Wizard's Crown

[octavius]

So is the Poison spell any use? Cast it on a Huge Rat in round one, and now there's only a few rats left, including the Huge Rat at full health.

 

[Flux_Capacitor]

I honestly don't ever remember using that spell. Its possible its one of those things implemented more for enemies than for the player.

 

[Zombra]

Like many things in Wizard's Crown, I used the Poison spell a lot without knowing whether or not it did anything. It made me feel better.

Ranger/Sorc, interesting idea F_C. Makes sense.

 

[DaveO]

The Poison spell is like being poisoned by enemies. Damage takes several turns to inflict more damage.

 

[Fatty]

I'm rockin this group. Not that anyone cares. Never multi-classed before, probably went overboard this time:

F/P Flail
F/S Sword
F/T Axe/Haggle
F/P Mace
P/R/F Spear/Shield
T/F Crossbow/CC stealth
S/R Bow
R/S Hvy Spear

 

[Zombra]

Hey, I care

 

[Bio Force Ape]

The main problem is the lack of visual feedback.

This bothered me so much I gave up on the game (long ago playing on Apple 2). It could have benefited a great deal from something like health bars above everyone's heads.

 

[DaveO]

I know there are multiple Atari 800 emulators out there. I'd recommend choosing one that allows save states. I found an Apple emulator a LONG time ago that does allow save states. I created a new party of the following characters:
F/R - Flail/Crossbow(back left flank guard): 12 Str, 16 Dex
F/R - Axe(front left flank): 8 Str, 20 Dex
F/T - Sword: 12 Str, 16 Dex
F/T - Bow: 8 Str, 20 Dex
F/P - Mace: 10 Str, 15 Dex
F/P - Spear: 10 Str, 15 Dex
F/S - Bow: 8 Str, 14 Dex
F/S - Spear: 10 Str, 10 Dex. I'll use this character for Evaluate Magic and building up Power+Cast Spell.

 

[octavius]

I'm using the Atari800Win Plus 4.1
It's quite easy to use, and have both save state and screen capping functions, but finding the needed ROMs was not easy.

 

[octavius]

My God how sick and tired I get of my guys hitting and doing no damage, or attacks being deflected by shields!!!

And why the fucking hell can enemies like lowlife Brigands just insta kill my characters?!?

And funnily enough, Poison does work when enemies cast it. My best fighter with 40 HP suddenly went down after a couple of rounds, but a Huge Rat I cast Poison on was at full health after several rounds.

Enemy spell casters seem to have infinite Power?

I'm starting to hate this game.

This is just too mind numblingly tedious.
The game has some good ideas, but the ultra unfriendly UI, and enemies that takes forever to kill and who also seem to cheat ruins it.

 

[Zombra]

I'm starting to hate this game.
This is just too mind numblingly tedious.

I'm impressed you've stuck with it this long It was great for its time, but I can't imagine playing it today.

 

[Flux_Capacitor]

I know its a bit lame, but if you just want to get through the game, use Quick Combat. Oddly, I find my party often fares better when I use it, and it is loads faster.

 

[octavius]

I know its a bit lame, but if you just want to get through the game, use Quick Combat. Oddly, I find my party often fares better when I use it, and it is loads faster.

That's not my experience. Several times I've (state) saved at the choose combat screen, chosen Quick Combat and been wiped out. But when I reload I can win by playing turn based.

The problem for me with Wizard's Crown is not that it's so hard, it's that you are constantly fighting against a very user unfriendly interface:

Facing is important, but there's no visual feedback which way you characters or monster are facing.

Same with "Engaged". The program does not tell you which monsters are engaged in combat or not.

All actions cost movement points, but the game never tells you how many you start with, how many you use and how many you have left. For a game that is all about control, it feels very lame to leave this to trial and error. At least in the GB games you could at least redo your movement of running out of points.

