Pathfinder Why Owlcat's Kingmaker Sucks, in Plain Language

[Theldaran]

The Xurxur beast will make Cuckfinder obsolete. Seen it in the fire.

 

[Daud]

I have more than a couple of unfinished playthroughs on PF:K, I hope I'll be able to finish the most advanced one but some mechanics and design choices are starting to rub me the wrong way.

I love how much deep you can go with your character through multiclassing, which can be scary at first for new players. The art style and graphics are also great.
Managing a kingdom sounds cool at first, but in the mid game becomes a total chore with dozens of cards to review, and switching to auto defeats the purpose of choice.
Travel is also starting to become tedious and there are so many areas to visit on the map you'll inevitably skip content.
Personally, the most bothersome aspect is how they botched alignment(and moral choices in general) in so many occasions. And don't get me started on companions or advisors being taken away from you for plot reasons.

PF brings a lot on the table(and hopefully the next game will build on that), but some mechanics really frustrate the player, and that's not good given how long the game is.

 

[Desiderius]

I have more than a couple of unfinished playthroughs on PF:K, I hope I'll be able to finish the most advanced one but some mechanics and design choices are starting to rub me the wrong way.

I love how much deep you can go with your character through multiclassing, which can be scary at first for new players. The art style and graphics are also great.
Managing a kingdom sounds cool at first, but in the mid game becomes a total chore with dozens of cards to review, and switching to auto defeats the purpose of choice.
Travel is also starting to become tedious and there are so many areas to visit on the map you'll inevitably skip content.
Personally, the most bothersome aspect is how they botched alignment(and moral choices in general) in so many occasions. And don't get me started on companions or advisors being taken away from you for plot reasons.

PF brings a lot on the table(and hopefully the next game will build on that), but some mechanics really frustrate the player, and that's not good given how long the game is.

Everything you mention here is the direct result of strategic mistakes (multiclassing is actively bad in most cases since abilities scale by class level, etc...).

If you’re going to have games where choices matter, sometimes there will be bad choices. If the next move after making those is to blame the game the inevitable result will be faceroll.

 

[Daud]

I have more than a couple of unfinished playthroughs on PF:K, I hope I'll be able to finish the most advanced one but some mechanics and design choices are starting to rub me the wrong way.

I love how much deep you can go with your character through multiclassing, which can be scary at first for new players. The art style and graphics are also great.
Managing a kingdom sounds cool at first, but in the mid game becomes a total chore with dozens of cards to review, and switching to auto defeats the purpose of choice.
Travel is also starting to become tedious and there are so many areas to visit on the map you'll inevitably skip content.
Personally, the most bothersome aspect is how they botched alignment(and moral choices in general) in so many occasions. And don't get me started on companions or advisors being taken away from you for plot reasons.

PF brings a lot on the table(and hopefully the next game will build on that), but some mechanics really frustrate the player, and that's not good given how long the game is.

Everything you mention here is the direct result of strategic mistakes (multiclassing is actively bad in most cases since abilities scale by class level, etc...).

If you’re going to have games where choices matter, sometimes there will be bad choices. If the next move after making those is to blame the game the inevitable result will be faceroll.

No it isn't. I'm very deep with a playthrough(Act 5) on Hard with a heavily multiclassed MC that works just fine. I know how you have to carefully multiclass to scale properly.
About choices, I was talking about forced ones, or how badly assigned are some alignments to them in several occasions.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Westerners do not know alignments despite the fact they introduced them. This is true for many other things, too.

 

[Desiderius]

I have more than a couple of unfinished playthroughs on PF:K, I hope I'll be able to finish the most advanced one but some mechanics and design choices are starting to rub me the wrong way.

I love how much deep you can go with your character through multiclassing, which can be scary at first for new players. The art style and graphics are also great.
Managing a kingdom sounds cool at first, but in the mid game becomes a total chore with dozens of cards to review, and switching to auto defeats the purpose of choice.
Travel is also starting to become tedious and there are so many areas to visit on the map you'll inevitably skip content.
Personally, the most bothersome aspect is how they botched alignment(and moral choices in general) in so many occasions. And don't get me started on companions or advisors being taken away from you for plot reasons.

