KickStarter Knights of the Chalice 2 Thread - Augury of Chaos

[Desiderius]

Yes, dorfs and half-sal could use the help, though half-sal is better than it looks already I think (have one in current party).

Monk needs a relevant skill.

Only change to xBow is maybe give Sorc xBow prof as well. Warlock already has double action econ. Could justify letting Rogue Sneak with one.

 

[Serus]

I'm not sure about the point of your argument.
Some weapons sucks, light maces for example, just don't use them.

I was hoping someone would have have figured something out that I hadn't considered. Instead, I got some guy exploding because someone posted a frog.

On that topic, Pierre is receptive to good arguments about weak classes and races.

For example, he might add something for the monks, no spoiler but it's really cool.
And some new sub-races for Dwarves and Salamanders. No spoiler either, small changes but really neat.

Right-O. I'll bring it up with him directly.

If you want Pierre to give you some better xBows for Rogues or make them use STR or whatever that’s different

STR to damage isn't necessary and would be boring. IMO, what should be done is
-Make light crossbows simple weapons
-Make heavy crossbows 18-20 3X and make Arbalests 4X
-Make some crossbow specific enchants and special bolts

I'll try to think up some specifics after I finish my current gimmicky archmage playthough with my underperforming crossbow ranger. On the flip-side, I'm also running a centaur psy healer with a reach weapon that I expected to be shit but has actually been putting in a surprising amount of work.

I like the idea of special bolts, similar to special arrows but possibly even slightly stronger. I doubt it would be enough to make x-bows worthwhile but it would be a move in the right direction. Makes sense to.
Another thing i would add is one or two really badass artifact crossbows early/mid game. Would give an incentive to at least try a crossbowman.

 

[anvi]

Do you usually trade your HP with the hags for their various gifts?

 

[Darth Canoli]

Do you usually trade your HP with the hags for their various gifts?

Not my hp per se, there is extra companions you're not using and with the extra xp, Erzimon could be level 8 without even using him or just for a fight or two.

Or use Pizarra if you're not using her, or Asharazelle if you have extra magic diamonds.

 

[Oligryan]

I like the idea of special bolts, similar to special arrows but possibly even slightly stronger. I doubt it would be enough to make x-bows worthwhile but it would be a move in the right direction. Makes sense to.
Another thing i would add is one or two really badass artifact crossbows early/mid game. Would give an incentive to at least try a crossbowman.

Yeah, the criti-fishing changes are really just a nod toward rangers. The special bolts would be what I'd bank on, and it'd be important to make them relatively cheap to make. Though I'm really just aping Styg's Underrail ideas now that I think about it.
A good artifact or two to build would definitely be a big boon to crossbowmen, changes or not.

Do you usually trade your HP with the hags for their various gifts?

You can just have a companion you aren't using eat the cost. There's not any reason not to take them as far as I've been able to tell.

 

[Serus]

Do you usually trade your HP with the hags for their various gifts?

Yes. But not that of your party. Unless you want Erzimon in party (i didn't) he is a great blood donor. Alternatively if you take Pizarra, some who loses the place in the team can also donate.

BTW, same applies to exp cost for crafting. Take everyone you can even if you don't plan to use them. They all(?) start with some unspent exp and can be crafters.


Edit: Darth beat me to it.

 

[Desiderius]

I'm not sure about the point of your argument.
Some weapons sucks, light maces for example, just don't use them.

I was hoping someone would have have figured something out that I hadn't considered. Instead, I got some guy exploding because someone posted a frog.

On that topic, Pierre is receptive to good arguments about weak classes and races.

For example, he might add something for the monks, no spoiler but it's really cool.
And some new sub-races for Dwarves and Salamanders. No spoiler either, small changes but really neat.

Right-O. I'll bring it up with him directly.