Aiming at enemies in one turn will make them much easier to hit next turn and make more damage, but the game does not fucking track it for you. If you have several characters aiming you need to write down their actions. Unless you have very good memory, you will not remember what all your guys were doing the previous turn after all 25 enemies have had their turn. The game remembers that you did aim at one of those 25 enemies, but it will not fucking tell you which one. Hitting the attack key will not center the cursor on the enemy in your aim. Hell, the program even lets you aim again, which means if you don't keep proper track you can even forget if you aimed at an enemy in the first place. Also, you can aim even if your crossbow is not loaded!
The fucking program doesn't even remember the last enemy you attacked, so each turn you have to retarget your enemy or risk hitting the wrong one (you usually want to hit those wounded or facing away from you).

So there is a huge discrepancy between all the minutea of the tactical combat and the feedback the game gives you to handle it.
In the end I felt I was fighting more against the UI than against the various monsters.

A damned shame, as with better control(s) it would have been an excellent early dungeon crawler.
I really liked the class/skills system, encounter design, and loot. The Praying was also interesting and an original way of restoring health to party members, but this aspect of the game was actually much less hardcore than it was in Demon's Winter. The latter feels a bit like a natural evolution between Wizard's Crown and the Gold Box games, and was much more playable than WC.

 

[DaveO]

If you're not having fun, you don't have to play the game. You could try Eternal Dagger since it opens the character offensive options more than Wizard's Crown does. The only reasons to play Wizard's Crown are the tactical combat and to get a better starting party for Eternal Dagger.

 

[octavius]

If you're not having fun, you don't have to play the game. You could try Eternal Dagger since it opens the character offensive options more than Wizard's Crown does. The only reasons to play Wizard's Crown are the tactical combat and to get a better starting party for Eternal Dagger.

Is the UI improved in Eternal Dagger? The UI is my main beef with WC. And how much will it hurt starting with new characters?

But I think I'll add Tom Proudfoot's games Natuk and Nahlak back on my play list. From what I've read they are similar to WC, but much more user friendly. The main poblem I had when Nahlak was next on my play list was that I was unbale to find any manual for it.

 

[DaveO]

Well, unfortunately the user interface is almost the same. You have a limit of up to 3 Sorcerers and 3 Priests in Eternal Dagger. In terms of skills and character power, you're behind in terms of the attributes, skills, and life. Basically, you're 1500-3000 experience points lower than a Wizard's Crown party. Most characters in ED are best designed for 12 or 16 strength.

 

[Deuce Traveler]

I am now on Day 13 with the following party:

Traveler, Fighter/Priest, 50 Life, 168 Axe, 42 Treat Poison, 68 Turn Undead, 100 Karma
Natasha, Fighter/Priest, 50 Life, 200 Mace, 54 Treat Disease, 100 Turn Undead, 100 Karma
Tea, Fighter/Priest, 50 Life, 164 Flail, 67 Turn Undead, 100 Karma
Jen, Fighter/Ranger, 50 Life, 188 Spear, 104 Scan, 100 Stealth, 43 Swimming
Jade, Fighter/Thief, 50 Life, 177 Bow, 38 Search, 104 Disarm Trap
Leia, Fighter/Thief, 50 Life, 196 Sword, 83 Search, 103 Pick Lock
Kitten, Fighter/Sorcerer, 40 Life, 45 Crossbow, 63 Read Ancient, 167 Cast Spell, Power 25
Kaitlynn, Fighter/Sorcerer, 40 Life, 67 Crossbow, 97 Evaluate Magic, 160 Cast Spell, Power 25

The top 6 characters have a Strength of 16, two-handed weapons, and plate mail while the sorcerers wield crossbows and brigadine. I started out with the minimum skill points for each, and I chose fighter as the secondary class for reasons of weapon and armor flexibility. At first I spread skill points evenly, but then I noticed that I wasn't faring well enough against harder enemies as I advanced. Switching to combat skills for now resulted in better kill results. Thugs were easy to kill in the beginning, but Thieves wiped out my party until I got combat skills over 75 points. Then bandits caused me grief until I got past 125 points. Now I am taking on larger parties of skeletons, feral dogs, and just barely beating goblins. I'll probably continue like this until everyone has combat skill points over 200, then start bumping up support skills and actively looking for quests to solve.

