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Vapourware A new Deus Ex was in development at Eidos Montreal

RobotSquirrel

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Like Deus Ex, it is postcyberpunk.
Deus Ex: The conspiracy can't be classified as postcyberpunk, it's clearly a dystopia and is overall very pessimistic about the future.
JC Denton however is a postcyberpunk protagonist at the start of the game that turns Cyberpunk in Hong Kong when it's clear he's on the wrong side.
But its very clear that you wouldn't want to live in Deus Ex's world. Oh Yeah... That's our world now isn't it. Damn it.
 
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Codex Year of the Donut
By the same metric, wouldn't that also exclude Ghost in the Shell from cyberpunk? There's a hefty supply of low life in all that high tech, but it most definitely doesn't constitute the focus of the central cast and plot.
Like Deus Ex, it is postcyberpunk.

http://locusmag.com/2006/Features/Person_GhostInTheShell.html

At its best, GitS:SAC is the most interesting, sustained postcyberpunk media work in existence, intellectually (if not visually) superior to the original movie, and almost worthy of direct comparison to the post/cyberpunk works which inspired it. (However, while the works of one literary figure are referenced throughout the first season, no one has ever accused J. D. Salinger of being a Cyberpunk...)

Set in the densely-realized postcyberpunk setting of "New Port City" (think Japan’s Gotham City), GitS:SAC follows the investigations of Section 9, an ultra-elite police cybercrime and "special problems" team, a job especially important in a society where much of the populace has various cybernetic implants, including partial or completely cybernetic brains.
I swear it's just a matter of time until every product with water in it is deemed waterpunk.

Can't imagine what kind of brainrot you'd need to think deus ex was cyberpunk. Maybe some kind of ESL.
 

Larianshill

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Complaining about what is "punk" and what is not is meaningless, because steampunk exists, and that one is not even a genre, it's an aesthetic.
 

Roguey

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Deus Ex: The conspiracy can't be classified as postcyberpunk, it's clearly a dystopia and is overall very pessimistic about the future.
JC Denton however is a postcyberpunk protagonist at the start of the game that turns Cyberpunk in Hong Kong when it's clear he's on the wrong side.
But its very clear that you wouldn't want to live in Deus Ex's world. Oh Yeah... That's our world now isn't it. Damn it.
? All three of the endings are optimistic about the future.

Cyberpunk characters frequently seek to topple or exploit corrupt social orders. Postcyberpunk characters tend to seek ways to live in, or even strengthen, an existing social order, or help construct a better one.

"Toppling the corrupt social order" only applies to the ridiculous "just plunge the world back into a dark age bro" ending.

Complaining about what is "punk" and what is not is meaningless, because steampunk exists, and that one is not even a genre, it's an aesthetic.
Steampunk is derived from William Gibson and Bruce Sterling's The Difference Engine which was "Dude, what if we made a cyberpunk novel but had it take place in an alternate past with different technology?" Superficial cringepeddlers focused entirely on the aesthetic.
 

Gargaune

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I think the colossal failure of cyberpunk in that regard has made many others devs wary to try and merge an open-world with im sim mechanics.

Arguably, it could be done, but the effort and resources required would be so prohibitive to make it unpalatable to anyone that isn't working on such a game as a passion project. Additionally, DX gains very little from tying the protagonist to a single city, which would be a requirement of an open-world philosophy.
Yes, that's why I hope EM will sidestep that gaping manhole, since experienced developers and enthusiasts alike should realise the titanic absurdity of attempting a fully-open world immersive sim, but I'm not sure if that's well understood on the publisher side. Embracer Group might look at Cyberpunk 2077 and think "do that but less buggy", the same incorrect lesson I fear CDPR drew from that dumpster fire release, and then EM gets stuck with a bag of burning faeces. I believe Embracer has been said around here to be a hands-off publisher, so fingers crossed, but you never know.

By the same metric, wouldn't that also exclude Ghost in the Shell from cyberpunk? There's a hefty supply of low life in all that high tech, but it most definitely doesn't constitute the focus of the central cast and plot.
Like Deus Ex, it is postcyberpunk.

http://locusmag.com/2006/Features/Person_GhostInTheShell.html
Okay, so then postcyberpunk is cyberpunk with all the cyber-depravity and transhumanism minus a "rah rah rebel rebel" punk plot requirement? And then tech noir is something that sorta looks like cyberpunk but doesn't have to be particularly cyber or punk, like The Terminator?

And just to be a dick about it, if postcyberpunk is essentially a less restrictive variation of cyberpunk... wouldn't that make cyberpunk a sub-type of postcyberpunk? :M
 

Roguey

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Okay, so then postcyberpunk is cyberpunk with all the cyber-depravity and transhumanism minus a "rah rah rebel rebel" punk plot requirement? And then tech noir is something that sorta looks like cyberpunk but doesn't have to be particularly cyber or punk, like The Terminator?

Tech Noir is Film Noir with Sci Fi, yeah.

And just to be a dick about it, if postcyberpunk is essentially a less restrictive variation of cyberpunk... wouldn't that make cyberpunk a sub-type of postcyberpunk?

Cyberpunk came first, much like how punk rock led to postpunk bands. Wouldn't be a postcyberpunk without cyberpunk.
 

NecroLord

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Take a look at Hell's Kitchen or Hong Kong Wan Chai Market and compare to the soulless trash "open world" sim in Cybercock 2077.
In Hell's Kitchen you have fleshed out characters - Sandra,the daughter of Mr.Renton who is struggling to make a living and is a prostitute of Jo Jo,a local NSF commander. Smuggler,a paranoid trader of weapons and information and his friend Ford Schick,whom you can rescue from the sewers.
 

