Why Pentiment is an RPG and should be on this forum

[SunKing]

An RPG must have a narrative

What's Mount and Blade's?

A rpg

Do you think Josh would consider having a gypsy roomate?

 

[ERYFKRAD]

A rpg

Mount and Blade is an rpg.

Do you think Josh would consider having a gypsy roomate?

Tell him it's a refugee and his German ancestry will not object.

 

[SharkClub]

Nope, my ass is more RPG than Pentiment.

Toilet Roll Playing Game

 

[ArchAngel]

I got two questions:
1. But what is an RPG?
2. Is Pentiment fun? I see it is part of Game Pass, no idea if it is worth even playing for "free".

 

[luj1]

1. Small-scale fantasy wargaming
2. No

 

[Vic]

dungeon crawling is small-scale wargaming?

 

[luj1]

It can be. Dungeon crawling is an activity. Small-scale wargaming is a format. You are comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Serus]

Pacifism in the fantasy milieu is for those who would be slaves.

haven't looked into your other quotes but this caught my eye and sure enough is quoted out if context. Link to full quote:

https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=197378#p197378

Disco Elysium has only one or two dice rolls pertaining to combat iirc, and it's still considered an RPG.

Action combat is not even PnP-like combat and yet games like Morrowind and Witcher are considered RPGs.

You can post 100 more (mis)quotes but I just don't see combat being a hard requirement for an RPG, not theoretically at least. After all you have to do something in a game and not all games can be a Disco Elysium.

Is it? That's the question because there are people who don't consider it one. It is clearly a controversial issue.
Combat (as in combat mechanics) in action CRPG need to be based on numbers and stats that makes it "pnp-like". Morrowind's combat is like that.
You seem to be very centred on what is and what isn't "considered" something. But considered by who? There are lots of people out there who would consider all kind of silly games "rpg". Games such that even you would laugh at the idea.

 

[Alex]

It can be. Dungeon crawling is an activity. Small-scale wargaming is a format. You are comparing apples to oranges.

Dungeon crawling is an activity, sure, but it is also a specific way to play RPGs.

To be more clear, a "dungeon crawl" is a kind of RPG campaign where the game revolves around exploring a closed, hostile environment (the dungeon), managing to get the treasures hidden in there (the loot) and getting out, using part of what you find as equipment and selling the rest. It is a very fun kind of game and, as a sub-genre of RPG, I believe it would be correct to say that here indeed combat of some kind is a necessity. A dungeon crawl where you face only puzzles and traps could work, but it would veer into a different kind of game already, I believe.

 

[luj1]

RPG without story is a wargame.
RPG without combat is visual theater.

 

[Darkozric]

visual theater

I like the term, I'll keep it for future use

 

[†††]

As opposed to blind theater

 

[Corbin Dallas Multipass]

Someone name a single game in which you do not play a role.

You can't. Thus all games are roleplaying games.

What's the difference between a game and any other activity?

There isn't one. Thus everything is a game.

Therefore, literally everything, including me positing this here, is an RPG.

(The role I'm playing here is that of a pedant. A correct one, sadly...)

 

[†††]

Someone name a single game in which you do not play a role.

What role am I playing in Tetris?

 

[Maxwell's Demon]

But playing a character through that setting doesn't need a narrative at any level other than at most the player character's background and whatever narrative the player creates by having their character adventure through that world and how the player has his character deal with what he comes across whether their literally adventuring, choosing to stay in town to work a profession, etc. That is true roleplaying.

Presicely, I wholeheartedly agree. So you see at some level every RPG has a narrative. It's integral to what makes an RPG, just like combat.

Which brings us back to the point of this thread: Pentiment absolutely is not an RPG.

This is equivocating between two senses of "narrative", i.e.: "narrative" meaning the developers' intended, prewritten story, and "narrative" meaning the player's story of interacting with a game. Yes, those things are different, and often totally separate.

 

[Alex]

Someone name a single game in which you do not play a role.

What role am I playing in Tetris?

Soviet union worker.

 

[Vic]

Pacifism in the fantasy milieu is for those who would be slaves.

haven't looked into your other quotes but this caught my eye and sure enough is quoted out if context. Link to full quote:

https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=197378#p197378

Disco Elysium has only one or two dice rolls pertaining to combat iirc, and it's still considered an RPG.

