Wizard's Crown

[DaveO]

While plate mail sounds good, you are far more likely to find the lower strength requirement armor that is worth enchanting(+2 or higher). You can also find Wizard's items in the game that far exceed the magic bonus you'll receive from enchanting items. IF you create a character with 16 strength, Brigantine armor is the highest protection you get. There is NO advantage for choosing high strength scores at character creation. I'd say develop strength only if you find equipment worth the improvement. The +2 Broadsword only needs 12 strength. That would be the highest I'd go.

Every strength point past 16 needs an additional 4 points of strength to increase damage by one.

As far as ability scores go, some could go to 100-150 and then you can stop. Skills that don't show up in the sequel(with the exception of Haggle) are best stopped at 150-175 points. I'd put 175 in Evaluate Magic for the inevitable night time fights you'll eventually have to do.

 

[Deuce Traveler]

I defeated the game after grinding to Day 163, maxing out everyone's combat skills, and bumping each character to 30 Dexterity and 16 Strength (followed by HP increases). Oh, and by finding and bettering a ton of magic equipment. So I came in here for props, but now realize that the achievement isn't all that great considering how poor the game is.

At first, I tried to beat the game by cheating. I was going to join the forces of evil and call it done, but that didn't go well... I was going to add a spoiler section for this, but does anyone truly care?

Curse your sudden, yet inevitable betrayal!

So I defeated the game the legit way. Here is how it goes:

Whee! I won't move on to the Eternal Dagger. This was more a painful grind than an enjoyable retro. We sometimes have to call a bad game, a bad game. The character generation and tactical combat are actually pretty damn good, but the quest pacing, fictional world, and dungeon design are all horrible in every way. Oh, and there are some bugs, such as when my dead priest was able to unpoison a fellow character. :D Or maybe he's just that good. Ok, I'm moving on to an RPG that is more fun. It shouldn't be too hard to find one. I do suggest the Phantasie series over this, if someone wants to play some CRPGs from SSI of this era, and the Gold Box D&D games from the same company when they figured out how to better blend tactical gameplay to quest pacing and dungeon design.

 

[octavius]

Congrats on beating this game!
How hard was the final battle?

 

[Deuce Traveler]

I had to use a walkthrough. First, you have to examine a wall in order to find the clue to the wizard's lair, but then you have to examine an empty space opposite of the wall in order to open the passage to said lair. I never would have figured that out.

Then you encounter the wizard and his minions, but the wizard can't be killed with magical weapons; only non-magical weapons. I had no idea at first what the hell was going on at first, as the party easily defeated the minions in auto-combat but couldn't injure the final big bad. When I tried to fight the last battle the demon minions teleported past my blocking shield wall and started to hack-up my rear forces. It took between one and two rounds for my fighters to take out just one of these minions, but they were knocking out my heroes just as fast. I reloaded, gave my party normal weapons, then decided to try the auto-battle version. Maybe I'm wrong about how the computer calculates how fights go, because my party easily defeated the minions and their master. I switched the party back to their magical weapons, healed up, headed out, kicked the butt of some demons that blocked me from the final dungeon exit and a few steps of the world map, then was home free. Three fighter-priests were able to keep up with the wounded with little problem.

Oh, I did have trouble in that last dungeon with 24 high demons that attacked the party, but ran into a glitch. I got rid of auto-combat and tried to drag the high demons toward my characters a bit at a time. Both parties cast mass invisibility, but then lost each other. While I waited far off for the magic to wear off (and to hopefully be able to attack them piecemeal) the combat ended due to inactivity and I was able to press on despite not killing one of them. Hey, a win is a win.

 

[DaveO]

Eternal Dagger does not have the same grinding problem that Wizard's Crown does. Enemy encounters do stop as you clear out areas. The dungeon design is more interesting and varied. Unfortunately, the transferring damage weapons that you can buy break the game design. You can also use quick casting of spells almost exclusively since the game days are very short and you have to rest often(another example of broken design). Slaying weapons are a nifty idea(triple damage versus the enemy type). The story is a bit better than Wizard's Crown, which barely has a story in my opinion.

