Pathfinder Why Owlcat's Kingmaker Sucks, in Plain Language

[Ol' Willy]

Excellent. I can accept alignment drift/shift for certain options, that's fair at times, but just saying "no you can't say that" is dumb.

What's the point of alignment then?

 

[Shitty Kitty]

Excellent. I can accept alignment drift/shift for certain options, that's fair at times, but just saying "no you can't say that" is dumb.

What's the point of alignment then?

It's a reactive "barometer" for player behavior. Alignment as something you lock yourself into from the get-go makes no sense - implies that people never change, implies that a Paladin would never fall barring some kind of weird technicality with a specific rule of his order, etc. People are not static things.

Like, if you want a specific lore-friendly example of alignment shift, Raistlin Majere. There are tons of others too, like Scyllua Darkhope, Aribeth de Tylmarande (spits)... trying to think of some from Greyhawk off the top of my head.

 

[GentlemanCthulhu]

What's the point of alignment then?

I don't see much point to it beyond it conferring deity bonuses and penalties to theist characters. I dislike it locking dialogue options, though choices causing allignment changes is fine. That would be a more interesting balancing act (going against your faith would be mechanically bad, rather than it being arbitrarily restricted).

 

[Shitty Kitty]

I don't see much point to it beyond it conferring deity bonuses and penalties to theist characters. I dislike it locking dialogue options, though choices causing allignment changes is fine. That would be a more interesting balancing act (going against your faith would be mechanically bad, rather than it being arbitrarily restricted).

Usually for things that aren't minor infractions against a theistic code Atonement is involved, but since that's absent in every game I've played based on D&D of any ruleset and what constitutes what level of infraction is generally a DM call and is going to be based on his understanding of the code involved and level of sadism...

 

[Ol' Willy]

Alignment as something you lock yourself into from the get-go makes no sense - implies that people never change, implies that a Paladin would never fall barring some kind of weird technicality with a specific rule of his order, etc. People are not static things.

You choose alignment - you act accordingly (game provides you with options to do so). If you want to act out of alignment - you receive penalties, if you do so often - your alignment is changed with even bigger penalties. That's how I would have implemented this.

 

[RK47]

IIRC Alignment also affects persuasion checks.
If the guy is Lawful Evil and the persuader is Chaotic Good, it's gonna take a lot more to pass the checks...

 

[Shitty Kitty]

Alignment as something you lock yourself into from the get-go makes no sense - implies that people never change, implies that a Paladin would never fall barring some kind of weird technicality with a specific rule of his order, etc. People are not static things.

You choose alignment - you act accordingly (game provides you with options to do so). If you want to act out of alignment - you receive penalties, if you do so often - your alignment is changed with even bigger penalties. That's how I would have implemented this.

For characters with classes not tied to a deity or similar this was basically a matter of the DM deciding "that action was a fairly Good/Evil/Law/Chaos aligned thing" and making a note that the player had experienced a notable shift in his alignment. For theistic characters it gets checked against whatever code he follows, whether the deity would view it as "slightly unorthodox but not offensive and serves my purposes, just be mindful and don't make a habit of it" or "fucking blasphemy" and deciding whether the player would have to undergo Atonement or if it was even an option.

Trying to even model alignment in a CRPG is a tricky thing and requires attaching concrete values to certain actions. This could lead to dipshittery like someone basically farming good-boy-points for the express purpose of being able to cash in chips when they want to do something a little questionable, but you generally don't design a CRPG (or any game really) with the express purpose of shutting down munchkins at every turn because it tends to end up punishing normal players in ways you wouldn't expect. The munchkins can do their retarded shit and people who are actually serious about playing out a story can do their thing and everyone's happy except the grognards who are never happy anyway.

IIRC Alignment also affects persuasion checks.
If the guy is Lawful Evil and the persuader is Chaotic Good, it's gonna take a lot more to pass the checks...

Which is logical if you view alignment as a sort of behavior barometer, as that necessarily means the character has a reputation for behaving a certain way. Most people can't just look at someone and say "Oh, you're a goody two shoes, therefore I'm not interested in what you have to say" (and Paladins/Blackguards/etc and their Detect X ability has itself led to really stupid shit like "LG Paladin can see you're evil! LG Paladin SMITES YOU!" with no other in-character indication that the smite-e has actually DONE anything worth being smote for and not so much as a brief discussion and Sense Motive check)

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

I have never seen such a massive quantity of autistic, mendacious ex-post-facto justification/mental gymnastics for a retarded implementation of a clumsy, archaic system. I'm pretty sure this is like a special-ed version of plutonium, but instead of throwing off alpha particles like crazy it emits little jigsaw-puzzle-piece shaped particles of dumbfuckery and smells like a week-old used diaper.

I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul.

If you're frustrated by Owlcat not allowing dialogue choices outside of alignment, may I direct your attention to the "Scrolls of Atonement" for sale by the priest merchants? Surely these are an aberration, as your LG character are railroaded entirely by their alignment. Furthermore, since you're determined to create some morally nuanced Machiavellian experience with the depth of War and Peace out of a murder-hobo simulation governed by a single D20, I have some suggestions you might enjoy. There is, "squeezing blood from a stone", "pounding sand", and "tilting at windmills".

