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Wizard's Crown

octavius

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This game is extremely slow.
Two fights vs Thugs and one vs Assassins and all I've got is 13 measly XP...

Assassins were nasty and surprised me. I sure was glad I had three Priests with 60 Karma each.

I made the following characters:
Fighter
Fighter/Thief (haggler)
Fighter/Thief (point guy and searcher)
Fighter/Priests x2
Ranger/Priest
Fighter/Sorceror (caster)
Fighter/Sorceror (evaluate items)

All Priests start with 60 Karma. Looks like burning up as many starting points as possible on XP may be a good idea, since a Priest's starting skill in Turn Undead and Luck is half the starting XP?
 
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Deuce Traveler

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Grab the Codex by the pussy Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
I can't remember the details of the game, but I do remember playing this while young and I had the same issue you did on the length of time it took to gather experience points. The slow development of my party was one reason I eventually abandoned the game, but I wasn't all that patient in my youth. Does the manual suggest a faster way to gain XP? I wonder if there are some areas that give bonus XP when you pass certain parts of the game.

CRPGAddict quitted it early: http://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/search/label/Wizard's Crown
 

DaveO

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If you want a shortcut on experience, go back to the inn every time you get seven or more experience points and you should get 10 more experience. Eventually, this won't work but it does make a difference early. You WON'T be finishing the game any time soon, and character progression is slow. You have 200 game days to complete the game, and eventually you'll have to do night fights to get decent experience.
 

DaveO

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You could always play Eternal Dagger and then backtrack to Wizard's Crown. You can create three sorcerers and three priests in the sequel. An imported party is not limited(an advantage for playing and completing Wizard's Crown).
 

Country_Gravy

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Sir Frederick is bad ass. I remember doing the inn over and over for some early loot and XP. I think it was also advantageous to get the magic sword from the area north of town early as it helped cut down thugs quickly. And turn undead did wonders for quickly finishing fights in the graveyard.
 

octavius

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You could always play Eternal Dagger and then backtrack to Wizard's Crown. You can create three sorcerers and three priests in the sequel. An imported party is not limited(an advantage for playing and completing Wizard's Crown).

You mean you can actually import characters into WC from ED?
That's interesting, but sounds too much like cheating for my taste.
 

DaveO

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You can't import characters from Eternal Dagger backwards into Wizard's Crown. I suggested Eternal Dagger so that you could get an idea in regards to character progression or get used to the game system.

In terms of character development, consider Dexterity your "initiative" score. The higher your Dexterity is in Wizard's Crown, the more often you can act. It is far better to use the lowest strength score possible with the exception of using the +2 Broadsword which needs 12 strength. You can get away with having only 8 for strength to use some lower equipment(handaxe and shortbow come to mind). Dual classes are fine for sorcerers and priests. You probably should make any characters that are not a sorcerer or priest at least a dual if not triple class. Ranger class allows some combat ability, although you can't use a shield if don't have the Fighter class. Ranger does have decent skills that you can develop that can help Priests a bit like First Aid.
 

Zombra

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I haven't played since back in the day, but as I remember the only classes that couldn't stand alone were Priest and Thief. Fighters and Sorcs have plenty to do in combat of course, and even though Rangers* are a little weaker, they still have plenty of worthwhile skills to develop and hold their own. But a pure Priest or Thief (or Priest/Thief) will be kind of a waste as they don't have a lot to do in fights.

My memory is that multi-multi-multiclassing was kind of wasteful ... pure Fighters and pure Sorcs can definitely pull their weight. Lots of multiclassing just means that every character has tons of skills to budget XP for. Single classing means you can max critical skills a lot sooner. Better to go over all the skills and get one character to cover each, and minimize the number of classes in the party so you have more stat points for real stats. Can't have too much DEX or LIFE. INT is worthless after character creation.

*Of course a pure Ranger would be stupid anyway. Way to waste 2 INT points!
 

octavius

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Found my first magic items - a Ring Mail +1. Woohoo!