PF brings a lot on the table(and hopefully the next game will build on that), but some mechanics really frustrate the player, and that's not good given how long the game is.

Everything you mention here is the direct result of strategic mistakes (multiclassing is actively bad in most cases since abilities scale by class level, etc...).

If you’re going to have games where choices matter, sometimes there will be bad choices. If the next move after making those is to blame the game the inevitable result will be faceroll.

No it isn't. I'm very deep with a playthrough(Act 5) on Hard with a heavily multiclassed MC that works just fine. I know how you have to carefully multiclass to scale properly.
About choices, I was talking about forced ones, or how badly assigned are some alignments to them in several occasions.

You’re mistaken.

 

[Daud]

I have more than a couple of unfinished playthroughs on PF:K, I hope I'll be able to finish the most advanced one but some mechanics and design choices are starting to rub me the wrong way.

I love how much deep you can go with your character through multiclassing, which can be scary at first for new players. The art style and graphics are also great.
Managing a kingdom sounds cool at first, but in the mid game becomes a total chore with dozens of cards to review, and switching to auto defeats the purpose of choice.
Travel is also starting to become tedious and there are so many areas to visit on the map you'll inevitably skip content.
Personally, the most bothersome aspect is how they botched alignment(and moral choices in general) in so many occasions. And don't get me started on companions or advisors being taken away from you for plot reasons.

PF brings a lot on the table(and hopefully the next game will build on that), but some mechanics really frustrate the player, and that's not good given how long the game is.

Everything you mention here is the direct result of strategic mistakes (multiclassing is actively bad in most cases since abilities scale by class level, etc...).

If you’re going to have games where choices matter, sometimes there will be bad choices. If the next move after making those is to blame the game the inevitable result will be faceroll.

No it isn't. I'm very deep with a playthrough(Act 5) on Hard with a heavily multiclassed MC that works just fine. I know how you have to carefully multiclass to scale properly.
About choices, I was talking about forced ones, or how badly assigned are some alignments to them in several occasions.

You’re mistaken.

Good point.

 

[Desiderius]

Nice.

I could be wrong, but I doubt it. Was in a similar rut myself but then the game sucked me back in later and I figured shit out.

 

[Gregz]

I have more than a couple of unfinished playthroughs on PF:K, I hope I'll be able to finish the most advanced one but some mechanics and design choices are starting to rub me the wrong way.

I love how much deep you can go with your character through multiclassing, which can be scary at first for new players. The art style and graphics are also great.
Managing a kingdom sounds cool at first, but in the mid game becomes a total chore with dozens of cards to review, and switching to auto defeats the purpose of choice.
Travel is also starting to become tedious and there are so many areas to visit on the map you'll inevitably skip content.
Personally, the most bothersome aspect is how they botched alignment(and moral choices in general) in so many occasions. And don't get me started on companions or advisors being taken away from you for plot reasons.

PF brings a lot on the table(and hopefully the next game will build on that), but some mechanics really frustrate the player, and that's not good given how long the game is.

Everything you mention here is the direct result of strategic mistakes (multiclassing is actively bad in most cases since abilities scale by class level, etc...).

If you’re going to have games where choices matter, sometimes there will be bad choices. If the next move after making those is to blame the game the inevitable result will be faceroll.

No it isn't. I'm very deep with a playthrough(Act 5) on Hard with a heavily multiclassed MC that works just fine. I know how you have to carefully multiclass to scale properly.
About choices, I was talking about forced ones, or how badly assigned are some alignments to them in several occasions.

You’re mistaken.

Good point.

Don't let Desiderius gaslight you, he's a vatnik arguing in bad faith.

 

[Desiderius]

No, the endgame of KM is missing entirely, and the whole thing is woefully underdeveloped. For real, not shilling.

My whole aim is to focus attention on things the devs actually got wrong or need to improve on instead of players choosing a poor strategy and/or not playing the game as designed.

