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Pathfinder Why Owlcat's Kingmaker Sucks, in Plain Language

Joined
Oct 1, 2020
Messages
387
Another little martial tactic that I use now:
Enemy is in melee with another party member and my pounce barbarian doesn't have room to charge them
Arcane trickster hits them with a battering blast, knocking them backwards and doing some good damage
Pounce barbarian now charges and whales on them

It's sweet
 

Xamenos

Magister
Patron
Joined
Feb 4, 2020
Messages
1,256
Pathfinder: Wrath
Another little martial tactic that I use now:
Enemy is in melee with another party member and my pounce barbarian doesn't have room to charge them
Arcane trickster hits them with a battering blast, knocking them backwards and doing some good damage
Pounce barbarian now charges and whales on them

It's sweet
Yep, the game is full of sweet things you can do with martials if you just move past "hurr, durr, me hit with sword". And the let's not even get to the joys of grappling, tripping, disarming or intimidating.
 

FathomsDeep

Barely Literate
Joined
Oct 21, 2020
Messages
1
Wow... walls o' text arguments about technical game mechanics and details. How classic D&D is that? I actually just dropped in to say, I quite love the game- except to be fair, I did so by cheating. Before even beginning, I installed mods that allowed me to bypass things like artificial time limits, and to level up at my own pace. Essentially, I leveled the playing field to compensate for an artificial and notoriously arbitrary GM who could not react to creative approaches or decisions. The one thing I cannot seem to find a way to compensate for is the bad railroading and alignment issues. The game advises you frequently to choose advisors with views that closely align with your own, then provides almost exclusively extreme alignments that swing toward either evil or extremist. I'm here primarily because I've stalled at the point in the game where Nok-nok is standing in front of me, and I'm told, I can cheerfully take him with me, leave him behind unharmed, (though I'm assured by all reviews he will join me ANYWAYS,) OR... (the logical choice,) KILL him- but it points out that the game thinks killing this ONE goblin, who has just admittedly been trafficking with an evil Goddess (called Mother of Monsters, for cripes sake,) is a chaotic evil act, even though I've just been pretty much forced to slaughter his entire village. Why on earth WOULDN'T any SANE character kill him? He doesn't offer any good justification for sparing his life, he's not contrite, he's not sorry, he's PROUD of what he's just been doing, and gives you no reason to think he's not going to keep on doing it. NOT killing him is Chaotic Stupid. No rational reasonable GM would claim that doing so under the given circumstances was an act of evil. Meanwhile, you have Jubilost, supposedly CN, who is a numbers nerd, and ridiculously orderly about everything (except the whole bombs thing, but even that he approaches in a meticulously logical fashion.) These are just a couple of examples of the nonsense railroad approach the game takes to dealing with alignments.

Another is that certain dialogues and reactions are only even visible to the player if they meet certain alignment criteria, implying that alignment is not, in the devs' view, ever a direct result or reflection of your choices and actions, but rather, a fixed state you cannot alter through choices and behaviors. Happily, the mods I use allow me to force all alignment options to be available in game, regardless of current alignment. Unfortunately, the Nok-nok thing has me completely hamstrung. It doesn't SEEM like single actions sway my alignment that much, I'm CG, and have been repeatedly forced to choose LG, NG, and LN options, because the only alternatives were blatantly evil. Much as I AM overall enjoying the game, I very much agree with those who have said, if this were my GM, I'd quit his table.
 

Trashos

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
3,413
FathomsDeep,
Nok^2 is a bullying victim (and bullying is one of the recurring themes in Kingmaker, eg see the Stag Lord, Irovetti, Linzi etc), so there is something to be said about supporting him through it (especially since his whole village basically piled on him).

That said, it is hard for me right now to see that scene with the eyes of someone who doesn't have the whole picture yet. I am sure that the first time I met him I only thought "Oh, here is a companion, let's take him!"
 