 

[rusty_shackleford]

if you don't like alignment how about you stop crying like a little bitch and go find a different game

 

[RK47]

Btw mods let u ignore alignment checks anyway.

 

[NJClaw]

Locking certain decisions and outcomes behind specific alignments can be fine in certain situations, but some of the choices in this game make no sense. "You can establish peace between the two tribes only if you are neutral" doesn't make any sense, because the alignment must always be considered in the context of the character and his motivations. If your character is a LG Paladin devoted to the goddess of peace and negotiations, his LG choice should be to negotiate a peace between the two factions. But no, you can't do that, because you don't have the word "neutral" in your alignment.

 

[RK47]

Locking certain decisions and outcomes behind specific alignments can be fine in certain situations, but some of the choices in this game make no sense. "You can establish peace between the two tribes only if you are neutral" doesn't make any sense, because the alignment must always be considered in the context of the character and his motivations. If your character is a LG Paladin devoted to the goddess of peace and negotiations, his LG choice should be to negotiate a peace between the two factions. But no, you can't do that, because you don't have the word "neutral" in your alignment.

But this is why the game is great!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[rusty_shackleford]

All of this is just whining because you guys don't pick the single best alignment(neutral good)

 

[LannTheStupid]

Zoomers don't do fun.

You're Russian.

So you are a zoomer. That explains a lot.

If your character is a LG Paladin devoted to the goddess of peace and negotiations, his LG choice should be to negotiate a peace between the two factions.

This sounds like a stretch goal "double reactivity". May be they will implement something like that.

 

[NJClaw]

All of this is just whining because you guys don't pick the single best alignment(neutral good)

Joke's on you, I always play Neutral Good druids.

Even when I play paladins, I quickly switch to Neutral Good and lose all my powers.

This sounds like a stretch goal "double reactivity". May be they will implement something like that.

Imagine criticizing "buzzwords" all the time and then taking the promise of "double reactivity" seriously.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Imagine criticizing "buzzwords" all the time and then taking the promise of "double reactivity" seriously.

Hey, I paid for that!

 

[smaug]

I don't understand this quote:

Absinthe

Custom Companions are the way to go.

Why are custom companions the way to go, what's wrong with the normal companions?

Part of the fun of the game is finding fun ways to build companions and making them work, despite uneven stats.

Not using the companions in this game is a major loss, same as Baldur's Gate.

 

[bec de corbin]

One of the smart things Deadfire did was give you a few options for companion classes when they join. I think that's a good way to compromise between giving them a story/peronality and letting you build them how you want. I get that it's cool to work within their boundaries, but I also find it somewhat annoying when a character dialog-heavy rpg only gives you one Wizard or whatever, so you basically have to use them. It both means you get more freedom in designing your party for second playthroughs and also that they can cover more of the classes with party members.

 

[Absinthe]

Smaug, the custom companion stats and builds aren't nearly as shit, and you can pull off amusing party compositions that are infeasible with the prepackaged companions. Like all summoner Druids & 1 Bard setup (if you throw in a Paladin, you can pulverize anything Aura of Justice can be made to apply to, but that's a very limited trick), running multiple Sylvan Sorcerers for polymorphed animal companion silliness, all Cleric party, all Bard party for shits & giggles, etc. Also many of the Owlcat companions have grating personalities. Stopping Linzi from ever joining up usually improves the game.

 

[Delterius]

All of this is just whining because you guys don't pick the single best alignment(neutral good)

chaotic neutral has statues of titties in their town square therefore is best

 

[smaug]

Smaug, the custom companion stats and builds aren't nearly as shit, and you can pull off amusing party compositions that are infeasible with the prepackaged companions. Like all summoner Druids & 1 Bard setup (if you throw in a Paladin instead, you can pulverize anything Aura of Justice can be made to apply to), running multiple Sylvan Sorcerers for polymorphed animal companion silliness, all Cleric party, all Bard party for shits & giggles, etc. Also many of the Owlcat companions have grating personalities. Stopping Linzi from ever join up usually improves the game.

Dude, you're a dumbass. The whole point of companions is building them up and making them work despite their stats (That's one of the fun parts).

Autists going to autist, I guess you will like the next game better cause companions are much better optimized.

Also, Linzi is fine. Amiri is really the only obnoxious companion, everyone else is quite good.

 

[Absinthe]

Smaug, the only dumbass I see here is the guy who is going around telling people they are having fun the wrong way.

 

[smaug]

Smaug, the only dumbass I see here is the guy who is going around telling people they are having fun the wrong way.

Whatever floats your boat.

 

[NJClaw]

Stopping Linzi from ever join up usually improves the game.

I was just about to brofist your post, but then you committed blasphemy. Repent!

 

[LannTheStupid]

Amiri is really the only obnoxious companion

She becomes better when the Baron explains her some flaws in the story that she tells herself.