And then I encountered some Brigands north of town. Hardest fight so far, with two guys down, but I'm glad I have three Priests. But pumping all their points into XP means low Life (which again is why they are the first to go down) and Dex, so they don't get to act often in combat. But they all have 60 Karma.
Should I save up their XP to get more Dex, or is it better to pump up Treat Poison and Treat Disease first? I've been doing the latter since Poison is nearly always a damned nuisance in CRPGs.
 

Zombra

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Wait, you started the game giving your guys bonus XP? Isn't that insane compared to the benefits of real stats?

I don't remember poison or disease being a big deal. I think you can let them slide in the early game. But again ... we're talking 30 years ago so ...
 

octavius

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Wait, you started the game giving your guys bonus XP? Isn't that insane compared to the benefits of real stats?

Oh bugger, does one stat point really cost 100 XP?
I thought I was being clever giving my Priests max XP since both their starting Turn Undead and Luck skills are half their starting XP. So that's 40 free skill levels, and 40 Karma.
 

DaveO

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Found my first magic items - a Ring Mail +1. Woohoo!

And then I encountered some Brigands north of town. Hardest fight so far, with two guys down, but I'm glad I have three Priests. But pumping all their points into XP means low Life (which again is why they are the first to go down) and Dex, so they don't get to act often in combat. But they all have 60 Karma.
Should I save up their XP to get more Dex, or is it better to pump up Treat Poison and Treat Disease first? I've been doing the latter since Poison is nearly always a damned nuisance in CRPGs.

Treat Poison is good for assassins, spiders, and scorpions. You might seen assassins in the ruins, but you'd probably be around day 5 or so in game time. Treat Disease is not needed in Wizard's Crown. You could have one of the priests develop Dexterity and the other one work on Treat Poison.

Any attribute increase is 100 experience points.
 

Zombra

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Just in case you're thinking of starting over, or if it's helpful in some way, but mostly because I'm having fun remembering ...

I think the party I finished the game with was

* Fighter: Axe. I figure with not a lot of skills to boost, might as well make the pure fighters build the expensive weapons. This character was a fucking beast.
* Fighter: Flail. See above. Another beast, but I think I made him slower. Also flails are weird.
* Fighter/Thief: With more shit to spend points on, went with the cheaper Sword. Also shield though so that may not have been smart. Utility skills such as Picklock and Disarm Trap. Maybe he was the Haggler too. Kind of a "B" character, but carried his weight despite having too much shit to keep track of.
* Ranger/Thief: Super Duper Point Man. Stealth & Scan. 8 STR and 20 DEX. Mr. Fucking Short Bow Extravaganza. The difference between a Short Bow and a Long Bow doesn't matter much at the end game, so might as well have him shooting constantly.
* Ranger/Priest: Middle of the road milquetoasty guy, nice support. Backup h3alz and Heavy Spear to fight in the 2nd rank, hid behind real fighters. Probably Poison & Disease (I didn't know at the time disease doesn't exist in WC).
* Priest: Pure Priest, kind of a bad idea. Stood around a lot in combat. But when wounds happened, by god he was there for ya. Maxed his Luck because I thought it would be funny (it was).
* Sorcerer/Priest: Even worse idea. 18 INT and way too many skills meant his physical stats were shit and XP management was a nightmare. Couldn't cast that often with mediocre DEX, couldn't get his Karma as high as the others, just a mess. To make matters worse he was my utility guy for stuff like Read Ancient. Still, Sorcs and Priests are both nice to have so he helped as a backup.
* Sorcerer: Pure Sorc. The dream of a lifetime. This guy fucking NAILED it. A spell for every occasion, and he cast a fucking lot with a nice DEX. Also he did Evaluate Magic, the most important skill ever. Without distractions from other classes he maxed it pretty fast.
 