If you want Pierre to give you some better xBows for Rogues or make them use STR or whatever that’s different

STR to damage isn't necessary and would be boring. IMO, what should be done is
-Make light crossbows simple weapons
-Make heavy crossbows 18-20 3X and make Arbalests 4X
-Make some crossbow specific enchants and special bolts

I'll try to think up some specifics after I finish my current gimmicky archmage playthough with my underperforming crossbow ranger. On the flip-side, I'm also running a centaur psy healer with a reach weapon that I expected to be shit but has actually been putting in a surprising amount of work.

If you think that’s an explosion… people playing dominance games badly is something that needs down-smacking, both for the good of the forum and their own ability to interact productively with other human beings.

Sounds like some decent ideas for expanding xBow viability that work well with the downsides.

Why would you make an xBow Ranger in the first place tho? Pierre warned you about both. Seems like biting off more than you can chew.

 

[Serus]

I hate it when the game crashes in a two part/long battle. It almost never happen anymore with 1.35, the only other crash i had was when i tried to rename a crafted +1 crystal skewer barbed waraxe. I hoped they are completely gone.

How one makes a Bard, like a melee with support/buffing or better try to make of him a secondary caster?


Desiderius - there are some very nice crossbow rangers portraits for pathfinders, so that would the reason if you can turn one into a token. :D

 

[Darth Canoli]

How one makes a Bard, like a melee with support/buffing or better try to make of him a secondary caster?

Full caster, you could go for High Elf Female 20 INT + CHA and not much else, which means 10 bard songs at level 1 and 20 at level 20. Aiming for 24 CHA and bonus CHA gear. I'm not sure attribute from equipment will give you extra songs though, It doesn't give extra spells for other classes.

Otherwise, Human or Centaur F.

Due to the CHA requirements, it's hard to make the bard an efficient fighter, at the very least, if you want a melee caster bard, I'd go for a reach weapon, or Human archer/caster for the extra feats.

 

[Jermu]

I tested reach weapon and bow bard (only up to crypt or so) but maxing cha and splitting other attributes is quite tough since having decent enough int/con/str and some dex is impossible. Bow needs some feats to work which are probably better spend in other feats.

Also regarding human bard argossian is little bit problematic since its -2 int and -2dex which are both good for pure caster bard. So elf is probably way to go.

My new bard in current playthrough is elf with maxed cha, high int/dex and some con.

 

[Serus]

Strangely quiet here already.

I'll give a subject.

Spells! What are the best non-obvious spells in the game. Leave Haste or and good permanent buffs like Mirror Image alone, everyone knows them. Not using those would be considered stupid or a challenge.

1. Grease - this one actually is in the category of too good to pass, it's a 1st level spell/power that can be used to good effect even late in game.
2. Quicksand - same as above but 2nd level and Druid's spell list only. One of the best "cheap" disabling spells.
3. Glitterdust - blind is a strong debuff, only level 2. I like it. Blinded not only gives 50% concealment but also halves the speed and prevents 5-foot-step. And no spell resistance.
4. Confusion, great AOE disabling spell, comes relatively early at level 4. There is a 30% chance for the target to attack nearest creature which can have great effect but is very random.
5. Energy Missile - 2nd level power, needs a feat and is best situational when there are several wounded enemies to kill fast, which is often. A multi auto-hit attack with good damage is great.

The biggest letdown:
1. Insect Plague - sounds bad ass but for a level 5 spell is meh.

Any favourites of yours? Remember, level is important. A spell that would be great in Chapter 2 and is level 6 is not very good.

 

[Dorateen]

How about Burning Hands, or Flaming Sphere, not for damage but to burn away enemy webs or grease when the party is stuck. Won't be effective on the resilient versions of those spells, but at lower levels, it's a way to counter those pesky terrain effects.