So far I met an old man in a park, rescued a girl and met her father for the magic broadsword reward, and cleared out the city of criminal bands which resulted in a monetary reward from the city mayor.

I am having a lot more time than Octavius, but I mostly do auto battle unless I think the fight will be too close for the AI. I have save scummed often on my DOSBox emulator, since you really kind of have to do so. You might encounter a group of thugs in a poor section of town one moment, then go explore the same spot at the start of the game and find a band of assassins that easily wipe out your starting party without you even dealing one casualty in return. So while Octavius is playing a tactical RPG, I'm playing more of a team management exploration game and not going insane in the process.

 

[octavius]

Nice to see you hanging in there and enjoying the game.
Your party looks very good; much better than the first one you had.

Have you grinded a lot? Your characters have much better stats than my guys did on Day 10, and they were already exploring the corners of the first sector of the ruins. Looks like there are Assassins in the NW corner, Brigangs further south and Goblins in the SE.
Maybe grinding and using quick combat is the sane way to play this game?

 

[Deuce Traveler]

All that I am really doing right now is grinding to build up power. I figured I'd do questing after I made the party survivable. They now can take on three straight weaker encounters in the ruins before having to find a temple and meditate for restored karma, so I am hopeful that I can stop grinding in a few more game days.

The funny thing is that a lot of the frustrations I encountered in this game brought back a lot of memories of playing this game more than two decades ago. Such as trying to use bandages (I think you can't use them unless they are IDed, which makes no sense). There is a building east of the entrance to the ruins that I haven't found anything inside yet. Not even random encounters. There is a pool inside the structure I'm thinking of exploring with my best swimmer, but I think it is funny because I remember my younger self wondering what the hell was up with the otherwise empty building. It is nice to know that the problems I ran into when I was young was more due to the game and not my lack of experience.

 

[Deuce Traveler]

My characters were just robbed by giant scorpions. Not killed, but robbed as in mugged. This game...

Since I won't get far with my armor and weapons stolen, I reloaded and noticed that all my gold is gone. The only place this could have happened was when I met and discussed where to go next to a Master Thief hidden in a secret room. There goes my 40gp I built up over 14 days.

I am actually having to use a walkthrough to find out where to go. I would never had found the Master Thief otherwise, because the sequence of events you have to perform are so specific that I doubt I would have ever figured it out on my own. Basically, you have to go to a particular tavern and find a secret door. But the secret door could only be found with a thief character acting independently of the group and searching the space in front of him. I would have used my ranger/fighter to take point and would never have separated a character from the party.

I've gotten this far, though, and so I'll see the game finished, but I'm going to stick to the walkthrough. Normally I wouldn't lean on such a crutch, but this game is unforgiving in the constrained ways to solve puzzles.

 

[Zombra]

My characters were just robbed by giant scorpions. Not killed, but robbed as in mugged. This game...

Thank you! Best laugh I've had all night

 

[Deuce Traveler]

Ok, some more 'stuff' I learned about this game. First, loss of morale is connected to the damage characters take. I fought two fights against giant spiders and skeletons without anyone in the party taking damage. When I checked character status, each character had two morale loss points, meaning they probably pick up 1 point of morale loss after each battle even if never hurt. Severe injuries cost more morale points, and death the most, though I haven't broken the code further when it comes to particular points.

This may be the only CRPG that I ever played where character advancement speeds along faster as the game progresses, instead of in D&D based systems where your strongest leap is between first and second level, and then experience points are harder to come by. This may seem an exaggeration since skills will only advance with every purchase by 1-8 from skill levels 0-100, then slow to 1-4 from 101-150, 1-2 from 151-200, then 1 for every buy over 200 skill points. Yet, as my characters become stronger I'm gaining more experience points. At first, fighting thugs got me around 12 experience points a day. I am now on day 27 and am accumulating 50 experience points a day. Since I have 200 points in all my combat-related skills that my characters are specializing in, I am now spending those experience points on Strength ability scores so I can put my sorcerers into plate mail armor and switch them to heavy crossbows for support, and Dexterity ability scores for everyone else so they can move much faster than our opponents. This is beginning to really pay off.