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octavius

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I had the idea of my main Fighter choosing Axe skill. I even named him Kull ("By This Axe I Rule"), but his starting Sword skill was so much better than his Axe skill. But now that he's reached 100+ in Awareness I think I'll give him the Axe skill to build up.

I was thinking of creating a Ranger/Thief point man, but it didn't looked like the skills stacked?

I replaced two of my Priests and gave them extra Dex and Life. Once they reach 60 Karma I'll also replace the third one.
 

DaveO

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Priests can restore life by the prayer just before Raise Dead(Restore Life Forces IIRC).
 

Zombra

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I had the idea of my main Fighter choosing Axe skill. I even named him Kull ("By This Axe I Rule"), but his starting Sword skill was so much better than his Axe skill. But now that he's reached 100+ in Awareness I think I'll give him the Axe skill to build up.
Do it. Nothing wrong with swords really, but you'll love your axe so much when you're smashing the fuck out of enemy shields.

I was thinking of creating a Ranger/Thief point man, but it didn't looked like the skills stacked?
They don't, but stop worrying about starting skill levels. 400 fights later, you won't remember your starting values. Just worry about which skills go to which characters so you know how to budget your XP. At 6 INT, Thief/Ranger is your cheapest multiclass, you can get him working on all the utility skills and throw in Bow or Spear to be useful in combat too without having to invest in full Fighter. Of course, if you like your Thief/Fighter point man, he can do the job almost as well, plus he can defend himself better. And you already have your Ranger/Priest for Track. (Hey DaveO, does Track do anything? I don't remember it.)

I replaced two of my Priests and gave them extra Dex and Life. Once they reach 60 Karma I'll also replace the third one.
Sounds like a plan.
 

DaveO

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I had the idea of my main Fighter choosing Axe skill. I even named him Kull ("By This Axe I Rule"), but his starting Sword skill was so much better than his Axe skill. But now that he's reached 100+ in Awareness I think I'll give him the Axe skill to build up.
Do it. Nothing wrong with swords really, but you'll love your axe so much when you're smashing the fuck out of enemy shields.

I was thinking of creating a Ranger/Thief point man, but it didn't looked like the skills stacked?
They don't, but stop worrying about starting skill levels. 400 fights later, you won't remember your starting values. At 6 INT, Thief/Ranger is your cheapest multiclass, you can get him working on all the utility skills and throw in Bow or Spear to be useful in combat too without having to invest in full Fighter. Of course, if you like your Thief/Fighter point man, he can do the job almost as well, plus he can defend himself better. And you already have your Ranger/Priest for Track. (Hey DaveO, does Track do anything? I don't remember it.)

I replaced two of my Priests and gave them extra Dex and Life. Once they reach 60 Karma I'll also replace the third one.
Sounds like a plan.

Track works in the sequel Eternal Dagger. No need to put skill points into it.
 

Zombra

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Track works in the sequel Eternal Dagger. No need to put skill points into it.
Another one I pumped the hell out of worthlessly in my playthrough :)
 

Deuce Traveler

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The starting party does indeed seem to start off with more skill points than a party you generate on your own. I still dumped them all and created a new party based on @Zombras advice. Right now I have the following characters:

a. Fighter w/ Axe
b. Fighter w/ Flail (thinking of dropping for fighter with sword)
c. Ranger/Thief with a shortbow and good Stealth and Scan.
d. Fighter/Thief with a spear and points in Open Locks and Search. I am wondering if it would be better to stick a bow on the thief and have him focus on thief skills and bow mastery and keep the ranger as a straight ranger character
e. Fighter/Priest with a shortbow and First Aid and Karma
f. Ranger/Priest with a shortbow and Karma and Turn Undead
g. Sorcerer
h. Sorcerer (considering adding some points in strength so they could at least wield bows)

I don't know. I'm probably going to make some more tweaks before settling in on the starting party. I think I need more front row fighters, though I do like the diversity of weapons. The large amount of skills make it difficult for non-fighters to specialize.
 