 

[Jermu]

What are the best non-obvious spells in the game.
1. Grease

:D

Anyway Im a big fan of Holy Smite with reach domain which gives mandatory feats also
Different sleep spells are surprisingly great in some encounters
Cone of cold aoe is satisfying
Stomp, silence & energy cone/ball are obvious picks
Fire elemental is great early

 

[Serus]

What are the best non-obvious spells in the game.
1. Grease

:D

Anyway Im a big fan of Holy Smite with reach domain which gives mandatory feats also
Different sleep spells are surprisingly great in some encounters
Cone of cold aoe is satisfying
Stomp, silence & energy cone/ball are obvious picks
Fire elemental is great early

Well, Grease is sort of obvious. What maybe not always obvious is how versatile it can be. It can directly get the enemy prone. If you are lucky to keep it that way for a turn or two. Even if the enemy wont trip he gets "balancing" status, makes him easy to trip/bull rush or even Gust of Wind-him. It can be used to move an enemy to a lower level square from range - which might even be a damage square in a some battles. I don't think there is another spell that has so many interactions. In fact MORE spells should allow so many varied applications, this is what makes magic fun. Sure it's nice to destroy a group of enemies with an AOE damaging spell but it is even more fun to make a powerful demon trip because you made the floor slippery.

Sleep spells, the problem is that - in this game - enemy progression is so fast that the low level wizard sleep spells get unusable very fast.

Stomp is good but it requires a feat to really shine.

Fire elemental is good early that's true. The problem is the action economy which makes other type of summons better later - even when you get higher levels summon elemental spells. For that reason Cleric makes a bad (regular) summoner unless, maybe, you take a related domain.

How about Burning Hands, or Flaming Sphere, not for damage but to burn away enemy webs or grease when the party is stuck. Won't be effective on the resilient versions of those spells, but at lower levels, it's a way to counter those pesky terrain effects.

Yes, sometimes it's the only way, those webs in early game can be nasty. Burning hands can even, on occasions be used as a damaging spell. Good pick. And another example of an additional interaction. Damaging spells used as something else. Give me more.

 

[Desiderius]

(Improved) Mind Hammer and (Improved) Inflict Pain

All three of the Psi spells that let you add additional targets scale really well on a crowded battlefield. Combined with the Range Feats the added Range on Improved versions also give you a lot of command. Pain always does something even on save and helps CMs get there or makes Web/Entangle more effective at stopping both movement and spells.

Delta Waves is a good way to apply Sleep without worrying about HD limits. Improved Energy Cone has a massive area of effect.

Fog Cloud is good in the tutorial against the Golems since Magic Missile doesn't care about Concealment. Could also combo with Psi Improved Energy Missile.

Produce Flame with Fire Mastery (especially on Fire Druid) helps Druid staying power, as of course does Call Lightning. I use Call even on Storm Warrior. Meteors is handy to give Erzimon something decent to do when not casting.

Longstrider is something to keep in mind when playing a slow race.

Magic Arrow, Lesser (Free Action) is good on Ranger with Rapid Shot

Bard Dirge is nice to take a crack at on several bosses once you get the +4 CHR instrument and +2 DC Song. Attk debuff even helps CMs.

 

[Tweed]

Strangely quiet here already.

I'll give a subject.

Spells! What are the best non-obvious spells in the game. Leave Haste or and good permanent buffs like Mirror Image alone, everyone knows them. Not using those would be considered stupid or a challenge.

1. Grease - this one actually is in the category of too good to pass, it's a 1st level spell/power that can be used to good effect even late in game.
2. Quicksand - same as above but 2nd level and Druid's spell list only. One of the best "cheap" disabling spells.
3. Glitterdust - blind is a strong debuff, only level 2. I like it. Blinded not only gives 50% concealment but also halves the speed and prevents 5-foot-step. And no spell resistance.
4. Confusion, great AOE disabling spell, comes relatively early at level 4. There is a 30% chance for the target to attack nearest creature which can have great effect but is very random.
5. Energy Missile - 2nd level power, needs a feat and is best situational when there are several wounded enemies to kill fast, which is often. A multi auto-hit attack with good damage is great.

The biggest letdown:
1. Insect Plague - sounds bad ass but for a level 5 spell is meh.

Any favourites of yours? Remember, level is important. A spell that would be great in Chapter 2 and is level 6 is not very good.