If you’ve got a card backup and you’re tired of traveling that means you’re gallivanting around when you should be ranking up. My last couple times through I saved up several quests for each trip and/or Teleportation Circles and things went much more smoothly.

The mini game of getting Circles up early added some strategic depth that the 4x part of the game (buildings etc) is sorely missing.

As for Alignment, there you’re probably just wrong, although Owlcat goes off in some weird directions too there.

 

[NJClaw]

If you’ve got a card backup and you’re tired of traveling that means you’re gallivanting around when you should be ranking up.

Then why is ranking up not fun?

 

[Desiderius]

Because you weren’t focused on the very real (but yeah incomplete, Region Upgrades a total bust) rewards for doing so? Compulsion immunity is so naice.

I got to the point where I was relieved to rescue Tristian and Amiri so I could get back to what I was really interested in - getting those ranks up and unlocking shit.

 

[LannTheStupid]

I think every learning is gaslighting. Like, you know that Earth is flat, and then someone gaslights you that it is a ball. You know that spider swarms are impassable, and then someone writes that he finished the quest. You know that the only thing Regongar can do is to die, and then someone gaslights you that he is an amazing front liner.

There is a lot of gaslighting in our lives...

 

[NJClaw]

Because you weren’t focused on the very real (but yeah incomplete, Region Upgrades a total bust) rewards for doing so? Compulsion immunity is so naice.

I got to the point where I was relieved to rescue Tristian and Amiri so I could get back to what I was really interested in - getting those ranks up and unlocking shit.

Whatever reward kingdom management may offer, staring at the screen while the circle on the top goes "wooosh wooosh" is too boring. I only want one reward: to be able to play the parts of the game that are actually fun.

 

[Desiderius]

Spamming Mind Fog at everything in the Depths while Amiri laughs at all dem fools = fun.

Turns Linzi into Tehanu.

 

[Sweeper]

I have more than a couple of unfinished playthroughs on PF:K, I hope I'll be able to finish the most advanced one but some mechanics and design choices are starting to rub me the wrong way.

I love how much deep you can go with your character through multiclassing, which can be scary at first for new players. The art style and graphics are also great.
Managing a kingdom sounds cool at first, but in the mid game becomes a total chore with dozens of cards to review, and switching to auto defeats the purpose of choice.
Travel is also starting to become tedious and there are so many areas to visit on the map you'll inevitably skip content.
Personally, the most bothersome aspect is how they botched alignment(and moral choices in general) in so many occasions. And don't get me started on companions or advisors being taken away from you for plot reasons.

PF brings a lot on the table(and hopefully the next game will build on that), but some mechanics really frustrate the player, and that's not good given how long the game is.

>Combatfag game isn't like an RPfag game
How's about you shut the fuck up retard?

 

[luj1]

No, the endgame of KM is missing entirely

Quest structure is missing too, replaced by a buggy facebook minigame

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Ranking up gets a little tedious by Pitax, but that's largely because I've upgraded most things that matter by that point. Artisans have been giving me good stuff, so I'm well equipped and richer than Croseus at that point. Same applies to upgrades like the immunities and bonuses. The final ranks and buildings are mostly just thematic for those that want to bask in their own magnanimous glory. I enjoyed it, but it's not for everyone.

Anyhow, people who are struggling with the game or resentful of the kingdom management tend to not understand how extraordinarily benefitial and vital it is.

 

[Dycedarg]

Anyhow, people who are struggling with the game or resentful of the kingdom management tend to not understand how extraordinarily benefitial and vital it is.

Kingdom management is certainly beneficial, but it's also a chore. Don't get me wrong, I really liked the game, especially with the turn based option. But the amount of time I had spend micromanaging my territory instead of exploring, fighting or reading was really excessive.

 

[luj1]

Sid Meier's Pathfinder

 

[NJClaw]

Anyhow, people who are struggling with the game or resentful of the kingdom management tend to not understand how extraordinarily benefitial and vital it is.