Ryzer

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Deus Ex is probably the only old game I loved which had GOOD modern sequels. I have hopes for this one too. Adam turned out to be a likeable protagonist as well (which is rare nowadays as characters are either too edgy or without a character).
Except that nu-Deus Ex games weren't good, the gameplay was worse than a typical COD game.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

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Complaining about what is "punk" and what is not is meaningless, because steampunk exists, and that one is not even a genre, it's an aesthetic.
You're almost there.

They're ALL just an aesthetic. Punk in cyberpunk doesn't refer to spiky-haired heroin addicts or shitty music. It's just a fancy way to denote a setting having a cyber aesthetic. Same goes for steampunk, dieselpunk, solarpunk, and whatever other -punks they invent next.
Cyberpunk is an exploration of certain types of technologies and their potential impact on human society, specifically cybernetic augmentation of the human body or from external digital devices (computers, the internet, cyberspace). Early authors such as William Gibson had punk influences, but these influences weren't lasting, whereas Blade Runner's SF film noir aesthetics established a firmer preference for the presentation of cyberpunk. However, the exact aesthetics don't define the genre.

When SF authors began writing fiction about implausible developments of 19th-century technology, they coined the term steampunk from cyberpunk, and similar fiction in other time periods gave rise to the terms dieselpunk, clockpunk, and so forth. The 'punk' suffix became used as a common indicator that these subgenres involve baroque technologies that aren't actually possible, and therefore are only tenuously connected to the science fiction genre; even though they lack magic as such, they venture into the fantastical. However, there are a few usages such as biopunk or spacepunk which are similar to cyberpunk in being set in the future and attempting to investigate plausible technological developments, distinguished from cyberpunk by the set of technologies being something other than cybernetic.

"Toppling the corrupt social order" only applies to the ridiculous "just plunge the world back into a dark age bro" ending.
All three endings of Deus Ex overturn the prevailing social order, in which MJ12 manipulates world governments and seeks to establish permanent totalitarian control. The Illuminati ending is the least drastic, in that it returns to the preceding social order with the Illuminati being the organization that engages in (benevolent?) manipulations behind the scenes. The AI ending has the merged AI/human hybrid take control of the world, ostensibly for promoting the common good more effectively than any human polity. The Dark Ages ending precipitates societal collapse in order to restore local (not even national) control.
 

Decado

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I have said it in the past but I'll reiterate it here. It is very unlikely that a Canadian studio and/or Canadian developers and writers can produce a worthy sequel to the first Deus Ex (2000), for a variety of reasons. In fact, we might not see a decent sequel ever, which is only slightly less unlikely. I'll attack each of these separately, starting with the latter.

First and foremost, coming to grips with the core themes of the first Deus Ex means engaging with what is most likely the greatest vehicle of American mythology: the conspiracy theory. If we didn't invent conspiracy theories here, we refined them into their current crystalline state of perfection. From the Kennedy assassination to fake moon landings to MK Ultra, the FBI framing Martin Luther King, the USS Liberty, FDR allowing Pearl Harbor to be bombed, Truman taking out Patton, Operation PAPERCLIP, Ruby Ridge, Jeffrey Epstein, UFOs (so many fucking UFOs!), Area 51, the Illuminati, MJ12, 9/11, fluoride in the water, crisis actors, the 2017 Las Vegas shooting, magnetic strips in 20 dollar bills, the United States is a corporation, the CIA inventing AIDS, QAnon, Pizzagate, Lizard People, Operation High Jump, aliens in Antarctica, Project Sunshine, and Bigfoot. We have the best conspiracy theories, and the most. And importantly, all of the really serious conspiracy theories, the ones that inspire an almost religious fervor in their adherents and believers, are about government control. This is hugely relevant.

So what, exactly, is Deus Ex about? A lot of people think it is about human bioengineering, the ethics of science, the ethics of fighting terrorism. And maybe those are a part of the story, but they're expressions of a greater, overarching theme. The primal, moral question the story attempts to grapple with is about control: control over man's evolution and, therefore, control over man himself. More specifically, it is about the locus of that control, whether or not authoritarianism is justified. It's a critique of self-government, demonstrating that once technology reaches a certain point, democracy becomes a liability for the survival of the species; at some point, you either ditch self-government or you ditch technology. The only way to have both is through a continuous and unrelenting stream of lies, propaganda, and repression. Your average human being is too frail, too greedy, to govern himself in the face of such temptations as are offered by high technology.

In order to tell this story, Ion Storm had to make up a fantastical mythological canon that borrowed from the most deep-rooted and, some would say, far-fetched American conspiracy theories. But, uhh . . . well, what does that paragraph above sound like to you? Because to me it sounds an awful lot like 2022.

So the first problem emerges, which is that a modern conspiracy theory video game will have to be very clever in order to bypass the simply unbelievable times we are living in, or one might say "enduring," right now. That's a tall order for a gifted writer of any persuasion, but it is almost impossible for the leftist, which brings us to a second issue: it is highly likely that any conspiracy theory-focused game made in 2022 will be made by a left-of-center, if not hard left, writer or studio. Which means it is also higly likely that any story will veer, eventually, into undisguised moralizing.

In much the same way as the Eidos Montreal Deus Ex games, leftist pandering on issues such as economic inequality and climate change will find themselves at the front of the story. It is easy to imagine that other leftist theology -- for example, the entire panoply of trans nonsense -- will find a natural home in the metahumanity suggested by, say, nanotechnology. The first Deus Ex, which is to say the only decent Deus Ex, reveled in the opposite of this mentality: This is why at the end of JC's first mission, he gets a lecture from the commander about the shift from self-employment to wage-based employment. It's the shift from Jefferson's agrarian citizen-soldier to FDR's New Deal wage slave. JC's enemies in the NSF are fighting the consolidation of government power, the latest in a long history of patriotic American rebellion. On the contrary, what aspirations are leftists capable of arguing for at this point? Socialized health care? It's a fucking joke to even ask.