Grease and Improved Grease are my two favorite spells, couldn't possibly be without them. Even if the target doesn't go prone at the start, any good attack or a second spell will topple them. You can even grease the lich pretty easily.
Burning Hands on a red wizard stays relevant for the entire game, especially when you empower it. Plus red wizards get empowered fireballs and the like for cheaper as well as Acid Blast which is killer.
I got a ton of mileage out of magic stone which is a level 1 spell, especially when empowered. It's good for finishing off weakened enemies and of course it wrecks undead. If you take the Magic Domain it gets even better, but I wouldn't sacrifice Reach or Flux for that.
I dunno how popular harm is among everyone, but harm on a flux cleric is deadly when you need extra damage.
And yeah improved mind hammer is a nice finisher if you've been pumping up your psions.

 

[Desiderius]

Forgot about Magic Stone. Wish it were second level since first level gets crowded with Bless (boosted by Mysticism) and your only Summon before lvl four.

With Reach Domain can disrupt casters from across the whole screen and damage scales with level.

 

[Jvegi]

Finished the tutorial. I was pretty easy overall, but I guess it makes sense given how it's supposed to teach you to utilize the mechanics and I know the mechanics. Onto the main adventure.

What worries me is the equipment issue. It's all the same with those 3rd edition games. You have a big table of effects items you find or craft can have and it all feels very gamey, especially when you're showered with +health/dexterity/fire resistance rings etc, like in the tutorial module. In BG items felt more unique and belonging to the world. I say get rid of crafting, or make it optional in appropriate modules.

BTW, can I use healing spells/items outside of combat without going into the spell book or the inventory? A hot-key or smth?

 

[Darth Canoli]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned stinking cloud yet.

Most of my low level favorites were mentioned already (both stomps, sleep/fascination spells, holy smite, quicksand, burning hands, silence, cone of cold).

So besides these:

• Stinking Cloud (works against Pizarra, the crones, the goblin king, the hydra, many other fights, mostly against mages)
• True Seeing (known as the high level mages bane)
• Greater invisibility (no AOO, concealment, THC bonus)
  
• Vortex of Doom/ Whirlwind / Sirocco / Earthquake
  
• Hideous laughter/ Irresistible dance

Mostly, spells disabling many opponents at once and with side effects like making you fail your check when balancing on a grease tile and spells with ridiculous damage.
Or spells giving you an obvious advantage like greater invi. or accelerated spells.

For a low level campaign, coulour spray on a specialized mage do wonders as well.

BTW, can I use healing spells/items outside of combat without going into the spell book or the inventory? A hot-key or smth?

Not yet but it's planned.

 

[Serus]

Forgot about Magic Stone. Wish it were second level since first level gets crowded with Bless (boosted by Mysticism) and your only Summon before lvl four.

With Reach Domain can disrupt casters from across the whole screen and damage scales with level.

I never use cleric summons past early game but with Magic domain magic stone has some uses occasionally and more slots help too use it as well. Next time (if there will be one) without Magic it will be certainly less useful. I plan taking Flux, it sounds great.
Why is Reach Domain so good? I don't see it.

Agree on the Psion sleep spells, they are better than wizard ones, the limit on had is very bad is such campaign. In a low-level or slow campaign it would be different.

I didn't take Psion Cone with increased aoe feat. How many battles there are in the game where the additional aoe is useful? Before chapter 4, maybe 3 fights. And that's being extremely generous, unmodified cone still covers everything of what you really need. I took cone shaping instead and it served me well.

 

[Serus]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned stinking cloud yet.

Most of my low level favorites were mentioned already (both stomps, sleep/fascination spells, holy smite, quicksand, burning hands, silence, cone of cold).

So besides these:

• Stinking Cloud (works against Pizarra, the crones, the lizard king, the hydra, many other fights, mostly against mages)
• True Seeing (known as the high level mages bane)
• Greater invisibility (no AOO, concealment, THC bonus)
  
• Vortex of Doom/ Whirlwind / Sirocco / Earthquake
  
• Hideous laughter/ Irresistible dance

Mostly, spells disabling many opponents at once and with side effects like making you fail your check when balancing on a grease tile and spells with ridiculous damage.
Or spells giving you an obvious advantage like greater invi. or accelerated spells.