Action combat is not even PnP-like combat and yet games like Morrowind and Witcher are considered RPGs.

You can post 100 more (mis)quotes but I just don't see combat being a hard requirement for an RPG, not theoretically at least. After all you have to do something in a game and not all games can be a Disco Elysium.

Is it? That's the question because there are people who don't consider it one. It is clearly a controversial issue.
Combat (as in combat mechanics) in action CRPG need to be based on numbers and stats that makes it "pnp-like". Morrowind's combat is like that.
You seem to be very centred on what is and what isn't "considered" something. But considered by who? There are lots of people out there who would consider all kind of silly games "rpg". Games such that even you would laugh at the idea.

Frantically clicking my mouse = RPG

Actual RPG gameplay with dice rolls, exploration, meaningful choice & consequence and build variety = visual theatre

 

[Vic]

Go vote here:

https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/do-you-consider-disco-elysium-an-rpg.145760/

 

[Harthwain]

Someone name a single game in which you do not play a role.

You can't. Thus all games are roleplaying games.

Eh, not really. In some games your "role" is merely a skin. Or a preset that doesn't fundamentally change how you interact with the world or how you are perceived by it (and, as a result, how the world interacts with you). A warrior will obviously have different tools at his disposal than a mage (or a rogue). Also, you can go even further into specializations (for example; being a necromancer should present you with more unique actions than being a fire mage and carry its own set of risks).

RPGs originated from wargaming, combat is the CORE of the genre, everything else is just an addition, stories and lore only exist to make combat feel more meaningful. There is no RPG without combat.

I would put it the other way around: combat is a good addition to whatever else you can do, as a character. Another way of interacting with the world, in a sense (and something to put in an element of risk, too). However, boiling everything down to just combat simply means you don't have much to do outside of combat, meaning you're aiming more for a tactical RPG than a fully-fledged RPG. While cRPGs did start as combat games, it doesn't mean they have to keep walking that path, hence combat being seen as an option rather than a strict necessity by a lot of modern RPG players.

 

[cvv]

RPGs originated from wargaming, combat is the CORE of the genre, everything else is just an addition, stories and lore only exist to make combat feel more meaningful. There is no RPG without combat.

This.

So much drama about what is RPG all the time. I don't get it. It's so simple. There are 3 basic elements an RPG needs to have:

1. Combat (implying itemization, equipment, inventory etc.)

2. Quests (implying NPC interactions, simulating the game master element)

3. Chardev (implying an XP or other reward system)

System Shock isn't an RPG - there are quests and combat but no chardev. Disco Elysium isn't an RPG. There's quests and chardev but no combat. Can't think of any game with just chardev and combat but no NPC interactions (maybe some fighting games?) but if there are any they're not RPGs.

 

[Vic]

1. Combat (implying itemization, equipment, inventory etc.)

Disco Elysium has one mandatory fight where the outcome is determined by your character's skill plus a dice roll. It has another optional fight, too. It also has equipment that gives you various stat bonuses and an inventory to manage it.

2. Quests (implying NPC interactions, simulating the game master element)

Plenty of quests in DE

3. Chardev (implying an XP or other reward system)

DE has XP and multiple ways to build your character.

Disco Elysium isn't an RPG

Not according to your standards.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Disco Elysium has one mandatory fight where the outcome is determined by your character's skill plus a dice roll. It has another optional fight, too

Which is still played as a cyoa.

 

[Dadd]

Just call these non-games "post-RPG" and be done with it. Post-RPGs are not RPGs.

 

[Deadyawn]

Disco Elysium has one mandatory fight where the outcome is determined by your character's skill plus a dice roll. It has another optional fight, too. It also has equipment that gives you various stat bonuses and an inventory to manage it.

That's only combat in the sense that characters are fighting on screen. How you as a player engage in that "combat" is by making a dice-roll in a dialog window, which is mechanically indistinguishable from any other dice-roll you've been making for the entire game.

Disco Elysium has no combat.

 

[Vic]

How you as a player engage in that "combat" is by making a dice-roll in a dialog window

How you've built your character up to that point plays a part too. How is that different from PnP combat that people here seem to hold as the standard for what an RPG is?