 

[DaveO]

I'm going to super-necro this thread due to the party discussions. You could beat Wizard's Crown with a pure Sorcerer in your party. Ranger/Sorcerer should be seriously considered as an alternative. Pure Fighters are also a way to VERY quickly develop for Tarmon earlier. Multiclassing a Fighter with Thief/Ranger only costs 1 Intelligence point more than a Priest). You could probably finish the game within day 100 IF you are focused on the skills(150 or higher) and a good Dexterity(I'd recommend no higher than 20). I'm surprised Sorcerer/Priest was attempted due to the huge experience sink. Eternal Dagger has a pregenerated Ranger/Sorcerer/Priest and I remember how much time I had to spend before I could finally use the skills of all three classes. Triple classing Sorcerers in Wizard's Crown(Fighter/Sorcerer/Ranger or Thief) is possible but you'll either pay a price for stats or Life. The ONLY reason I went with my party of four multiclassed priests(two Fighter/Priest/Rangers and two Fighter/Priest/Thieves with four fighter/wizards was to exploit Luck for the front rank fighters and to use the party for Eternal Dagger. Given the bonus of 9 Strength, 9 Dexterity(max in game is 30), and 45 Life if you get the reward twice(no reason not to in my opinion), your party should have stats more powerful than any generated character in Eternal Dagger.

 

[Country_Gravy]

I'm going to super-necro this thread due to the party discussions. You could beat Wizard's Crown with a pure Sorcerer in your party. Ranger/Sorcerer should be seriously considered as an alternative. Pure Fighters are also a way to VERY quickly develop for Tarmon earlier. Multiclassing a Fighter with Thief/Ranger only costs 1 Intelligence point more than a Priest). You could probably finish the game within day 100 IF you are focused on the skills(150 or higher) and a good Dexterity(I'd recommend no higher than 20). I'm surprised Sorcerer/Priest was attempted due to the huge experience sink. Eternal Dagger has a pregenerated Ranger/Sorcerer/Priest and I remember how much time I had to spend before I could finally use the skills of all three classes. Triple classing Sorcerers in Wizard's Crown(Fighter/Sorcerer/Ranger or Thief) is possible but you'll either pay a price for stats or Life. The ONLY reason I went with my party of four multiclassed priests(two Fighter/Priest/Rangers and two Fighter/Priest/Thieves with four fighter/wizards was to exploit Luck for the front rank fighters and to use the party for Eternal Dagger. Given the bonus of 9 Strength, 9 Dexterity(max in game is 30), and 45 Life if you get the reward twice(no reason not to in my opinion), your party should have stats more powerful than any generated character in Eternal Dagger.

Thread is worth necro'ing. Your post made me put WC and ED on my list of old school games from my childhood to play with my son. Right under Ultima 4. He has already played Bard's Tale due to having them on Steam.

There seems to be a growing amount of young kids who don't mind the old school graphics and are focused on gameplay. Maybe in 20 years we will see gems like these games again.

 

[Carlos' Bitch1]

I always enjoyed the combat and party building of these games. The other elements were standard fare though. Natuk is probably the most modern version of this game type for those that enjoy them.

 

[Country_Gravy]

I always enjoyed the combat and party building of these games. The other elements were standard fare though. Natuk is probably the most modern version of this game type for those that enjoy them.

At the time I think that these games surpassed the Gold Box games for turn based combat.

 

[octavius]

I found Nahlakh and Natuk superior to Wizard's Crown myself. DaveO, you really should try them if you haven't.
Together with Disciples of Steel I think they were the CRPGs with the best tactical combat of the DOS era, even better than the Gold Box games.

 

[Carlos' Bitch1]

I always enjoyed the combat and party building of these games. The other elements were standard fare though. Natuk is probably the most modern version of this game type for those that enjoy them.