Auto Combat doesn't really work against forces that have mages. I think this is because the game actually does set up each side in set piece battle and fights the battles out instead of just using some kind of point value based on each sides statistics and arbitrarily assigning damage. The computer AI makes your party fight the closer opponents first, allowing the enemy mages to throw spell after spell from the rear ranks and wipe your side out with ease.

I can't find much to do except fight and grind, so I looked again at a walktrhough and found out you only have four dungeons to explore. I already cleared the Thieves Guild and the ruins of the old Thieves Guild, but I am unable to go down to the next part, the mansion, because a force of imps and demons kill me each time. So I am back to grinding for ability scores again. Once I get my characters to 20 strength and 20 dexterity, I'll probably build up some more of my character's support skills and see if I can push further.

The walkthrough suggests building all of your specific combat skills and support skills to 200, the working on your ability scores, but really I think you should only build the combat skills to 200, then the support skills to 100, then ability scores. I actually find loot less important at the get-go then boosting your Dexterity. If you have a character with 20 Dexterity, he can work twice for every one time an enemy with 10 Dexterity gets to move. It's like creating permanent Haste effects. I'd rather have a party that can win a series of battles while minimizing injuries as I put a higher value on rate of experience point collection that I do loot or money. On the other hand, I am only now beginning to find magical equipment for my characters and I still haven't enchanted any of my party's weapons at the enchanter (he charges 50 gp!).

There really isn't much to this game. It's a bare bone tactical simulator with a few boring dungeons thrown in almost as an after thought. The purpose is to grind, grind, grind until you can survive a little deeper into the ruins in succeeding efforts. Wash, rinse and repeat to victory.

 

[octavius]

Nice report. It confirms that I didn't miss much by quitting.
I think it must be one of those game you can only love if you grew up with it.

I'm surprised that you are only now beginning to find magical equipment for your characters. Or do you meam powerful magic items, like +5 or better?
When I quit I had several magical armour, a+1 Shield or two, and a couple of nice magical crossbows (did a lot of damage if you spent one round aiming and then managed to pick the same enemy out of the 25 next round).

 

[Flux_Capacitor]

I don't know if I would bother a whole lot with Str, even to get up to using Plate Mail. When first creating characters, I only gave them 30 Life, some points into Str (12 for my fighters), and dumped the rest into Dex. I haven't put anything into any stats yet, am roughly where you are, and don't seem to be having as many problems. My skills are higher, though, as I've more or less maxed all weapon skills, and a lot of the support skills. If your Karma isn't at 250 yet, get it there as soon as possible. I would also recommend getting Search (for more drops), Evaluate Magic (for identifying items), and Haggle (for more money) high, at least over 100 for the first two. Morale loss will quickly lower their values.

I don't feel like the Str gain is much worth it. I don't know if you'll be lucky enough to find enchanted plate mail for your entire party. If you weren't aware, in order to enchant something, the item must already be enchanted. You can't just go buy some at the store and enchant it. Also, I probably wouldn't bother with shields. You can find enchanted jars/vials, which when enchanted to +5, give 10 defense to most damage types, which all around is probably better than a +5 shield. And shields can break or be avoided by flails.

It also sounds like I've been luckier with equipment find that you. Search for undead, as they often have incredible drops. After a fairly early ruins battle, I found a +5 Battle Axe, and +2 Brigantine. Head directly SE from the ruins entrance, and there's a small patch of forest. I got a couple undead encounters there. There's another area around the temple SSW of the entrance.

 

[TigerKnee]

Guess I'm skipping this, the interface sounds like hell.

Though Demon's Winter still a go but I probably need to review the manual.