Sure, it's definitely because we don't understand how extraordinarily beneficial and vital it is, not because the gameplay involved is boring and mainly consists in staring at a screen as days go by, doing absolutely nothing.

And all this talk about kingdom management offering rewards that suddenly make all that idle time worthwhile is nonsensical, because racking up those rewards requires no real effort if you know what you are doing. As long as you buy some BP and complete the insulting artisans' quests, you really can't fail.

 

[Shadenuat]

When it comes to side locations and kingdom management, Owlcats fell into what I begin to call a formulaic design trap. It's when you design things in a formulaic way (x locations y hours) without taking into consideration players experience or the narrative of the rpg. As game goes on, the tempo of the game should increase with the increasing stakes. The further you are in the plot, the less there should be little side locations to explore. They should mostly be in beginning of the game. The less there should be rote kingdom cards, and the more focus on consequences of these cards from previous chapter.
Instead the tempo of the game regardless of the plot is somewhat the same. Every chapter plays by similar formula, all companions resolve their quests in similar time period, you always have relatively similar amount of boring job to do etc.
It's like failure at dramaturgy of the game.

 

[NJClaw]

The less there should be rote kingdom cards, and the more focus on consequences of these cards from previous chapter.

Unique cards with actual consequences other than kingdom stats going up and down would have been sick. But with Kingmaker Owlcat already bit more than they could chew, implementing branching paths with long-lasting consequences for your kingdom would have probably sunk the ship.

 

[Efe]

isnt that what projects are?
I get what you're saying but immunity to compulsions, etc isnt unique enough for you?

 

[NJClaw]

isnt that what projects are?
I get what you're saying but immunity to compulsions, etc isnt unique enough for you?

Sure, that's cool, but I'm talking about the hundreds of times that you have to click on problems and events that have no actual consequence on the game. 75% of projects and 100% of problems and opportunities do absolutely nothing for the core game experience. It's a time-wasting minigame that rarely impacts what you actually bought the game for (the isometric RPG).

There are tens of events like:

Adepts of bizarre cult insist that the forests are disappearing, and that Erastil demands a human sacrifice. Apparently, the trees will return to life if the soil is fertilized with blood. The cultists have armed themselves with bows and set out for the forest, murdering every passer-by for the glory of Erastil. The people are terrified, and now avoid woods and thickets.

A fey magician visited a settlement, and made everyday things come to life! The people seem to be more frightened than amused by the minor and generally harmless anomaly.

A druid fanatic, and defender of the forests, has appeared in the kingdom. He sends wild animals to attack woodcutters, grows forests over the roads, and destroys sawmills. His actions are damaging the local communities, and those who express outrage have only suffered his wrath. He must be stopped, or the lands will soon turn into a dense forest!

A band of arsonists is on the loose in the city. They're extorting money from the homeowners, threatening to set fire to their property if they refuse to pay. These criminals must be stopped!

A druid from the lands of the Linnorm Kings is offering to perform a bloody ritual called the Braided Man, which involves a human sacrifice. The ritual promises to grant a bountiful harvest. But is it ethical to burn someone to ashes for the sake of an abundant harvest?

But what do they do? Nothing. The only agency the player has is to privilege certain stats over others, and the whole thing basically consists in a very barebone resources management minigame where you have to optimize each advisor's time. It can be fun at first because you feel involved in your kingdom, but it quickly becomes apparent that there's nothing behind those events and that the whole minigame is just for its own sake. And the various "advisor X requests an audience" aren't any better, since most of them have exactly zero consequences. There's a huge disproportion between how much time this minigame takes and how little it actually offers in terms of gameplay. To me, the kingdom management feature was passable at best during the first playthrough, but became a burden in subsequent ones (I still played the game for thousands of hours and I will probably keep playing it in the future, so it's not like I don't like it).

I think that having a lot less kingdom cards with a lot more "gameplay content" (areas to explore, quests to solve, enemies to fight) linked to them would have greatly benefited Kingmaker. Not because the game doesn't have enough content, but because the core gameplay is so much more fun than the kingdom management part.