Self-Ejected

RNGsus

Self-Ejected
Joined
Apr 29, 2011
Messages
8,106
Essentially, I leveled the playing field to compensate for an artificial and notoriously arbitrary GM who could not react to creative approaches or decisions.
This fucking weasel.:lol::lol::lol:

No, you cheated.
what is wrong with you
Reading is hard, but sometimes useful. However, this skill has been almost forgotten in the so called "West".
The West could still remember how to read, unlike the so called "East" who never learned.
 

Pink Eye

Monk
Patron
Joined
Oct 10, 2019
Messages
6,195
Location
Space Refrigerator
I'm very into cock and ball torture
Wow... walls o' text arguments about technical game mechanics and details. How classic D&D is that? I actually just dropped in to say, I quite love the game- except to be fair, I did so by cheating. Before even beginning, I installed mods that allowed me to bypass things like artificial time limits, and to level up at my own pace. Essentially, I leveled the playing field to compensate for an artificial and notoriously arbitrary GM who could not react to creative approaches or decisions. The one thing I cannot seem to find a way to compensate for is the bad railroading and alignment issues. The game advises you frequently to choose advisors with views that closely align with your own, then provides almost exclusively extreme alignments that swing toward either evil or extremist. I'm here primarily because I've stalled at the point in the game where Nok-nok is standing in front of me, and I'm told, I can cheerfully take him with me, leave him behind unharmed, (though I'm assured by all reviews he will join me ANYWAYS,) OR... (the logical choice,) KILL him- but it points out that the game thinks killing this ONE goblin, who has just admittedly been trafficking with an evil Goddess (called Mother of Monsters, for cripes sake,) is a chaotic evil act, even though I've just been pretty much forced to slaughter his entire village. Why on earth WOULDN'T any SANE character kill him? He doesn't offer any good justification for sparing his life, he's not contrite, he's not sorry, he's PROUD of what he's just been doing, and gives you no reason to think he's not going to keep on doing it. NOT killing him is Chaotic Stupid. No rational reasonable GM would claim that doing so under the given circumstances was an act of evil. Meanwhile, you have Jubilost, supposedly CN, who is a numbers nerd, and ridiculously orderly about everything (except the whole bombs thing, but even that he approaches in a meticulously logical fashion.) These are just a couple of examples of the nonsense railroad approach the game takes to dealing with alignments.

Another is that certain dialogues and reactions are only even visible to the player if they meet certain alignment criteria, implying that alignment is not, in the devs' view, ever a direct result or reflection of your choices and actions, but rather, a fixed state you cannot alter through choices and behaviors. Happily, the mods I use allow me to force all alignment options to be available in game, regardless of current alignment. Unfortunately, the Nok-nok thing has me completely hamstrung. It doesn't SEEM like single actions sway my alignment that much, I'm CG, and have been repeatedly forced to choose LG, NG, and LN options, because the only alternatives were blatantly evil. Much as I AM overall enjoying the game, I very much agree with those who have said, if this were my GM, I'd quit his table.
>Before even beginning
>I installed mods that allowed me to level up at my own pace.
What's the point then. Might at as well play on Story Mode. Not wanting to deal with time limits is fine, but cheating experience is pretty lame; don't you think?
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,815
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
The West could still remember how to read, unlike the so called "East" who never learned.

What are you fed up about RNGsus? The rack on that chick they set you up with in the first scene was literally unreal.
 

Gregz

Arcane
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
8,924
Location
The Desert Wasteland
Wow... walls o' text arguments about technical game mechanics and details. How classic D&D is that? I actually just dropped in to say, I quite love the game- except to be fair, I did so by cheating. Before even beginning, I installed mods that allowed me to bypass things like artificial time limits, and to level up at my own pace. Essentially, I leveled the playing field to compensate for an artificial and notoriously arbitrary GM who could not react to creative approaches or decisions. The one thing I cannot seem to find a way to compensate for is the bad railroading and alignment issues. The game advises you frequently to choose advisors with views that closely align with your own, then provides almost exclusively extreme alignments that swing toward either evil or extremist. I'm here primarily because I've stalled at the point in the game where Nok-nok is standing in front of me, and I'm told, I can cheerfully take him with me, leave him behind unharmed, (though I'm assured by all reviews he will join me ANYWAYS,) OR... (the logical choice,) KILL him- but it points out that the game thinks killing this ONE goblin, who has just admittedly been trafficking with an evil Goddess (called Mother of Monsters, for cripes sake,) is a chaotic evil act, even though I've just been pretty much forced to slaughter his entire village. Why on earth WOULDN'T any SANE character kill him? He doesn't offer any good justification for sparing his life, he's not contrite, he's not sorry, he's PROUD of what he's just been doing, and gives you no reason to think he's not going to keep on doing it. NOT killing him is Chaotic Stupid. No rational reasonable GM would claim that doing so under the given circumstances was an act of evil. Meanwhile, you have Jubilost, supposedly CN, who is a numbers nerd, and ridiculously orderly about everything (except the whole bombs thing, but even that he approaches in a meticulously logical fashion.) These are just a couple of examples of the nonsense railroad approach the game takes to dealing with alignments.

