Why Pentiment is an RPG and should be on this forum

[cvv]

I see we need a definition of combat now too.

 

[Dadd]

Words are incapable of describing the rpg experience. Everyone knows what an RPG is, and whether a game is an RPG or not when they play it. Only disingenuous and/or bored people pretend to not know this. Trying to define a thing you already understand is the first step towards being "gaslit" by a neo-leftist, where you end up arguing about semantics rather than focus on the actual thing you want to think about.

 

[Vic]

you make a DC to see if your character hits or misses his shot (only if you have your gun at this point), that's a combat mechanic.

 

[Vic]

Words are incapable of describing the rpg experience. Everyone knows what an RPG is, and whether a game is an RPG or not when they play it. Only disingenuous and/or bored people pretend to not know this. Trying to define a thing you already understand is the first step towards being "gaslit" by a neo-leftist, where you end up arguing about semantics rather than focus on the actual thing you want to think about.

exactly, I don't get people who say Disco Elysium is not an RPG.

 

[Deadyawn]

How you as a player engage in that "combat" is by making a dice-roll in a dialog window

How is that different from PnP combat that people here seem to hold as the standard for what an RPG is?

Well there's positioning, you take turns, you have healthpoints, etc... you get the idea: there's a whole system to mechanically support the concept of combat engaments.

In DE you either pass a dice-roll or fail it. Both produce preordained results because you are strung along the narrative that the developers made for this particular experience. That's all there is to it. That's the game.

 

[Dadd]

Words are incapable of describing the rpg experience. Everyone knows what an RPG is, and whether a game is an RPG or not when they play it. Only disingenuous and/or bored people pretend to not know this. Trying to define a thing you already understand is the first step towards being "gaslit" by a neo-leftist, where you end up arguing about semantics rather than focus on the actual thing you want to think about.

exactly, I don't get people who say Disco Elysium is not an RPG.

Because you're bored, ran out of walking sims.

 

[Vic]

Well there's positioning, you take turns, you have healthpoints, etc... you get the idea: there's a whole system to mechanically support the concept of combat engaments.

Positioning does not always matter; DE's combat scenario is turn based too; and you do have healthpoints, which iirc play a part in that combat scenario.

In DE you either pass a dice-roll or fail it. Both produce preordained results because you are strung along the narrative that the developers made for this particular experience.

Yes, that's how it works in PnP too, the GM dictates the narrative and what happens based on your DC.

That's all there is to it. That's the game.

No, that's just one combat scenario. DE is about the role playing experience, and on that it delivers: Exploration, build variety, dialogue with meaningful choice & consequence. If DE is no RPG then PS:T is less RPG.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

No, that's just one combat scenario

There are just two combat scenarios in the entire game dude

 

[Deadyawn]

Positioning does not always matter; DE's combat scenario is turn based too; and you do have healthpoints, which iirc play a part in that combat scenario.

You are missing the point. There is no meaningful distinction between what you put forth as a "combat scenario" with the rest of "scenarios" in the game. It's a dice-roll in a dialog tree. That's it.

You can also die due to your hitpoints by sitting in an uncomfortable chair, but you don't call that a "combat scenario", even though mechanically speaking there's no difference with what you propose as a "combat scenario".

Yes, that's how it works in PnP too, the GM dictates the narrative and what happens based on your DC.

But what we are discussing here is combat. A GM (or CRPG dev) just has to set up the combat encounter because there is an actual gameplay system that can play it out mechanically, with depth and variety. DE cannot boast this because it has no combat, only dice-rolls in a dialog screen.

No, that's just one combat scenario. DE is about the role playing experience, and on that it delivers: Exploration, build variety, dialogue with meaningful choice & consequence. If DE is no RPG then PS:T is less RPG.

No, I'm afraid that's really it.

You walk around and interact with the game-world through a dialog screen, occasionally making dice-rolls and skill checks while on it. No matter if it's "combat", talking, remembering a past trauma or jumping from rooftops; whatever it is, it will be resolved in a dialog screen with a dice-roll. Thats the mechanical totality of the game and no amount of exploration or build variety will change it, only alter the values of said dice-rolls.

Disco Elysium has no combat.

 

[Haba]

And it still is a better RPG that most of the shit that gets released those days.