Beyond the inevitable preachiness, however, lies a deeper problem. Conspiracy theories are by their nature subversive and they traffic in distrust against the edifices of society, the institutions. This was easier to swallow when our institutions were nominally neutral or inoffensively conservative, but now, in 2022, with every salient institution infested with leftist ideology, there is precious little for a leftist to subvert -- the only possible conspiracy theory here is that leftist institutions are secretly not as leftist as they should be, are insufficiently left because of some hidden nefarious force! The leftist version of a happy ending would be JC Denton fusing with Helios and then ushering in a socialist utopia. Or JC Denton working with the Illuminati, and then ushering in a socialist utopia. Or JC Denton causing the collapse, and society now freed from it's capitalist overlords, will evolve into a socialist utopia. To the leftist, the only possible conspiracy theory is the one that retards further leftism and, once removed, will see the utopia arrive.

To put this all another way, those most likely to get the greenlight to make a new Deus Ex will be your garden variety shitlibs, and they simply do not have the turn the of mind necessary to do this topic justice, as their worldview prevents it. In much the same way that they confuse a man dressed as a plastic bimbo and engaged in over-the-top sexualized behavior as embodying the essence of a woman, they may mimic the trappings of a conspiracy theory without understanding its soul. At best, they can produce a delicate, fragile facsimile of a conspiracy theory that, combined with perfume, lots of booze, and your desire to see what you want, will trick you for a few hours. But in the cold light of morning, that Adam's apple will reveal itself and you'll know you've been fucking had.

How do we get out of this quandary? The most immediate and obvious solution is to ask a non-American studio to do it, but of course this runs us into the second problem, which the Canadian versions of Deus Ex have so amply demonstrated: they just can't do it. It's like ordering New York pizza in London, or pulled pork in Sweden. These things might taste okay, but the toppings will be a little off, the bun a little bit weird. You'll always know you're not eating the real thing.

Every criticism to be leveled at the American left's inability to write a good conspiracy theory is therefore amplified in Canada. American mythology is steeped in conspiracy and rebellion, and despite the pervasiveness of leftist ideology in all of our institutions, there is still a healthy red-blooded streak of individualistic violence that runs through the American religion. Except for the extreme left, for example, most Americans are fine with shooting a home intruder, whether they're armed or not, as even the most liberal states have some version of a "stand your ground" law. Up north, the Canadian man defending his home may very well be hauled off to a ridiculous trial while the state comforts the burglar as a poor, misunderstood soul who was failed by society. In the US, I can shoot a guy in my living room for no other reason than he broke in at 2am and was trying to steal my vintage Voltron figures. Depending on the state I live in, I might not even go to a police station to make a statement. I'd be eating bacon and eggs for breakfast while the blood was still drying on the carpet.

This way of life is alien to the Canadian. He cannot conceive of it, not really. Any story he tells of American conspiracy theories will be akin to a British historian explaining Hinduism; he might get all the facts right but it's not his religion, no matter how fascinating he finds it. And he will be unable to convey the thing unvarnished, for no matter how hard he tries, he cannot overcome his own latent Christianity to avoid sneering at Shiva.

The central paradox of Deus ex -- not democracy per se, but self government -- is alien to the Canadian most basically because in the land of human rights tribunals, he doesn't really have self government. That is, the Canadian man is not allowed to govern himself. However far Americans have fallen (and we have fallen very far) the plain fact remains that just in our Bill of Rights alone we establish the basic assertion that certain rights are not guaranteed by government, but guaranteed against government. The mythology of American government is that it is not something we embrace, but something that we must begrudgingly tolerate. It is therefore a fertile breeding ground for conspiracies, and with good reason: if you were tasked with governing this mass of heavily armed lunatics, wouldn't you do all sorts of shit in secret and not tell people, and then when caught red-handed, lie about everything? I mean, how else are you supposed to rule these people?

The Canadian does not understand this. He can't. His approximation of the American conspiracy is going to be Swedish pulled pork.

On the other hand, most Americans get this, even if they despise it. Even if they've never believed a conspiracy theory in their life, they know what it could be like to to believe one, which is how it's possible to even do something like Deus Ex in the first place. Does Sheldon Pocotti or Warren Specter believe in any of the shit they wrote? Who knows. But it doesn't matter, because they grew up here and they know the national mythology. In much the same way that a former Catholic school student can likely tell you who wrote Acts of the Apostles, even if he's now an atheist. It's in his blood.

Now a counter argument here might be that I am being entirely too cynical, that a good writer of any nationality can adequately capture the uniqueness of this American mythology and, in that vein, tell a great yarn. I'll concede that this is possible, but I would pose a simple question: if they can, why haven't they? Look at the first Deus Ex by Eidos Montreal, and you will see the problems almost right away.

First, we should point out that apparently DX:HR was written by Mary DeMarle, who went to an American university but has lived and worked in Canada her whole career. Already we have a problem, in that conspiracy theories are for the most part the purview and wheelhouse of disaffected young men who have the time and inclination to delve into esoteric subject matter with the ferocity of an autist. And all of the best government-related conspiracy theories come from those men who have served the government (intelligence services, US military, and so on) which of course leans heavily male. It is no surprise that the Canadian version of Deus Ex is therefore missing all of the intensity of its predecessor. The story in DX:HR was anything but a triumph, and while defeat may be an orphan, his biological mother is an American woman living in Canada.