Another is that certain dialogues and reactions are only even visible to the player if they meet certain alignment criteria, implying that alignment is not, in the devs' view, ever a direct result or reflection of your choices and actions, but rather, a fixed state you cannot alter through choices and behaviors. Happily, the mods I use allow me to force all alignment options to be available in game, regardless of current alignment. Unfortunately, the Nok-nok thing has me completely hamstrung. It doesn't SEEM like single actions sway my alignment that much, I'm CG, and have been repeatedly forced to choose LG, NG, and LN options, because the only alternatives were blatantly evil. Much as I AM overall enjoying the game, I very much agree with those who have said, if this were my GM, I'd quit his table.

I'm glad to hear there are sufficient mods and cheats to allow the player to de-Owlcat this travesty of design. Ideally the combat engine would be leasable to designers who actually know what they're doing, but this is a step in the right direction.
 
Last edited:

GrainWetski

Arcane
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
5,334
>Before even beginning
>I installed mods that allowed me to level up at my own pace.
What's the point then. Might at as well play on Story Mode. Not wanting to deal with time limits is fine, but cheating experience is pretty lame; don't you think?
Codex in 2020 is cheating in Kingmaker because it's 'too hard/oldschool' while jerking off to every console action game heralded as RPGs.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,815
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
I hate Kingmaker. It starts so promising and then just goes tedious and repetitive and shit. Cock tease fuckers.

They packed an unprecedented amount of shit into those first three chapters tho. Not really that big of a surprise that they finally ran out of steam. Ch 4 and 5 are only tedious if you’re having to reload a lot but once you hit the sweet spot those are solid too. It’s only really Pitax (too easy outside of a room or two at the palace) and House (just kind of disorienting at this point, but I’m sure a gamer fresh off of Zork or Wizardry II or whatever in the early 80s would find it trivial - peeps just don’t have the patience for that shot anymore).
 

Darth Canoli

Arcane
Joined
Jun 8, 2018
Messages
5,737
Location
Perched on a tree
Ideally the combat engine would be leasable to designers who actually know what they're doing

:abyssgazer:

In a better parallel dimension, Owlcat didn't try to build this engine, instead, they modded KotC or ToEE and put their retarded card game kingdom management "ideas" to rest.

In that perfect world, they also outsourced the companions design, backgrounds and quests to some competent foes.
Searching for recent interesting companions, only Grimoire comes to mind, though, otherwise, you'd have to go back to Wizardry 8 or ToEE...
 

Gregz

Arcane
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
8,924
Location
The Desert Wasteland
2f7ed76f00000578-0-image-a-7_1450485464741-jpg.16889
 