 

[Vic]

Disco Elysium has no combat.

For all intents and purposes I can agree with that, after all it's just one fight that, like you said, is kind of static.

But, does the fact that it has no combat disqualify it from being an RPG? What if I do a pacifist run of Fallout or any other game that allows me to do so. Am I not having an "RPG experience" without killing anything?

 

[†††]

I long for the days where DE didn't shit up every conversation. Oh, how I hate the existence of such game.

 

[ropetight]

I long for the days where DE didn't shit up every conversation. Oh, how I hate the existence of such game.

And to think it looked good at first sight.
I started playing it and it bored me after couple of hours.
Somehow needy developers, trying to be edgy and smart all the time, made something that should be fun a chore.

 

[quaesta]

An rpg doesn't have to have a narrative. Character customization just isn't enough either. Pentiment is simply a casual adventure game.

In current year, it's better if RPGs don't have narrative. There might be a universe where the video game industry is filled with great writers instead of useless, talent-less hacks.

We don't live there.

I dont disagree, mind.

But an official studio will be hardpressed when people ask them why their games dont have narratives. Why not when writers are dime a dozen and nobody read their talentless writings anyway.

The true answer "because our writers suck so we avoid narratives" is NOT a good answer, no matter throwing at outsiders, or admit to inner circle.

This is office politic AND marketing aspect~

You can make the story seem deep and abstract. There's no official narrative, but the narrative is found through clues in the lore. No bad dialog/characters but still have a narrative.

 

[laclongquan]

An rpg doesn't have to have a narrative. Character customization just isn't enough either. Pentiment is simply a casual adventure game.

In current year, it's better if RPGs don't have narrative. There might be a universe where the video game industry is filled with great writers instead of useless, talent-less hacks.

We don't live there.

I dont disagree, mind.

But an official studio will be hardpressed when people ask them why their games dont have narratives. Why not when writers are dime a dozen and nobody read their talentless writings anyway.

The true answer "because our writers suck so we avoid narratives" is NOT a good answer, no matter throwing at outsiders, or admit to inner circle.

This is office politic AND marketing aspect~

You can make the story seem deep and abstract. There's no official narrative, but the narrative is found through clues in the lore. No bad dialog/characters but still have a narrative.

Problem is "making the story seem deep and abstract" is basic modus operandi of suckee writers~ Doing it that way will obscure their level of writings.

 

[luj1]

Someone name a single game in which you do not play a role.

You can't. Thus all games are roleplaying games.

Roles are not what you think.

Roles = Knight, Mage, Priest, Thief, etc.

 

[luj1]

I long for the days where DE didn't shit up every conversation. Oh, how I hate the existence of such game.

And to think it looked good at first sight.

I thought the style and setting were amazing, but then I discovered that no combat is planned.

In the end, it had only reading. Such a disappointment.

 

[JarlFrank]

Game Pass

No matter how cheap it is, no matter how good the games offered by the service: never support subscription models.

If you pay for Game Pass you are part of the problem.

 

[ArchAngel]

Game Pass

No matter how cheap it is, no matter how good the games offered by the service: never support subscription models.

If you pay for Game Pass you are part of the problem.

Well on Xbox I cannot pirate games and I am sure as hell not going to be paying 40-60 $ per game when I can get Gamepass for 15$ per month with access to 150+ games including all EA/Bethesda/Obsidian AA and AAA games.
And it is not like I need to own a game for years and play one game over and over. Gamepass actually helped me to try more different games than ever before as it is so easy to just install it, try it for few hours and remove it if it is not good/fun.
And of course there is also the question of my kid that would also want a lot of those expensive games, now I just tell the kid to play one of the 150+ games offered and shut up.

 

[ropetight]

Game Pass

No matter how cheap it is, no matter how good the games offered by the service: never support subscription models.

If you pay for Game Pass you are part of the problem.

Subscriptions are always anti-consumer, and in the end they are anti-developers/authors.
Basically, distribution monopolist forces the developers/authors to forego big percent of their income for slush fund in the manner of wholesale scalpers.