As mentioned above, the chief weakness of DX:HR's story is the Canadian (of if you prefer, leftist) preachiness of the story. There's nothing new here, nothing original - the tech billionaires are all jerks (surprise!), augmentation technology can be used to control people without their consent (surprise!), the only "good" billionaire, Darrow, was actually trying to help mankind but those evil capitalists subverted his technology (surprise!) and by the way you can tell he is a good guy because is trying to fix global warming!

This lack of originality results in a senseless aping of the first game. Instead of walking through Area 51 with three entities asking you to swing things their particular way, you walk through Panchea with four options. Instead of the Helios project, someone has merged with the Hyron project. Instead of your pilot Jock getting blown up, your pilot Faridah gets ambushed. And so on. These are not callbacks. These are robocalls.

The story also betrays an almost comical view of the US in several regards, once again giving the impression that it was written by someone who doesn't live here, and who has also never met a cop (or a billionaire, for that matter). Your first mission as an augmented Jensen has you raiding a corporate office wherein you can choose to solve a hostage crisis peacefully, or with violence. That's all fine, as far as it goes, but the violent path will put you in a position of being scolded by some SWAT team members. I remember the first time I played this game and laughing out loud at such an adorably naïve portrayal of American SWAT police officers, who in real life are mostly roided-out wannabe Navy seals and who, in the history of American policing, have never criticized anyone, ever, for excessive use of force. I remember thinking: has the person who wrote this ever met a fucking cop in the United States? Ever?

There are other, even more ridiculous tells, such as the hilariously-named "Motor City Bangers" and "Derelict Row Ballers." Not only are these names ridiculous (seriously, just google a list of US gang names to see how it's done), the story reveals that unlike every other gang in American history, these are not gangs based on race and/or ethnicity, but instead are based on who is augmented and who is not.

One of two things is happening here: 1) The Canadians don't know that every gang in the US is based on race or ethnicity, and they think a bunch of street-level thugs would organize themselves around a religious fervor that is either for or against augmentations, all while still keeping the trappings and mannerisms of a 21st century urban American gang or 2) Their politics will not let them make a racially segregated gang, so they made up this silly horseshit instead. In either case, is hilariously inept, betraying a complete ignorance of the most basic component of American urban strife.

Anyway, all of this pales in comparison to the chief complaint: that the failure of DX:HR is that it misses the most crucial aspect of not the conspiracy theory (though it does fumble this) but instead the conspiracy itself. For despite all our haranguing and browbeating of "Big Tech," and despite the power these companies undeniably wield, they are not the unscalable edifice that is the US Government; that is to say, they cannot send the FBI to your house to shoot you on your front lawn. As the events of even the last few days have shown, Big Tech is a toady of the US Government, a stool, a simp, a willing partner. Practically, another arm of the US government. Maybe an eccentric, rocket-building, electric car making, multi-billionaire can wrest one (one!) of these tech tools from the government for the astronomical fee of 45 billion dollars, and maybe that will do something. But probably, it will not make a fucking dent.

Which brings us back to the central theme of all the great American conspiracies, those of the government against its own people. DX:HR is at it's core just leftist railing against "The Corporations," and never deals with the much more salient issue of government. The reason for this -- my argument for it anyway -- is that Canadians in 2011 were unable to conceive of government in this fashion and 11 years later would only be able to conceive of it from the leftist's perspective. To their credit, burdened with the lore of needing to turn FEMA into a bad guy, they did an okay job with that part. But FEMA takes a back seat here, and instead nearly the entire story is exhausted on the chicanery of corporate espionage and warfare.

As far as any new games in the franchise, color me skeptical. The Canadian woman in charge of the story is not in any way suited to tackle the philosophically thorny issue of an overbearing and corrupt US Government, and especially not now. Everything coming out of Eidos Montreal is destined to be some shade of safe progressive propaganda, for in 2022 the very idea of a conspiracy in which your government -- American or Canadian -- is complicit will be targeted as "dangerous." I don't think they have the stomach for it, but even if they did they likely wouldn't do it for simple reason that it doesn't align with their politics. Any game worthy of the name "Deus Ex" will have to grapple with the conundrum of the God From the Machine, but you can't do that if you think the Machine is your friend and you don't believe in God.
 
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RobotSquirrel

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It is very unlikely that a Canadian studio and/or Canadian developers and writers can produce a worthy sequel to the first Deus Ex (2000)
Having read your reasons I don't really agree just on the basis of where they come from. You'd be right based on political ideology sure but you're implying that because Canada is still in the commonwealth and not a republic it's therefore not a true democracy.
Its not because of where they're from its because of who they're employed by, as long as they're working for a AAA publisher you're going to end up with this result. The reason why Deus Ex 1 worked was that John Romero said to Warren Spector, I give you total unrestrictive creative control to make your dream game with whatever means necessary.
They got to make that game, Eidos was pissed though because it cost a lot to make and barely left enough in the tank for a sequel. When it came to making a sequel they'd ended up writing a story no different to Human Revolution, that it completely forgot the reason the first game was so successful.
It has nothing to do with being Canadian because the same team that made the first game from Austin made the exact same mistakes themselves. It is the AAA publisher model that restricts the freedom to tell the stories you want. In the modern era Deus Ex 1 cannot be made because the publisher would be too afraid of the negative PR they'd receive for offending someone, after all, look at what's happening to GTA.

I imagine what Deus Ex could've ended up like had it missed its release date and come out after 9/11, most of the terrorist stuff would have had to be completely re-written, the NSF and silhouette would have been the bad guys. It would have been completely gutted of its conspiracy theories because it was a touchy subject.
Thank god it came out when it did!
 

