 1 and just save up for a party of hirelings so you can have a non-shit party.
:avatard:
conductor I see a problem with how u play gaem
(but like, ok, Sadistic russian dm didn't limit amount of mercenaries depending on difficulty, it's their fault)
Custom party members are really the way to go.
 
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Absinthe

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Welp, that turned into a wall of text. To put it more simply, Xamenos is on drugs when he acts like caster supremacy is not a serious thing in PF PnP. Spellcasters have tons of bullshit powers to run roughshod over the game in large numbers of ways and they don't need martials at all. Game has major design flaws and his recommended solution of constantly limiting content, requiring gentleman's agreements, and otherwise reshaping the campaign to keep the game functional is mostly proof of how broken the game really is.

On a side note, I see Desiderius is still busy going full fanboy retard and unable to come to terms with criticism.
 
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Shadenuat

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Improved Initiative is the best feat in the game - I no longer take it
and yet as martial you arguably get more consistent use of it :Mbecause caster many times can just fall back on playing defensibly - congratulations enemy, you act first. so you be first to fall into acid pit :shittydog:

Custom party members are really the way to go.
noo dude the fun is to mash companions into silly builds and beat Unfair effortlessly with your Tristian husband summoning skeletons for you Samara-girl style.
custom parties is for Rogue Dungeon - because in it at least you cannot rely on op meta gear.
 

RK47

collides like two planets pulled by gravity
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Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
Just chill man, it's just a video game.
Are we having fun or what?
There are times I can make quite the silk purse of it, but other times I'm reminded that it is a sow's ear.

It's not even that bad for what it is, but I see tons of squandered opportunity, some really strange and seemingly arbitrary decisions... I'm just reminded yet again to not set expectations high. To some extent it's hidebound by its heritage as a PF product and thus subject to a number of the same issues that plagued D&D, and at other times it briefly manages to thwart them.
Look, expectations is a double-edged sword.
I refunded the game on day 1 because I hated RTWP.
I waited a year before TB mode is in and I'm happier.

Curb your expectations.
Choose to be happy.
 
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Self-Ejected

Shitty Kitty

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Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Improved Initiative is the best feat in the game - I no longer take it
and yet as martial you arguably get more consistent use of it :Mbecause caster many times can just fall back on playing defensibly - congratulations enemy, you act first. so you be first to fall into acid pit :shittydog:

Custom party members are really the way to go.
noo dude the fun is to mash companions into silly builds and beat Unfair effortlessly with your Tristian husband summoning skeletons for you Samara-girl style.
custom parties is for Rogue Dungeon - because in it at least you cannot rely on op meta gear.

Not summoning skeletons, slaying Dragons.

TristianPureSkill.jpg
 
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Well, the Bag of Tricks mod has a lot of nice features including lifting allignment locks from dialogue options and instantly completing kingdom events.

Man, I am so torn on this game. I love the 50% of my time in the game when I'm in combat, but despise everything else about it. Hate having to talk to the boring and obnoxious characters, hate having to deal with the stupid kingdom stuff, hate the bland lore and a the walls of text.
 
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Shitty Kitty

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Well, the Bag of Tricks mod has a lot of nice features including lifting allignment locks from dialogue options and instantly completing kingdom events.

Man, I am so torn on this game. I love the 50% of my time in the game when I'm in combat, but despise everything else about it. Hate having to talk to the boring and obnoxious characters, hate having to deal with the stupid kingdom stuff, hate the bland lore and a the walls of text.
Excellent. I can accept alignment drift/shift for certain options, that's fair at times, but just saying "no you can't say that" is dumb.
 

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