At the time I think that these games surpassed the Gold Box games for turn based combat.

I agree. I have always thought it was a shame that the only developers that continued to use and improve this system was a couple of indie developers. It isn't like the system is all that difficult to use either, as most of the calculations are under the hood. Knights of Legend also has a very good combat system that would have been excellent if refined and used in an improved game system. Perhaps another developer will run with them at some stage...

 

[DaveO]

Out of curiosity, I tried the Apple version of Wizard's Crown with AppleWin emulation. It seems that undead are more resistant to Turn Undead than I recall on the Atari version. Also, Luck seems to be an all or nothing investment for Apple. Your priests will need Luck at 200 to have a chance to use the one-handed defensive items.

 

[DaveO]

I went into night fighting in the ruins of Arghan on game day 31 for the Apple emulator version. This is the earliest I ever attempted to do so, but the experience bonus I was getting during the day was getting minimal. My party got VERY good equipment from the trip although I still had to use the temple in the southwest corner due to almost 250 experience points after specifically improving skills so that I might avoid maxing out. My party with my current session is 3 Fighter/Sorcerers, 3 Fighter/Priests, and 2 Fighter/Ranger/Thieves. I thought I had enough Power to keep casting Foxfire for each fight, but using a torch is far better to save Power for battle versus enemy mages.

I wanted to try something different than the four priests and four sorcerers I went with for the Atari 800 emulator run. In retrospect, triple classing Priests with the exception of possibly the Ranger class costs a LOT of experience management that my current party has not encountered much besides the early game where you should develop those CRUCIAL early game skills(Weapon skills, Haggle, Search, Karma, Turn Undead, and Evaluate). You could use a person with a good Scan skill to substitute while a character develops both Stealth and Scan(needed for a good point person), but you will run into occasional ambushes. One HUGE mistake I made for previous runs is in regards to defensive potions. You have to use them during the fight in order to get a benefit, so my previous comments about Shield being useless later are not valid. At least the defensive potions sell for fairly good money.

 

[DaveO]

I'm not sure if AppleWin 1.29.13.0 is causing my game to be slightly bugged. I've made numerous runs where I get over 200 experience per night trip. The amount of gold I get per trip due to treasure usually runs over 250 gold. In Wizard's Crown, you can use claymores with 11 strength but this was changed to 12 in Eternal Dagger. My fighter/priest anchoring the right flank has one equipped(though he was created with 12 strength). My crossbow fighter/sorcerer added 1 to strength to also use claymores(I have one fairly good one and another with almost full life drain damage). I'm nearing the end game on my Aplle version due to the generous gold and experience, as well as having three defensive items for most of the characters. I'll definitely port this group over to Eternal Dagger on the Apple version.

 

[latmagicman]

How do you improve stats like Strength and Dexterity? There is no option in the Improve - its only skills. I'm playing dosbox version.

 

[latmagicman]

Oh, you need 100 experience to see the option in the list. my bad for not seeing this earlier in the thread

 

[DaveO]

Feel free to ask other questions! I'm nearing the end of my Apple version run and I have also played the Atari version. Let us know what party you created, and I hope you have some fun. I do admit the dungeons are quite bare bone, and DON'T attack anybody in the Rusty Nail Inn. You'll lose a LOT of money in the process.

 

[newtmonkey]

DaveO

Are there any noticeable differences between the Atari and Apple versions (other than graphics)? I'm interested in eventually playing both this and its sequel, and of the systems with both (C64, Atari, Apple I think?) I find the Atari graphics the most appealing.

 

[Country_Gravy]

I had a C64 as my first computer. I haven't played this in years and last time was the C64 version. I would also like to know the differences if anyone know and wants to flex their Wizard's Crown knowledge. Otherwise I will just try them out some day.