DeepOcean

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Keep the art design, keep the sound team as the sound tracks are really good, keep the design team that worked on the last DLC, fire the writers and hire someone that is capable of making interesting characters with motivations that arent boring/retarded that is what I feel about it. Aug lives matter is the sort of thing that deserve a gold medal on the bad writing special olympics.

Also, dont go full retarded... I mean...open world, have three hubs, one big western, one big eastern and a shorter ending one to wrap up. A hub the size of a Cyberbug district with good verticality, probably less, is more than enough.

However, after Saints Row, I totally expect this to end on a nuclear disaster, if it eventually is going to suck, hope they cancel it as that is what Embracer should have done with Saints Row.
 
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NecroLord

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I have said it in the past but I'll reiterate it here. It is very unlikely that a Canadian studio and/or Canadian developers and writers can produce a worthy sequel to the first Deus Ex (2000), for a variety of reasons. In fact, we might not see a decent sequel ever, which is only slightly less unlikely. I'll attack each of these separately, starting with the latter.

First and foremost, coming to grips with the core themes of the first Deus Ex means engaging with what is most likely the greatest vehicle of American mythology: the conspiracy theory. If we didn't invent conspiracy theories here, we refined them into their current crystalline state of perfection. From the Kennedy assassination to fake moon landings to MK Ultra, the FBI framing Martin Luther King, the USS Liberty, FDR allowing Pearl Harbor to be bombed, Truman taking out Patton, Operation PAPERCLIP, Ruby Ridge, Jeffrey Epstein, UFOs (so many fucking UFOs!), Area 51, the Illuminati, MJ12, 9/11, fluoride in the water, crisis actors, the 2017 Las Vegas shooting, magnetic strips in 20 dollar bills, the United States is a corporation, the CIA inventing AIDS, QAnon, Pizzagate, Lizard People, Operation High Jump, aliens in Antarctica, Project Sunshine, and Bigfoot. We have the best conspiracy theories, and the most. And importantly, all of the really serious conspiracy theories, the ones that inspire an almost religious fervor in their adherents and believers, are about government control. This is hugely relevant.

So what, exactly, is Deus Ex about? A lot of people think it is about human bioengineering, the ethics of science, the ethics of fighting terrorism. And maybe those are a part of the story, but they're expressions of a greater, overarching theme. The primal, moral question the story attempts to grapple with is about control: control over man's evolution and, therefore, control over man himself. More specifically, it is about the locus of that control, whether or not authoritarianism is justified. It's a critique of self-government, demonstrating that once technology reaches a certain point, democracy becomes a liability for the survival of the species; at some point, you either ditch self-government or you ditch technology. The only way to have both is through a continuous and unrelenting stream of lies, propaganda, and repression. Your average human being is too frail, too greedy, to govern himself in the face of such temptations as are offered by high technology.

In order to tell this story, Ion Storm had to make up a fantastical mythological canon that borrowed from the most deep-rooted and, some would say, far-fetched American conspiracy theories. But, uhh . . . well, what does that paragraph above sound like to you? Because to me it sounds an awful lot like 2022.

So the first problem emerges, which is that a modern conspiracy theory video game will have to be very clever in order to bypass the simply unbelievable times we are living in, or one might say "enduring," right now. That's a tall order for a gifted writer of any persuasion, but it is almost impossible for the leftist, which brings us to a second issue: it is highly likely that any conspiracy theory-focused game made in 2022 will be made by a left-of-center, if not hard left, writer or studio. Which means it is also higly likely that any story will veer, eventually, into undisguised moralizing.

In much the same way as the Eidos Montreal Deus Ex games, leftist pandering on issues such as economic inequality and climate change will find themselves at the front of the story. It is easy to imagine that other leftist theology -- for example, the entire panoply of trans nonsense -- will find a natural home in the metahumanity suggested by, say, nanotechnology. The first Deus Ex, which is to say the only decent Deus Ex, reveled in the opposite of this mentality: This is why at the end of JC's first mission, he gets a lecture from the commander about the shift from self-employment to wage-based employment. It's the shift from Jefferson's agrarian citizen-soldier to FDR's New Deal wage slave. JC's enemies in the NSF are fighting the consolidation of government power, the latest in a long history of patriotic American rebellion. On the contrary, what aspirations are leftists capable of arguing for at this point? Socialized health care? It's a fucking joke to even ask.

Beyond the inevitable preachiness, however, lies a deeper problem. Conspiracy theories are by their nature subversive and they traffic in distrust against the edifices of society, the institutions. This was easier to swallow when our institutions were nominally neutral or inoffensively conservative, but now, in 2022, with every salient institution infested with leftist ideology, there is precious little for a leftist to subvert -- the only possible conspiracy theory here is that leftist institutions are secretly not as leftist as they should be, are insufficiently left because of some hidden nefarious force! The leftist version of a happy ending would be JC Denton fusing with Helios and then ushering in a socialist utopia. Or JC Denton working with the Illuminati, and then ushering in a socialist utopia. Or JC Denton causing the collapse, and society now freed from it's capitalist overlords, will evolve into a socialist utopia. To the leftist, the only possible conspiracy theory is the one that retards further leftism and, once removed, will see the utopia arrive.

To put this all another way, those most likely to get the greenlight to make a new Deus Ex will be your garden variety shitlibs, and they simply do not have the turn the of mind necessary to do this topic justice, as their worldview prevents it. In much the same way that they confuse a man dressed as a plastic bimbo and engaged in over-the-top sexualized behavior as embodying the essence of a woman, they may mimic the trappings of a conspiracy theory without understanding its soul. At best, they can produce a delicate, fragile facsimile of a conspiracy theory that, combined with perfume, lots of booze, and your desire to see what you want, will trick you for a few hours. But in the cold light of morning, that Adam's apple will reveal itself and you'll know you've been fucking had.