Citizen

Guest
Wow... walls o' text arguments about technical game mechanics and details. How classic D&D is that? I actually just dropped in to say, I quite love the game- except to be fair, I did so by cheating. Before even beginning, I installed mods that allowed me to bypass things like artificial time limits, and to level up at my own pace. Essentially, I leveled the playing field to compensate for an artificial and notoriously arbitrary GM who could not react to creative approaches or decisions. The one thing I cannot seem to find a way to compensate for is the bad railroading and alignment issues. The game advises you frequently to choose advisors with views that closely align with your own, then provides almost exclusively extreme alignments that swing toward either evil or extremist. I'm here primarily because I've stalled at the point in the game where Nok-nok is standing in front of me, and I'm told, I can cheerfully take him with me, leave him behind unharmed, (though I'm assured by all reviews he will join me ANYWAYS,) OR... (the logical choice,) KILL him- but it points out that the game thinks killing this ONE goblin, who has just admittedly been trafficking with an evil Goddess (called Mother of Monsters, for cripes sake,) is a chaotic evil act, even though I've just been pretty much forced to slaughter his entire village. Why on earth WOULDN'T any SANE character kill him? He doesn't offer any good justification for sparing his life, he's not contrite, he's not sorry, he's PROUD of what he's just been doing, and gives you no reason to think he's not going to keep on doing it. NOT killing him is Chaotic Stupid. No rational reasonable GM would claim that doing so under the given circumstances was an act of evil. Meanwhile, you have Jubilost, supposedly CN, who is a numbers nerd, and ridiculously orderly about everything (except the whole bombs thing, but even that he approaches in a meticulously logical fashion.) These are just a couple of examples of the nonsense railroad approach the game takes to dealing with alignments.

Another is that certain dialogues and reactions are only even visible to the player if they meet certain alignment criteria, implying that alignment is not, in the devs' view, ever a direct result or reflection of your choices and actions, but rather, a fixed state you cannot alter through choices and behaviors. Happily, the mods I use allow me to force all alignment options to be available in game, regardless of current alignment. Unfortunately, the Nok-nok thing has me completely hamstrung. It doesn't SEEM like single actions sway my alignment that much, I'm CG, and have been repeatedly forced to choose LG, NG, and LN options, because the only alternatives were blatantly evil. Much as I AM overall enjoying the game, I very much agree with those who have said, if this were my GM, I'd quit his table.

Learn formatting, stop cheating, kys
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,815
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Evil is too important to be taken seriously.

This is Nok nok koan.
 
Joined
May 31, 2018
Messages
2,847
Location
The Present
Kingmaker's combat was fine. It's two major sins were poor AI and bloat. The poor AI is obvious, but the bloat is insidious because linear D20 systems fall apart at the extremes of their range. Item bloat not only hastened that problem, but led to many classes, spells, and abilities being superfluous. That being said, it's good enough, and the robust character & party creation system of D&D 3.5/Pathfinder is the heart of the game. If you're an RPG fan, this good enough to make the short-comings forgivable.

The exploration is generally good despite the lack of varied terrain. Most areas are no larger than they need to be to showcase an encounter, while some grand areas have much to dig in to. The artwork is perfectly fine. The exception (for the most part), are the standard portraits. I fault Paizo for that. While it lacks the grounded beauty of PoE, Kingmaker will age well. One things the OP doesn't mention, is that the soundtrack is actually good. Not passable, but good. I'm particularly fond of the "boss music" that we first enjoy at the Stag Lord's battle.

The setting itself is an abomination, but Owlcat made lemonade with lemons on this one. The game doesn't suffer much from being in Golarian, amazingly enough. The plot is serviceable, but does tend to get distracted a bit. The events are ultimately an excuse for the PC to go on cool adventures, and I can't fault it for that. If we really dissect it, Kingmaker has some nice themes of honor, redemption, and not taking things a face value. The joinable NPCs, which make a horrid first impression, are good examples of those themes. The overall competent writing also helps the plot delivery, which would be a disconnected mess otherwise.

All in all, this game is outstanding. Even in it's worst categories, the game is firmly competent. It's without a doubt, the heir and successor to the Baldur's Gate series and the best cRPG since. As a debut title, Owlcat performed remarkably--so much so that they purchased their way out of indentured servitude to publishers. They haven't been in the business long enough to forget their passion or roots, nor metastasized as a studio to where they must attempt to consume market share. This game was nearly every PoE promised to be but pompously failed to deliver. Owlcat nurtured the ember Obsidian forgot, and is now the CRPG torchbearer. All indications from WotR beta alpha indicate that it will be the sequel to Kingmaker that Shadows of Amn was to Baldur's Gate.
 

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