For a low level campaign, coulour spray on a specialized mage do wonders as well.

Stinking Cloud is great, no doubt about it. It was so in other games as well. And is low(-ish) level. The only drawback I see is that it is in the same level as Haste, with only one wizard in party it becomes a problem.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Also, Xadriphar wiped the floor with my party.
Went there with 4 characters already cursed, didn't think about curing them but it didn't proc that much.

Empower/maximise Chain lightning did ridiculous damage, same for empowered or maximized Harm/mass harm, 240 damage on my fighter, others took only half, not sure what happened.

And the skellies finished the job, couldn't resurrect fast enough.

Came back and locked him in a corner, he didn't summon the skellies and died fast, sad and alone...

Stinking Cloud is great, no doubt about it. It was so in other games as well. And is low(-ish) level. The only drawback I see is that it is in the same level as Haste, with only one wizard in party it becomes a problem.

If you have enough skewer weapons, you don't really need haste.
Later, you get 2 pair of boots of haste.

When you do need haste, it's alright to cast it on the second turn, even if it targets less fighters.

 

[Jermu]

You can always pick Celerity domain. Also haste is not too important if you are caster heavy party and if u have 1 or 2 melee you can just use those boosts that give speed
Reach gives 3 mandatory feats (spell ranges) and is beneficial for holy smite and magic stone which both have been mentioned in this page multiple times. Sound burst is also useful spell
Regarding psio cone dont see reason not to pick all beneficial feats for that ability or ball (poison is kinda meh since lightning is so great in most situations). For example in castle area there are enemies in wide space so huge aoe spells are great. But if any spell does not affect allies there is no reason not to have as much as possible aoe in 99% of situations

 

[Serus]

You can always pick Celerity domain.
Reach gives 3 mandatory feats (spell ranges) and is beneficial for holy smite and magic stone which both have been mentioned in this page

Yes, you CAN but a Cleric has only two domain slots and in my opinion there are many better ones than Celerity. Opportunity cost and all that.
I don't believe 3 range feats are mandatory at ALL. Even less so on a cleric. One - sure, two - if you can afford and want it later, three - never took it on anyone, never saw a situation when it would make a real difference.
Compare with Mysticism: 2x focus, 1x penetration and +2 concentration on top. Those are truly must have. Sure reach gives some good increases in range/radius category for useful cleric offensive spells, especially Sound Burst but compared to the ability to cast in practice 2 spells in first round it's weak.
Mysticism >>>> Reach in my opinion. And if take Mysticism then i wan't something better that Reach as second domain.

Change of mind about Reach domain: 5%.

 

[Desiderius]

Change of mind about Reach domain: 5%.

Well, that's high for you so I'll try.

(1) Mysticism is a must for an offensive caster (as opposed to fighting with one of the Martial Domains, say, then just healing and buffing otherwise), so it's not about Mysticism vs Reach. Hard to drop Mysticism in any scenario.

(2) Increasing your reach in general is really good for offensive casters since the hardest fights get spread out all over the place, and especially for Bishop/Cleric because you want your Move actions free for the buffs.

(3) If you want to cast offensively as a Bishop/Cleric there aren't a ton of options in the first few levels (especially 2nd level), and that's where the bulk of your casts are for most of the game. Reach turns on Sound Burst as a viable spell (Close AoEs are a major pain) and turns Smite from good to great.

(4) Damage + disable spells double up your action economy, and both Burst and especially Smite get around Resists/Immunities. Smite being enemies only checks about all the boxes.

(5) Sounds like from the rest of your comments that you haven't done the math yet on how radius effects area. Even Energy Cone for instance 65/50 = 13/10 = 30% more radius, but 13^2/10^2 = 169/100 = 70% more area. The effect is substantially larger from Reach Domain.