How do we get out of this quandary? The most immediate and obvious solution is to ask a non-American studio to do it, but of course this runs us into the second problem, which the Canadian versions of Deus Ex have so amply demonstrated: they just can't do it. It's like ordering New York pizza in London, or pulled pork in Sweden. These things might taste okay, but the toppings will be a little off, the bun a little bit weird. You'll always know you're not eating the real thing.

Every criticism to be leveled at the American left's inability to write a good conspiracy theory is therefore amplified in Canada. American mythology is steeped in conspiracy and rebellion, and despite the pervasiveness of leftist ideology in all of our institutions, there is still a healthy red-blooded streak of individualistic violence that runs through the American religion. Except for the extreme left, for example, most Americans are fine with shooting a home intruder, whether they're armed or not, as even the most liberal states have some version of a "stand your ground" law. Up north, the Canadian man defending his home may very well be hauled off to a ridiculous trial while the state comforts the burglar as a poor, misunderstood soul who was failed by society. In the US, I can shoot a guy in my living room for no other reason than he broke in at 2am and was trying to steal my vintage Voltron figures. Depending on the state I live in, I might not even go to a police station to make a statement. I'd be eating bacon and eggs for breakfast while the blood was still drying on the carpet.

This way of life is alien to the Canadian. He cannot conceive of it, not really. Any story he tells of American conspiracy theories will be akin to a British historian explaining Hinduism; he might get all the facts right but it's not his religion, no matter how fascinating he finds it. And he will be unable to convey the thing unvarnished, for no matter how hard he tries, he cannot overcome his own latent Christianity to avoid sneering at Shiva.

The central paradox of Deus ex -- not democracy per se, but self government -- is alien to the Canadian most basically because in the land of human rights tribunals, he doesn't really have self government. That is, the Canadian man is not allowed to govern himself. However far Americans have fallen (and we have fallen very far) the plain fact remains that just in our Bill of Rights alone we establish the basic assertion that certain rights are not guaranteed by government, but guaranteed against government. The mythology of American government is that it is not something we embrace, but something that we must begrudgingly tolerate. It is therefore a fertile breeding ground for conspiracies, and with good reason: if you were tasked with governing this mass of heavily armed lunatics, wouldn't you do all sorts of shit in secret and not tell people, and then when caught red-handed, lie about everything? I mean, how else are you supposed to rule these people?

The Canadian does not understand this. He can't. His approximation of the American conspiracy is going to be Swedish pulled pork.

On the other hand, most Americans get this, even if they despise it. Even if they've never believed a conspiracy theory in their life, they know what it could be like to to believe one, which is how it's possible to even do something like Deus Ex in the first place. Does Sheldon Pocotti or Warren Specter believe in any of the shit they wrote? Who knows. But it doesn't matter, because they grew up here and they know the national mythology. In much the same way that a former Catholic school student can likely tell you who wrote Acts of the Apostles, even if he's now an atheist. It's in his blood.

Now a counter argument here might be that I am being entirely too cynical, that a good writer of any nationality can adequately capture the uniqueness of this American mythology and, in that vein, tell a great yarn. I'll concede that this is possible, but I would pose a simple question: if they can, why haven't they? Look at the first Deus Ex by Eidos Montreal, and you will see the problems almost right away.

First, we should point out that apparently DX:HR was written by Mary DeMarle, who went to an American university but has lived and worked in Canada her whole career. Already we have a problem, in that conspiracy theories are for the most part the purview and wheelhouse of disaffected young men who have the time and inclination to delve into esoteric subject matter with the ferocity of an autist. And all of the best government-related conspiracy theories come from those men who have served the government (intelligence services, US military, and so on) which of course leans heavily male. It is no surprise that the Canadian version of Deus Ex is therefore missing all of the intensity of its predecessor. The story in DX:HR was anything but a triumph, and while defeat may be an orphan, his biological mother is an American woman living in Canada.

As mentioned above, the chief weakness of DX:HR's story is the Canadian (of if you prefer, leftist) preachiness of the story. There's nothing new here, nothing original - the tech billionaires are all jerks (surprise!), augmentation technology can be used to control people without their consent (surprise!), the only "good" billionaire, Darrow, was actually trying to help mankind but those evil capitalists subverted his technology (surprise!) and by the way you can tell he is a good guy because is trying to fix global warming!

This lack of originality results in a senseless aping of the first game. Instead of walking through Area 51 with three entities asking you to swing things their particular way, you walk through Panchea with four options. Instead of the Helios project, someone has merged with the Hyron project. Instead of your pilot Jock getting blown up, your pilot Faridah gets ambushed. And so on. These are not callbacks. These are robocalls.

The story also betrays an almost comical view of the US in several regards, once again giving the impression that it was written by someone who doesn't live here, and who has also never met a cop (or a billionaire, for that matter). Your first mission as an augmented Jensen has you raiding a corporate office wherein you can choose to solve a hostage crisis peacefully, or with violence. That's all fine, as far as it goes, but the violent path will put you in a position of being scolded by some SWAT team members. I remember the first time I played this game and laughing out loud at such an adorably naïve portrayal of American SWAT police officers, who in real life are mostly roided-out wannabe Navy seals and who, in the history of American policing, have never criticized anyone, ever, for excessive use of force. I remember thinking: has the person who wrote this ever met a fucking cop in the United States? Ever?