When Belmondo died, I tried to find a movie with him, Man from Rio or Professional or some other old school action movie, on my friends Netflix.
Not a single movie with one of the biggest international stars ever, but a bunch of overstretched (8 episodes, when in reality there is material for one) documentaries about every kind of serial killer, animal, food or tons of serialized woke propaganda.
You had much better choice in your small local video rental store in 80s.
I ended obtaining complete filmography from popular site for shareware materials.

I hope Netflix, Disney+, XBOX Live, Playstation Plus, Epic Store and all other scammers all go out of the business.
But I'm afraid they will take down whole industries and mediums in the process, like Marvel and DC did to American comics.

 

[JarlFrank]

Xbox

If you own a console you are part of the problem.

 

[ArchAngel]

Xbox

If you own a console you are part of the problem.

Few years ago I would agree with you but since gaming PCs have become way too expensive and introduction of lot of at least decent games to gamepass it is different now.
I could buy Xbox Series X + 1 year of gamepass subscription or graphics card and empty PC tower to put it into and then 4 games per year for the price of that gamepass.
I just chose what I could afford.
My old PCs is old and buying a new one is not something that will happen for a long while and it is now getting even worse every year in EU.

 

[ArchAngel]

Game Pass

No matter how cheap it is, no matter how good the games offered by the service: never support subscription models.

If you pay for Game Pass you are part of the problem.

Subscriptions are always anti-consumer, and in the end they are anti-developers/authors.
Basically, distribution monopolist forces the developers/authors to forego big percent of their income for slush fund in the manner of wholesale scalpers.

When Belmondo died, I tried to find a movie with him, Man from Rio or Professional or some other old school action movie, on my friends Netflix.
Not a single movie with one of the biggest international stars ever, but a bunch of overstretched (8 episodes, when in reality there is material for one) documentaries about every kind of serial killer, animal, food or tons of serialized woke propaganda.
You had much better choice in your small local video rental store in 80s.
I ended obtaining complete filmography from popular site for shareware materials.

I hope Netflix, Disney+, XBOX Live, Playstation Plus, Epic Store and all other scammers all go out of the business.
But I'm afraid they will take down whole industries and mediums in the process, like Marvel and DC did to American comics.

Maybe that is easy to say when you live in a rich country where 90% of your monthly paycheck is not going into survival. I have pirated games my whole life (or bought them on steep discounts through KS or years later) but with gamepass I am actually sending some money to developers. I can afford 15$ per month, I cannot afford 40+$ each month (or 2 months) to buy new games. (well on Xbox you need to pay for Online service anyways and this way it gets bundled into Gamepass Ultimate, so I am saving money even if I was buying games.)

Sure if I lived in Germany or some other colonial power in EU I could also look at others from my high horse.

And yes, I am still pirating almost all games I can still play on my old PC (I still got Win7 so I cannot use Game pass on it :D)

 

[just]

if you play games you're part of the problem

 

[ropetight]

Game Pass

No matter how cheap it is, no matter how good the games offered by the service: never support subscription models.

If you pay for Game Pass you are part of the problem.

Subscriptions are always anti-consumer, and in the end they are anti-developers/authors.
Basically, distribution monopolist forces the developers/authors to forego big percent of their income for slush fund in the manner of wholesale scalpers.

When Belmondo died, I tried to find a movie with him, Man from Rio or Professional or some other old school action movie, on my friends Netflix.
Not a single movie with one of the biggest international stars ever, but a bunch of overstretched (8 episodes, when in reality there is material for one) documentaries about every kind of serial killer, animal, food or tons of serialized woke propaganda.
You had much better choice in your small local video rental store in 80s.
I ended obtaining complete filmography from popular site for shareware materials.

I hope Netflix, Disney+, XBOX Live, Playstation Plus, Epic Store and all other scammers all go out of the business.
But I'm afraid they will take down whole industries and mediums in the process, like Marvel and DC did to American comics.

Maybe that is easy to say when you live in a rich country where 90% of your monthly paycheck is not going into survival. I have pirated games my whole life (or bought them on steep discounts through KS or years later) but with gamepass I am actually sending some money to developers. I can afford 15$ per month, I cannot afford 40+$ each month (or 2 months) to buy new games.

Sure if I lived in Germany or some other colonial power in EU I could also look at others from my high horse.

You should pirate all shitty AAA games and only pay for games that you really like.
It is cheaper and more honorable than paying subscription to those leeches.