 

[DaveO]

From playing both the Apple and Atari versions, Apple has the massive experience bonus from doing night fights versus the Atari version. Apple also seems to affect both Luck and Turn Undead slightly. Apple seems a bit more unforgiving for both skills, but Luck is effective at 200 skill for any priests you create. I have three Fighter/Priests in my Apple run. Using a Priest means that the Shield skill does not need to be developed as much as another Fighter character with a shield. A Priest can get by with 150 on the shield skill, whereas a regular fighter character should have at minimum 200 skill points. Add Shield with Luck and Priests are in my opinion borderline gamebreaking. Also, just use bucklers(small item) instead of a shield(medium item) to get more treasure. The graphics are not that much different between Apple and Atari. Given my version of AppleWin WITH the experience boost from night fights, I have to say the Apple version is the best to get to the end quicker. I still have a soft spot for the Atari version due to growing up with an Atari 800.

 

[latmagicman]

Here's my party setup all starting with 16 strength:
1 Fighter w/ greatsword
1 Mage
2 Fighter/Mages w/ greatsword
3 Fighter/Priests - one w/ +2 broadword and shield and the other two handed (greataxe and large flail)
1 Ranger/thief w/ longbow and heavy spear

I made a couple (big) mistakes:
1. I used the starting party for a while (20 days?) and then rerolled the above setup. By this time I had cleared the inner walls and it made it really hard to win fights and level up my new chars.
2. I didn't know how to improve dex and life until finding out I needed 100 experience. My fighter/mages had 6 starting dex, 25 life, and would never get turns before they were beat up/killed.
3. I didn't know that there is some upper limit on max number of days (200) and wasn't using my time well.

I'm currently on day 144, and can't ever beat a group of veteran adventures to go for magic plate. I'm sporting all +60 life blast weapons and various levels of vials/bottles/cloaks/rings/crowns/bracelets and +2 or +3 chain/brig/scale armor, but still feel like I must be short on dex. I am possibly going to the palace soon but may need to grind a few more levels of dex first.

 

[DaveO]

I'd recommend 20 for your dexterity in order to tackle the Palace. I just got done there and am getting ready for the return trek. Both my power and karma took a hit, so I'll try returning via the most direct route. I saw how nasty the Poison spell was against a few characters that were hit by it. They either dropped unconscoius or were killed. I had three character deaths in the Palace, and I was prepared with magical defensive items as well as magical and sharp/very sharp weapons.

 

[DaveO]

I just made it back for my first return trip to the Palace. I had four regeneration jars and vials saved from earlier trips in the ruins. I had two left over as well as one armor item with the Regeneration spell. Apple seems much more generous with regeneration items than I recall on the Atari version. My Sorcerer with Evaluate had 63 morale loss, but was still able to identify items. I guess 100 skill is sufficient overall since I had Evaluate at 175. I also beat a few groups of Dragons and Veteran Adventurers on my way back. Worth the treasure and experience!

I used all of the money from what I had saved plus what I got from selling all the treasure I got from the Palace and I trained my characters from day 156 or so to day 77 of the next year. I'll be doing a few more trips in the ruins to afford more training to get all the other skills to 100.

EDIT - I changed my mind in regards to getting more money for training for the moment. I decided to do another run of the Palace on the hardest difficulty to get the reward a second time. I lost one of my regeneration jars due to use on the way to the Palace and I have two items with it left, one on armor and the other in the jar.

 

[latmagicman]

Did you go through the entire palace or just some to clear it out a bit? I'm doing a bit better now that my dex is around 14 minimum for my party, but I don't think I'll have time to get it to that 20 target you recommended since I'm at day 155 now. My skills (eval, haggle, cast spell, weapon skill, karma) are maxed at 250 and others above 200 (luck, turn undead, scan, stealth, search) since I did that before knowing about the 100 per attribute thing early =/ I've downed a few veteran adventurers but no magic plate yet. I'm holding out to upgrade plate armor and just doing the ring-like defensive stuff for now.

 

[latmagicman]

I finally got a +1 plate mail! It's not better than what I have currently but after 200 gold it will be! I'm at day 173 and going to try a trial run through the palace soon to see how my party stacks up.