There are other, even more ridiculous tells, such as the hilariously-named "Motor City Bangers" and "Derelict Row Ballers." Not only are these names ridiculous (seriously, just google a list of US gang names to see how it's done), the story reveals that unlike every other gang in American history, these are not gangs based on race and/or ethnicity, but instead are based on who is augmented and who is not.

One of two things is happening here: 1) The Canadians don't know that every gang in the US is based on race or ethnicity, and they think a bunch of street-level thugs would organize themselves around a religious fervor that is either for or against augmentations, all while still keeping the trappings and mannerisms of a 21st century urban American gang or 2) Their politics will not let them make a racially segregated gang, so they made up this silly horseshit instead. In either case, is hilariously inept, betraying a complete ignorance of the most basic component of American urban strife.

Anyway, all of this pales in comparison to the chief complaint: that the failure of DX:HR is that it misses the most crucial aspect of not the conspiracy theory (though it does fumble this) but instead the conspiracy itself. For despite all our haranguing and browbeating of "Big Tech," and despite the power these companies undeniably wield, they are not the unscalable edifice that is the US Government; that is to say, they cannot send the FBI to your house to shoot you on your front lawn. As the events of even the last few days have shown, Big Tech is a toady of the US Government, a stool, a simp, a willing partner. Practically, another arm of the US government. Maybe an eccentric, rocket-building, electric car making, multi-billionaire can wrest one (one!) of these tech tools from the government for the astronomical fee of 45 billion dollars, and maybe that will do something. But probably, it will not make a fucking dent.

Which brings us back to the central theme of all the great American conspiracies, those of the government against its own people. DX:HR is at it's core just leftist railing against "The Corporations," and never deals with the much more salient issue of government. The reason for this -- my argument for it anyway -- is that Canadians in 2011 were unable to conceive of government in this fashion and 11 years later would only be able to conceive of it from the leftist's perspective. To their credit, burdened with the lore of needing to turn FEMA into a bad guy, they did an okay job with that part. But FEMA takes a back seat here, and instead nearly the entire story is exhausted on the chicanery of corporate espionage and warfare.

As far as any new games in the franchise, color me skeptical. The Canadian woman in charge of the story is not in any way suited to tackle the philosophically thorny issue of an overbearing and corrupt US Government, and especially not now. Everything coming out of Eidos Montreal is destined to be some shade of safe progressive propaganda, for in 2022 the very idea of a conspiracy in which your government -- American or Canadian -- is complicit will be targeted as "dangerous." I don't think they have the stomach for it, but even if they did they likely wouldn't do it for simple reason that it doesn't align with their politics. Any game worthy of the name "Deus Ex" will have to grapple with the conundrum of the God From the Machine, but you can't do that if you think the Machine is your friend and you don't believe in God.
All of the endings in Deus Ex are pretty fucked up. Merging with Helios? You become a nanotechnological deity with access to every piece of data in the world. Bye bye free will. Illuminati? You return the world to its former status quo. A bunch of elites run the world,while the oblivious masses toil and struggle to make a living. The Dark Age ending? Yeah,pretty self explanatory.

Yeah,you americans and your conspiracies. My favorite one is one 80 year old Alzheimer ridden mummy actually winning an election. MOST POPULAR PRESIDENT EVAAAAR!
 

Alienman

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Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
As mentioned above, the chief weakness of DX:HR's story is the Canadian (of if you prefer, leftist) preachiness of the story. There's nothing new here, nothing original - the tech billionaires are all jerks (surprise!), augmentation technology can be used to control people without their consent (surprise!), the only "good" billionaire, Darrow, was actually trying to help mankind but those evil capitalists subverted his technology (surprise!) and by the way you can tell he is a good guy because is trying to fix global warming!
Darrow being good billionaire, I'm not sure about that. He threw mankind and with it augmenations in the gutter because he was jealous of those that could have it, since his body rejected augmentations. The global warning thing was just a rouse to get the attention of the world - to activate the disruption thing to make every augmented individual go completely loco.
 
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I have said it in the past but I'll reiterate it here. It is very unlikely that a Canadian studio and/or Canadian developers and writers can produce a worthy sequel to the first Deus Ex (2000), for a variety of reasons. In fact, we might not see a decent sequel ever, which is only slightly less unlikely. I'll attack each of these separately, starting with the latter.

...
Interesting! What do you think about NORCO? I finished it this weekend. Made by people who started doing a documentary about the same place, Americans. The game contains conspiracy theories, Christianity and other American themes. I thought this video gave a good insight into the game. Part 6 starts at 23:30 and is named "Cyberpunk is today" and argues that it could be considered a cyperpunk game. Now sadly I don't think the tubemaker is aware of our more advanced terminology of the genre.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNX280h12Mg&ab_channel=RagnarRox
 

grimace

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is this another thread that will reach 1000 pages before the game is even out/before it gets canceled. who give a fuck. the game will release or it wont. who gives a fuck about all these little dripfeeds of news from jason faggot schreier and whatever other speculation and "leaks" (marketing tactic) from bozos

Yes, we will treat this thread as an instant message chat room.

Notice how I didn't bring up Sheldon Pacotti's influences because its a bit more detailed and harder to track down specifics.

Let's talk about Sheldon Pacotti.



March 1, 2012

Eidos Montreal said you did some consulting work on Deus Ex: Human Revolution -- how much did you change or suggest be changed from their original design or story?