Zombra

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I think I need more front row fighters
Yeah, at a glance I'd say too many bows, not enough melee. You have to be able to block the enemy from reaching your squishies. Mace is a nice cheap weapon for one of your multiclass Fighters.

Also Sorcerers don't get the Bow skill, so don't bother pumping Strength. Two pure Sorcs isn't a bad idea though, they're awesome :)

Only two Priests seems a little risky too ... make sure they cover each other!

God I would kill for TSI to make Wizard's Crown II. Love this game so much.
 

octavius

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Don't two pure sorcs have a tendency of ending up doing nothing in battle? I gave mine Fighter class and some extra STR so that they can double as front liners while working up their skills.
 

DaveO

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One of the Fighter/Priest combos in Wizard's Crown needs to develop the mace skill to use the +5 Morningstar in Eternal Dagger. It has a Turn Undead bonus of +50. Cheap experience weapon skills are best picked by Thief characters to minimize the impact on Haggle or Search. Ranger is probably best combined with a Fighter along with that character developing the highest experience skills(Axe or Flail). Axe can break enemy shields, and Flail totally ignores a shield. Spear has a two square attack range, and it is a good choice to put a spear user next to a character on the flank to help protect the flank. Enemies LOVE to flank you.

Pure Sorcerers and pure priests just sit around in combat. Since combat is almost what the game is about, you really need some offensive ability for every character in my opinion.
Don't bother with any two handed weapons with the exception of Bow/Crossbow. Bow on a high dexterity character as previous mentioned can really help out against enemies.

I suppose a "minimum" party would be two fighters(although a second class like Ranger or Thief is a good idea), two Fighter/Priests(for the left and right flank on the front combat line), two multiclass Sorcerers(Ranger/Sorcerer would be the cheapest), and two characters that are a Thief. Having two characters with Search maximized improves your chance of finding those magical items.

Rangers do get Stealth and First Aid. Stealth allows sneaking, but you get one attack from a sneak attack before you're revealed and have to try to Sneak again. Non fighters suffer a defensive penalty if attacked by multiple opponents at once. At least that's what my Eternal Dagger manual states.
 
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DaveO

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Ranger/Priest could potentially be a good ambush character if you choose Spear. You'd need to at least get 100 Spear, 100 Stealth, and 100 Luck to offset the defense penalty I mentioned.
 

Daemongar

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I played Wizard's Crown and Eternal Dagger for the C64 and enjoyed them more than most, aparently. This was one of those reasons why I was so happy with the announcement of some (uh... eventual) revival at TSI-Games. SSI was one of the best tactical game manufacturers, and I believe that The Eternal Dagger was the highlight of a forgotten genre. Some of this was absorbed into the Gold Box games, but overall "realistic" combat RPGs were left to the wayside. There was a real difference in the weapons, as opposed to most games of the time using D&D type rules where everything was pure damage of 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d6+1, 1d8, 2d4, etc. Shields, weapons, armor, direction facing all made a difference.

A big turn off was the length of the battles, but I know that after the first couple of fights, I really started to enjoy the combat. Every six months, someone here will ask about a good tactical RPG and when I say Eternal Dagger, I really mean it. Not for everyone, though.
 

Zombra

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Don't two pure sorcs have a tendency of ending up doing nothing in battle? I gave mine Fighter class and some extra STR so that they can double as front liners while working up their skills.
That's not a terrible approach I guess, but I disagree with DaveO. Pure Priests are a bad idea, but once I hit the mid game, my Sorc became the hero of my party. These are the guys who shape the battle. Fighters are awesome and they will kill a huge amount of shit to be sure, but I always found myself waiting for my Sorc's turn because there is always some spell to cast that will help. I never rolled with two pure Sorcs but it sounds awesome to me. And I still think that multiclassing is a mistake unless it's necessary. A Fighter with 16 INT? Maybe, but he's going to be way too slow to really shine. YMMV. :)
 

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