I was honored to have a seat at the table during a couple of the early story-design meetings, and I was able to provide some feedback on a draft of the script. They were very open to input, and I feel like I got my two cents on the table, but in truth they had drawn a good bead on the Deus Ex 3 story without any help from me. I and some of the other original Deus Ex team members had felt for a while that what the franchise needed was a prequel in order to get back to the near-future grit of the original, so I was pretty delighted after trudging through a foot of snow in Montreal to hear that this was the direction they had chosen on their own.

I was in the loop for continuity questions throughout, but by the end the questions were getting so detailed that I was tracking down original level designers in Austin, who themselves didn't know the answers. So by the end the team in Eidos Montreal had become the experts on the Deus Ex universe.
 

RobotSquirrel

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I mean a lot of that probably has to do with the fact that the original Deus Ex by that point was now over a decade old and Sheldon had moved on as had most of the developers of the original game, plus be mindful that the team wasn't on the best of terms either, Invisible War was a fairly bad time for everyone.
What exists in terms of lore is readily available in the Deus Ex bible, so its not like Sheldon could offer more than what was in the Deus Ex bible.
 

grimace

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Will Mary DeMarle return to work on New Deus Ex?


Mary DeMarle, who previously worked for Eidos-Montréal, is known for her work as a narrative designer and lead writer on 2011’s Deus Ex: Human Revolution, 2016’s Deus Ex: Mankind Divided.

DeMarle’s career goes as far back as the early 2000s, having also worked as a writer on games such as Myst 3: Exile and Homeworld 2.

ECGC 2014 Keynote Mary DeMarle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QZrymQM0s0
 

Gargaune

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I was honored to have a seat at the table
Why do modern people keep talking like this? Knighthoods have been accepted with less slavering pomp and it's even more bewildering when you realise he's supposedly "honoured" to be consulted by the people continuing what he started.
 

Dhaze

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The story also betrays an almost comical view of the US in several regards, once again giving the impression that it was written by someone who doesn't live here, and who has also never met a cop (or a billionaire, for that matter). Your first mission as an augmented Jensen has you raiding a corporate office wherein you can choose to solve a hostage crisis peacefully, or with violence. That's all fine, as far as it goes, but the violent path will put you in a position of being scolded by some SWAT team members. I remember the first time I played this game and laughing out loud at such an adorably naïve portrayal of American SWAT police officers, who in real life are mostly roided-out wannabe Navy seals and who, in the history of American policing, have never criticized anyone, ever, for excessive use of force. I remember thinking: has the person who wrote this ever met a fucking cop in the United States? Ever?

That there is one of the details irked me the most when I played HR. I distinctly remember saying, out loud, something to the effect of "Oh my god how fucking cute is that? They think a SWAT guy in this situation would chastise Adam about his actions."

In this exact situation, i.e. with hostages and a bomb, I'm not even sure if I could believe that kind of silly, moralising reaction coming from a french GIGN guy, despite their tactics and motto having much to do with the preservation of life.

There are other, even more ridiculous tells, such as the hilariously-named "Motor City Bangers" and "Derelict Row Ballers." Not only are these names ridiculous (seriously, just google a list of US gang names to see how it's done), the story reveals that unlike every other gang in American history, these are not gangs based on race and/or ethnicity, but instead are based on who is augmented and who is not.

One of two things is happening here: 1) The Canadians don't know that every gang in the US is based on race or ethnicity, and they think a bunch of street-level thugs would organize themselves around a religious fervor that is either for or against augmentations, all while still keeping the trappings and mannerisms of a 21st century urban American gang or 2) Their politics will not let them make a racially segregated gang, so they made up this silly horseshit instead. In either case, is hilariously inept, betraying a complete ignorance of the most basic component of American urban strife.

Regarding the gang names, exactly as with the SWAT guy I had the "Oh dear lord it's so cute," reaction. Bangers, or Ballers? If pertaining to gang members, those are terms coming straight out of a grandma's mouth.

As for the rest... I live in Belgium; have never stepped outside of our little fries-and-beers-and-waffles confine of the world. Yet even I know that pretty much every single gang in the US is, at its core, race- or ethnicity-based. So I can't conceive that a Canadian of all people—what with all the US-Canada proximity and its resulting cultural bleed-through—would not know that.

So I do think you pointed out one of the cause of the gang problem in HR: the devs' politics didn't allow them to segregate based on race/ethnicity/origin, even when doing so was perfectly appropriate and even required. (this makes Jensen's "You all look alike to me" faux-pas all the funnier)
But more so, throughout HR and MD I had the distinct impression they were simply going for the angle that conflicts of races proper were pretty much over and done with, having been wholly replaced by augs vs. non-augs. Shame they chose to take the simplistic, naïve approach to what is otherwise an interesting subject.

For the somewhat unrelated anecdote, I once attempted to do a playthrough of HR with the developer commentary, but had to stop after a few hours because one of the main dev and commentator was an insufferable douchebag. If I recall correctly (I might not, but I think I do), at one point he was almost bragging about taking artwork from his then-girlfriend, to use as various posters plastered over Detroits' walls—and not paying a single cent to said girlfriend, nor even mentionning what he had done.

I was honored to have a seat at the table
Why do modern people keep talking like this? Knighthoods have been accepted with less slavering pomp and it's even more bewildering when you realise he's supposedly "honoured" to be consulted by the people continuing what he started.

I call that 'modern polite, overcreamy'. One of the most off-putting attitudes I can think of. Somewhat akin to when some Youtuber invites a dev or other on his channel, and cue the Youtuber and the dev thanking/congratulating/felating each other every five sentences.

For some reason I now have Will Wheaton's highly-slappable face in mind.
 

taxalot

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Calling it, It's going to be a soft reboot sequel to Mankind Divided. You won't play Jensen, but you'll meet him and he'll tell you the rest of his story in three lines of dialog.
 

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